Lets Put It In Perspective!
Discussion
Dear P/H's
I posted this as a reply on the 'old lady/number plate screw' thread, but decided that a lot of what is in it applies to a lot of threads and questions you guys raise.
So I thought I would post it as a separate topic to reach a wider audience! Bit heavy for Sunday Morning I know..
[quote:robocop]
Listen Guys, put this all in perspective..
Policing is a major undertaking that need thousands of resourses (just look at your Council Tax Bill!). There are many different and specialised departments who are out there tracking down 'real' criminals and dealing with more serious crimes and investigations - NCS, Major Crime Support Units, Tactical Firearms Units etc.
Crime and the law, or mainly the level of burdon of proof we require to secure a conviction, has become ever more complicated and need sophisticated methods to achieve results.
The uniformed bobby is, like it or not, only a part of the whole team. They provide the assurance the public want in their community, but on their own won't achieve a great deal in the way of serious crime - although they can often initiate the start of an investigation.
They are often, and more commonly, the more junior in service, but they have to cut their teeth on the basics first. The same bobby who booked you up the other week for having a dodgy number plate or whatever, will be rolling round on the ground with some piss head in front of a nightclub at 2 in the morning the following Friday night getting his head kicked in, or comforting some pensioner that has had her house ransacked, or calling on someone to tell them their loved one has been killed - so cut them a bit of slack, please!
The minor Traffic offence's thing is a tiny part of Policing. All(most) of you I presume, are law abiding members of society, and keen motorists. So naturally you focus on these aspects, because that is sometimes your only contact with the Police. If that turns out to be a bad experience and alters your view of us, then I am sorry that your were not dealt with correctly and apologise. Our job is not helped by the media who just look for stories like the 'wrong coloured number plate screw' one, to milk to death!
That is a shame, because the majority of officers just want to do a good job and return a bit of law and order to this corroding society.
We are out there getting the muggers, rapists and murderers.. but these scumbags also use cars, and that gives us an 'in' to their whereabouts. You would be amazed at how some major criminals have been caught by a routine stop. Yes, sometimes you lot will get caught up in this, but heh, think about it? quite a few things in life are petty...and as we know -life's a bitch. Bad driving kills people too, so it won't go away off the agenda I am afraid!
Now I know a ton of you will be straight on your keyboards!, but I am just trying to say 'put it in perspective' a little.
All the best
Phew, need a cuppa now! The time its taken me to type this the thread is probably closed!
[/quote]
I posted this as a reply on the 'old lady/number plate screw' thread, but decided that a lot of what is in it applies to a lot of threads and questions you guys raise.
So I thought I would post it as a separate topic to reach a wider audience! Bit heavy for Sunday Morning I know..
[quote:robocop]
Listen Guys, put this all in perspective..
Policing is a major undertaking that need thousands of resourses (just look at your Council Tax Bill!). There are many different and specialised departments who are out there tracking down 'real' criminals and dealing with more serious crimes and investigations - NCS, Major Crime Support Units, Tactical Firearms Units etc.
Crime and the law, or mainly the level of burdon of proof we require to secure a conviction, has become ever more complicated and need sophisticated methods to achieve results.
The uniformed bobby is, like it or not, only a part of the whole team. They provide the assurance the public want in their community, but on their own won't achieve a great deal in the way of serious crime - although they can often initiate the start of an investigation.
They are often, and more commonly, the more junior in service, but they have to cut their teeth on the basics first. The same bobby who booked you up the other week for having a dodgy number plate or whatever, will be rolling round on the ground with some piss head in front of a nightclub at 2 in the morning the following Friday night getting his head kicked in, or comforting some pensioner that has had her house ransacked, or calling on someone to tell them their loved one has been killed - so cut them a bit of slack, please!
The minor Traffic offence's thing is a tiny part of Policing. All(most) of you I presume, are law abiding members of society, and keen motorists. So naturally you focus on these aspects, because that is sometimes your only contact with the Police. If that turns out to be a bad experience and alters your view of us, then I am sorry that your were not dealt with correctly and apologise. Our job is not helped by the media who just look for stories like the 'wrong coloured number plate screw' one, to milk to death!
That is a shame, because the majority of officers just want to do a good job and return a bit of law and order to this corroding society.
We are out there getting the muggers, rapists and murderers.. but these scumbags also use cars, and that gives us an 'in' to their whereabouts. You would be amazed at how some major criminals have been caught by a routine stop. Yes, sometimes you lot will get caught up in this, but heh, think about it? quite a few things in life are petty...and as we know -life's a bitch. Bad driving kills people too, so it won't go away off the agenda I am afraid!
Now I know a ton of you will be straight on your keyboards!, but I am just trying to say 'put it in perspective' a little.
All the best
Phew, need a cuppa now! The time its taken me to type this the thread is probably closed!
[/quote]
OK thanks for that robocop. I accept most of what you say, but could I just comment as follows:
I appreciate that policing requires considerable resources, and I have looked at our Council Tax Bill. Last year the North Yorkshire Police element of it went up by 76% and in the current year it has increased by a further 9.9%.
It seem to me that during that past few years (maybe 20 shall we say?) the law making and law enforcing machinery has become hugely more complex, and it is now absorbing resources out of all proportion to the result it is achieveing for the decent law abiding public in general. This is not the fault of the police service overall, though some people in the higher echelons are working to an order of priorities that I do think are right. As a result I do not consider that the uniformed bobby is providing the assurance that we want in our communities, but it is not his/her fault.
Obviously all police offices have to deal with a wide variety of situations, and some of these will be very difficult indeed, to put it mildly, especially where violent individuals are involved. If I had my way I would lighten your task in that regard, but some of you might be shocked if were to elaborate further. On the other hand some policing matters are easy, most notably those involving motoring misdemeaners that some of us (me included) feel are trifling matters, not justifying the expenditure of significant resources.
It has long been my view that the event most likely to bring normal decent people into contact with a police officer will be in connection with some probably minor transgression with a motor vehicle, in which case they will probably be a penalty of some kind. On the other hand we hear too many stories relating to cases where the police are reported to have shown little or no interest in even attempting to deal with wilful and deliberate crimes of the sort that inevitably cause harm to people. That is why, to the layman, the balance so often feels to be wrong.
One little detail that would help is where members of the public are being dealt with in respect of, for example, relatively minor motoring offences, they are treated with proper courtesy, and do not receive the heavy handed approach that might be more appropriate to a serious and perhaps violent criminal.
I trust you will not feel those to be unfair and unbalanced comments on the situation, but if you do I'm sure you will let me know.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I appreciate that policing requires considerable resources, and I have looked at our Council Tax Bill. Last year the North Yorkshire Police element of it went up by 76% and in the current year it has increased by a further 9.9%.
It seem to me that during that past few years (maybe 20 shall we say?) the law making and law enforcing machinery has become hugely more complex, and it is now absorbing resources out of all proportion to the result it is achieveing for the decent law abiding public in general. This is not the fault of the police service overall, though some people in the higher echelons are working to an order of priorities that I do think are right. As a result I do not consider that the uniformed bobby is providing the assurance that we want in our communities, but it is not his/her fault.
Obviously all police offices have to deal with a wide variety of situations, and some of these will be very difficult indeed, to put it mildly, especially where violent individuals are involved. If I had my way I would lighten your task in that regard, but some of you might be shocked if were to elaborate further. On the other hand some policing matters are easy, most notably those involving motoring misdemeaners that some of us (me included) feel are trifling matters, not justifying the expenditure of significant resources.
It has long been my view that the event most likely to bring normal decent people into contact with a police officer will be in connection with some probably minor transgression with a motor vehicle, in which case they will probably be a penalty of some kind. On the other hand we hear too many stories relating to cases where the police are reported to have shown little or no interest in even attempting to deal with wilful and deliberate crimes of the sort that inevitably cause harm to people. That is why, to the layman, the balance so often feels to be wrong.
One little detail that would help is where members of the public are being dealt with in respect of, for example, relatively minor motoring offences, they are treated with proper courtesy, and do not receive the heavy handed approach that might be more appropriate to a serious and perhaps violent criminal.
I trust you will not feel those to be unfair and unbalanced comments on the situation, but if you do I'm sure you will let me know.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
One little detail that would help is where members of the public are being dealt with in respect of, for example, relatively minor motoring offences, they are treated with proper courtesy, and do not receive the heavy handed approach that might be more appropriate to a serious and perhaps violent criminal.
I trust you will not feel those to be unfair and unbalanced comments on the situation, but if you do I'm sure you will let me know.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Not at all Dave. I posted this because I know a lot of you feel like that!
With regard the above quote, I think you are absolutely correct.
Being dealt with politely, correctly and fairly is what it is all about. Anything less is not just bad policing, but bad manners too. I think it applies to any 'Service Industry' and like them, we have our 'Little Hitlers' and 'Power Junkies' too..unfortunately! My point is, that this is NOT our main focus on Policing....despite articles like the one in the Mail on Sunday(today) making out that is all we do.
Rgds
As said already, the BiB on the street aren't primarily responsible for the alienation that exists and is growing between the police and the public. It is indeed minor motoring ofences like wrong colour studs on number plates plus a safe few mph over a too-low limit that's damaging relationships. Here's an example from my local rag's letters pages this month:
WE STILL SEE FEW BOBBIES
- 06 August 2004
With the introduction of community support officers and now civilian detention officers to free up police offices for other duties, I was wondering where they have all gone? They don't appear to be patrolling our streets.
My local police station does not seem to deal with crime any longer.
Name supplied
The response, not yet available online, suggested that the writer should look on motorway bridges, lay-bys on A-roads, and side tracks on minor roads, where the police could be found in numbers exercising their new role as tax collectors by proxy.
I don't think the letter writer or the person who replied weer having a dig at the man or woman on the beat, but the senior ranks who make policy decisions.
Until the senior officers get a grip and reject Tiny Bliar's anti-car crusade then sadly respect for the police as a whole will continue to plummet. Hopefully the BiB themselves do occasionally have experiences that lead to discussions with their shiney that begin "permission to speak freely..."
WE STILL SEE FEW BOBBIES
- 06 August 2004
With the introduction of community support officers and now civilian detention officers to free up police offices for other duties, I was wondering where they have all gone? They don't appear to be patrolling our streets.
My local police station does not seem to deal with crime any longer.
Name supplied
The response, not yet available online, suggested that the writer should look on motorway bridges, lay-bys on A-roads, and side tracks on minor roads, where the police could be found in numbers exercising their new role as tax collectors by proxy.
I don't think the letter writer or the person who replied weer having a dig at the man or woman on the beat, but the senior ranks who make policy decisions.
Until the senior officers get a grip and reject Tiny Bliar's anti-car crusade then sadly respect for the police as a whole will continue to plummet. Hopefully the BiB themselves do occasionally have experiences that lead to discussions with their shiney that begin "permission to speak freely..."
Streetcop said:
What a horse called streetcop?
Yep..BBQ went very well...I finished half a bottle of vodka...so as i'm pratically tee-total normally, I was as pissed as a newt.
Feel ok now..12.55pm next day, so I think vodka suits me ok.
Street
Yep!...you came in 5th!
So not so many
next time!
Will keep this thread clear of chat now, as I expect to get a few takers!!
All the best
robocop said:
My point is, that this is NOT our main focus on Policing....despite articles like the one in the Mail on Sunday(today) making out that is all we do.
Rgds
Ah - but it makes for entertaining reading and sells papers
They have a go at my profession as well - according to the press - I do not wash my hands between patients, gob germs all over them, inflict MRSA on them as soon as they foot in the wards - and seek to kill at least 40% by fumbled treatment - owing to fact "that doctors are clueless, negligent ...." blah- blah- blah!
Teachers? Fair game as well!
But I was not amused when a policeman said in a radio phone-in that he did not agree with the working time directive for a junior doctors. He compared his working life with ours - suggesting that there was "nothing to complain about!"
There is no comparison with shift work and a constant 80 hours on work whereby a wrong diagnosis or simplest mistake in theatre through exhaustion can kill. (Admit I had jolly wind-up session with 968 elsewhere on this subject
He blamed my generation (not that old ) for the problem - and my generation were convinced the lot before us "had it in for us!" ) However, you still cannot compare your shift work with the work load of a junior doctor. 100-125 hour working weeks was norm when I qualified. One of life's mysteries to me is how come I did not kill anyone in that state.
- Even with the EU Working Time Directive - the juniors are still putting in longer hours than most others. They have to study at same time - for exams which have impossible pass rates - and you not allowed multiple attempts either. Not easy to continue their training and guide them through when they are "dead on their feet" either.
Still - the press like to claim we are not delivering either ....
And yes - the wife teases me about this when she reads these stories.
Wimmin
Streetcop said:
What a horse called streetcop?
Yep..BBQ went very well...I finished half a bottle of vodka...so as i'm pratically tee-total normally, I was as pissed as a newt.
Feel ok now..12.55pm next day, so I think vodka suits me ok.
Street
Wow! That is what I call "baptism by fire"
Single malts - much more civilised ....
I think the media have a go at every profession - mistakes are news.
Anyway, to return to Robocop's original post, I've seen the routine turn drastic in a moment. We were doing a traffic survey (police stop 4 or 5 drivers, we ask "where have you come from, where are you going, why did you use this route" type stuff) and our cop spotted, further back the queue, a car with no tax disc... then he clocked the driver... a few words in his radio, a casual stroll past the interviewers and seconds later he hauls this guy bodily out of his car and was rolling on the ground for a couple of minutes till a dog van turned up... turns out the guy was wanted for armed robbery or something... bloody impressive stuff at the time!
Yer uniformed lane vigilantes couldn't (and probably wouldn't) do that...
Anyway, to return to Robocop's original post, I've seen the routine turn drastic in a moment. We were doing a traffic survey (police stop 4 or 5 drivers, we ask "where have you come from, where are you going, why did you use this route" type stuff) and our cop spotted, further back the queue, a car with no tax disc... then he clocked the driver... a few words in his radio, a casual stroll past the interviewers and seconds later he hauls this guy bodily out of his car and was rolling on the ground for a couple of minutes till a dog van turned up... turns out the guy was wanted for armed robbery or something... bloody impressive stuff at the time!
Yer uniformed lane vigilantes couldn't (and probably wouldn't) do that...
tvrgit said:
he hauls this guy bodily out of his car and was rolling on the ground for a couple of minutes till a dog van turned up... turns out the guy was wanted for armed robbery or something... bloody impressive stuff at the time!
good result. Without such a traffic stop, 4/5 cars etc, perhaps the criminal wouldn't have been stopped. As for recent whining about being held up for 30 mins...I'm sure decent laaw abiding members of the public wouldn't mind waiting every now and then if it meant that sort of criminal could be caught. (as well as other minor offences) [quote]Yer uniformed lane vigilantes couldn't (and probably wouldn't) do that...[/quote]
Don't know what you mean exactly by that. If you're implying that Road Traffic Police wouldn't do that, then you're totally wrong. A copper is a copper. You only have to recall several months ago, the officer shot and killed by the hitman up north. The american fellow that was on the run for a while afterwards. Well the officer killed was Trafpol.
Street
robocop said:
Crime and the law, or mainly the level of burdon of proof we require to secure a conviction, has become ever more complicated and need sophisticated methods to achieve results.
Cop in family keeps telling us that his paperwork is on trial when he gets to court - so fair comment
robocop said:
They are often, and more commonly, the more junior in service, but they have to cut their teeth on the basics first. The same bobby who booked you up the other week for having a dodgy number plate or whatever, will be rolling round on the ground with some piss head in front of a nightclub at 2 in the morning the following Friday night getting his head kicked in, or comforting some pensioner that has had her house ransacked, or calling on someone to tell them their loved one has been killed - so cut them a bit of slack, please!
I can argue same for my junior doctors. But our guys in A&E are dealing with very nasty customers too - and no-one seems to bother. Am not A&E - but have good colleagues in the department who tell me that getting police to turn up to a fracas is like asking for divine intervention
About the pensioner - you seldom turn up to a burglary - and when you do - it is days later. That is based on my own experience and from experiences of other relatives - both mine and Wildy's!
Yes, I also dish out bad news. Never easy telling someone and relatives their days are numbered - and I have to use judgement as to whether they can handle this news or not.
Have also been on the receiving end of the BiB's knock at the door - and the BiB (not a junior) at the time was very compassionate and helpful.
robocop said:
The minor Traffic offence's thing is a tiny part of Policing. All(most) of you I presume, are law abiding members of society, and keen motorists. So naturally you focus on these aspects, because that is sometimes your only contact with the Police. If that turns out to be a bad experience and alters your view of us, then I am sorry that your were not dealt with correctly and apologise. Our job is not helped by the media who just look for stories like the 'wrong coloured number plate screw' one, to milk to death!
As I mentioned - the press like a good story. Fortunately - we know several coppers personally - so we know the other side of the coin.
However, there are bad apples - such as the one of moved in house next door to an elderly aunt. WPC repeatedly blocks Aunty's driveway with her car - and is very unladylike when asked to move her vehicle - as I found out for myself on one visit.
Still - funny old world!
Right - m'off - Golf course awaits ....
Ted.
I can fully appreciate, understand and accept your initial comments Robocop. I, like most on here I'm sure, was brought up to respect the Police and the Law. Indeed, also like many on this forum, I have at times gone out of my way to help the Police, report an incident etc if I thought it may assist the Police in carrying out their duties.
Unfortunately you are the Public Face of the Police Force and the thousands who work behind the scenes. It is you who faces the wrath of the general public who feel that the Police are becoming too intrusive when you come into contact with them for whatever reason.
It would probably be true to say that your 'bosses' are the ones who should be castigated by joe public as it is they who direct your actions from day to day.
I personally believe that your situation will become an increasingly thankless task as, even the generally law abiding public, become more and more irate at the duties you are ordered to carry out.
I have been trying to analyse my personal feelings lately ...... because it honestly surprises me that I am fast becoming 'anti-police' or maybe it should be 'anti-establishment'. I'm fed up with my Snooper bleeping every 5 minutes, being stopped at least once a week to have my documentation checked etc etc. If a police car starts to follow me I now pull over to the side of the road and stop when safe and legal to do so. Twice in the past week the police car has also stopped and asked me why I pulled over (because they NOW logically 'suspect' me of something) - I asked them what I had done wrong and both of them said 'nothing' but then wanted to see my driving license etc.
Why do I pull over now? Very simply because I have read about, and know friends, who have been fined for being over the limit by one or two mph and I find it very hard to concentrate on traffic, road furniture, pedestrians, etc etc etc AND having to look at my speedo constantly to ensure I am not exceeding the limit by some ridiculously small amount. So I could drive much slower than the speed limit but then I could be nicked for obstruction (or whatever that driving offence would be).
Of course, this discussion and the implications impinges on all of us differently, but the very fact that you felt you had to write your initial comment is BECAUSE there is a strong groundswell of public opinion that is beginning to say 'enough is enough' - stop the 'Police State', stop the intrusion. If you don't have the support of us, the public, your ability to investigate and solve criminal activity will become much harder.
Let me just reiterate one point Robocop and Streetcop (and any other BiB's) - I have friends who are coppers and I am NOT directing my personal feelings at you guys - it's directed at your bosses and Government.
Dick (don't say it !! lol)
Unfortunately you are the Public Face of the Police Force and the thousands who work behind the scenes. It is you who faces the wrath of the general public who feel that the Police are becoming too intrusive when you come into contact with them for whatever reason.
It would probably be true to say that your 'bosses' are the ones who should be castigated by joe public as it is they who direct your actions from day to day.
I personally believe that your situation will become an increasingly thankless task as, even the generally law abiding public, become more and more irate at the duties you are ordered to carry out.
I have been trying to analyse my personal feelings lately ...... because it honestly surprises me that I am fast becoming 'anti-police' or maybe it should be 'anti-establishment'. I'm fed up with my Snooper bleeping every 5 minutes, being stopped at least once a week to have my documentation checked etc etc. If a police car starts to follow me I now pull over to the side of the road and stop when safe and legal to do so. Twice in the past week the police car has also stopped and asked me why I pulled over (because they NOW logically 'suspect' me of something) - I asked them what I had done wrong and both of them said 'nothing' but then wanted to see my driving license etc.
Why do I pull over now? Very simply because I have read about, and know friends, who have been fined for being over the limit by one or two mph and I find it very hard to concentrate on traffic, road furniture, pedestrians, etc etc etc AND having to look at my speedo constantly to ensure I am not exceeding the limit by some ridiculously small amount. So I could drive much slower than the speed limit but then I could be nicked for obstruction (or whatever that driving offence would be).
Of course, this discussion and the implications impinges on all of us differently, but the very fact that you felt you had to write your initial comment is BECAUSE there is a strong groundswell of public opinion that is beginning to say 'enough is enough' - stop the 'Police State', stop the intrusion. If you don't have the support of us, the public, your ability to investigate and solve criminal activity will become much harder.
Let me just reiterate one point Robocop and Streetcop (and any other BiB's) - I have friends who are coppers and I am NOT directing my personal feelings at you guys - it's directed at your bosses and Government.
Dick (don't say it !! lol)
tvrgit said:
Yer uniformed lane vigilantes couldn't (and probably wouldn't) do that...
streetcop said:
Don't know what you mean exactly by that.
I was talking about the proposals in another thread, to relieve the police of some traffic traffic duties, to a private enforcement scheme.
This guy WAS a Trafpol - ex-police driving instructor, the lot... I had been chatting with him earlier. I was making exactly the same point as you S
- police is police, no matter what division... private forces don't work.There's an interesting book review in today's Sunday Times. The book's author claims that the relationship of the public with the NHS has changed from the doctor being the expert to being a supplier with us as the customers.
This move has changed the "balance of power" such that the customer is king and can demand that the doctors behave in a particular way. So we get mad when we're made to wait in a doctor's surgery because we don't expect that in a service industy, for example.
The same is happening with our relationship with the police. No more are they the trusted experts who are free to take the appropriate action and we let them do it because we trust them (like the NCOs in Bad Boys Army -- they know what's necessary and have the authority to mete out punishment that would be unacceptable outside of the army). As a community we no longer let the police do what they're best at, prevent them acting as experts, and instead shackle them with restrictions. But it was always policing by consent, and that consent's dying out as an increasing number of unsupported laws are imposed on an unwilling public by politically motivated police forces.
Of course it's a two-way agreement. To some extent you could say that we shackle them because they're no longer trustworthy. But you could say that they're no longer trustworthy because they've been shackled for so long that they've switched off*. Either way, we don't have the police force that we used to, and much of the debate we have on PH seems to be around the way we want the police to act (the old way) compared to the way they act now -- the new way of targets, the letter of the law not the spirit, etc, etc.
That may be why the police car parking in a private car park has raised such ire here. In the old way, any police officer would have the unqualified respect of the public and would be sacrosant. In the new way, a police officer must obey the same letter of the law that he/she metes out, so tempers are raised.
The whole thing of where talivans should park is another facet of the same argument. If talivans had the respect of the public because they were upholding a respected law, they could park anywhere and receive full support. As it is they're hated because they're imposing a "police state" law and therefore fair game for anyone seeking to trap them breaking the law. It's "letter of the law" turned back on themselves.
Which way forward? Back to some sort of mutual respect between public and police, or will we continue with the police imposing political laws on an unwilling public? I can guess, though I don't like it.....
-----------------------
*another ST article about the removal of traffic signs/markings in a town in Holland points out that if you treat drivers as unthinking morons they behave like that. Spot on -- I wonder if Brunstrom is listening??
This move has changed the "balance of power" such that the customer is king and can demand that the doctors behave in a particular way. So we get mad when we're made to wait in a doctor's surgery because we don't expect that in a service industy, for example.
The same is happening with our relationship with the police. No more are they the trusted experts who are free to take the appropriate action and we let them do it because we trust them (like the NCOs in Bad Boys Army -- they know what's necessary and have the authority to mete out punishment that would be unacceptable outside of the army). As a community we no longer let the police do what they're best at, prevent them acting as experts, and instead shackle them with restrictions. But it was always policing by consent, and that consent's dying out as an increasing number of unsupported laws are imposed on an unwilling public by politically motivated police forces.
Of course it's a two-way agreement. To some extent you could say that we shackle them because they're no longer trustworthy. But you could say that they're no longer trustworthy because they've been shackled for so long that they've switched off*. Either way, we don't have the police force that we used to, and much of the debate we have on PH seems to be around the way we want the police to act (the old way) compared to the way they act now -- the new way of targets, the letter of the law not the spirit, etc, etc.
That may be why the police car parking in a private car park has raised such ire here. In the old way, any police officer would have the unqualified respect of the public and would be sacrosant. In the new way, a police officer must obey the same letter of the law that he/she metes out, so tempers are raised.
The whole thing of where talivans should park is another facet of the same argument. If talivans had the respect of the public because they were upholding a respected law, they could park anywhere and receive full support. As it is they're hated because they're imposing a "police state" law and therefore fair game for anyone seeking to trap them breaking the law. It's "letter of the law" turned back on themselves.
Which way forward? Back to some sort of mutual respect between public and police, or will we continue with the police imposing political laws on an unwilling public? I can guess, though I don't like it.....
-----------------------
*another ST article about the removal of traffic signs/markings in a town in Holland points out that if you treat drivers as unthinking morons they behave like that. Spot on -- I wonder if Brunstrom is listening??
Seems to me the difference is how two types of offence are treated, and the weight given to each...
Actual offences
Something happens - I belt someone, knock them down, steal their TV, rape them...
Compliance offences
Stepping over a line - I exceed a speed limit, park for a minute too long, have a bolt in the wrong place on my number plate...
The compliance offences are important, but, in my opinion, some are less important than the actual offences. But the compliance offences are multiplying and often being enforced with the same zeal as the actual offences - certainly they're the ones the privatised enforcement is targeted at. They're often easier to proecute (somewhat easier to get a speeding conviction than a dangerous driving one, so I've been told).
Problem is, people see the compliance offences being enforced and people committing the actual offences often seeming to get away with it.
That's why they get pixxed off - it seems like stepping over a line is prosecuted with greater zeal than burglary. Speeding convictions 1992 - a couple of hundred. Speeding convictions 2002 - 1,500,000 (and that was 40% up on 2001). Dangerous driving convictions over the same period, down 26%.
Sad thing is that the front-line police have very little to do with this, but they take the flak and abuse. Perhaps their senior managers responsible for policy should put their heads above the parapet once in a while...
Actual offences
Something happens - I belt someone, knock them down, steal their TV, rape them...
Compliance offences
Stepping over a line - I exceed a speed limit, park for a minute too long, have a bolt in the wrong place on my number plate...
The compliance offences are important, but, in my opinion, some are less important than the actual offences. But the compliance offences are multiplying and often being enforced with the same zeal as the actual offences - certainly they're the ones the privatised enforcement is targeted at. They're often easier to proecute (somewhat easier to get a speeding conviction than a dangerous driving one, so I've been told).
Problem is, people see the compliance offences being enforced and people committing the actual offences often seeming to get away with it.
That's why they get pixxed off - it seems like stepping over a line is prosecuted with greater zeal than burglary. Speeding convictions 1992 - a couple of hundred. Speeding convictions 2002 - 1,500,000 (and that was 40% up on 2001). Dangerous driving convictions over the same period, down 26%.
Sad thing is that the front-line police have very little to do with this, but they take the flak and abuse. Perhaps their senior managers responsible for policy should put their heads above the parapet once in a while...
MMC said:
Actual offences
Something happens - I belt someone, knock them down, steal their TV, rape them...
Compliance offences
Stepping over a line - I exceed a speed limit, park for a minute too long, have a bolt in the wrong place on my number plate...They're often easier to proecute (somewhat easier to get a speeding conviction than a dangerous driving one, so I've been told).
MMC said:
Problem is, people see the compliance offences being enforced and people committing the actual offences often seeming to get away with it.
MMC said:
Sad thing is that the front-line police have very little to do with this, but they take the flak and abuse. Perhaps their senior managers responsible for policy should put their heads above the parapet once in a while...
Those that do (Brunstrom) don't help. The rot starts at the top with Tiny Bliar and Noo Labia. The message they give out is all wrong as it leads to this ... get your blood pressure pills ready:
"The car is the last bastion of freedom — this must be overturned." - Kristine Beuret, Social Research Associates & Leicester Pedestrians Association
and it also leads to this:
"The criminal justice system has got it all out of kilter. We treat the motorist like a pariah and the burglar like a victim" Glen Smythe, Metropolitan Police Federation, 2001
and this:
"Pot-holes are a very efficient means of traffic calming" - Robert Gifford, Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety
plus this:
"Car commuters are considered to be the lowest of the low" - Hugh Richards, Highways Agency
and as for this
"Speed limits should be made very low and rigidly enforced to take all the glamour out of motoring" - Friends of the Earth
1995 Finally this is what they're trying to do to secure the future
"Our aim is to brainwash a new generation" - George Callaghan, Schools Travel Plan Officer, Stockton On Tees Borough Council, speaking about 'educating' pupils on how they should travel to school. 2004-02-25
Welcome to Kool Britannia, Islington styleee.
>> Edited by turbobloke on Sunday 22 August 19:34
Evening All.
That seemed to hit the nerve then!
At least you all seemed to understand that it isn't individual bobbies (well mostly!) going out of their way to p**s you folks off, so thanks for that. Maybe I'll print some of these replies off and leave them accidently lying around the Chiefs Office!
Mad Moggie - you seem to be in a very similar situation regarding a service run by bureaucrosy(?), performance targets, and league tables. all of which are controlled by trusts and managers. Its like me complaining I waited ages to see my Doctor, then he gave me ordinary pills that I didn't think were appropriate. It just a small facet of the whole Health Service, but one most of the public only see. The same is true of minor motoring offences in comparison to the Police Service in general.
dubiaguy - you must have a really dodgy lookin motor or drive in a very suspicious way We don't pull people over for the hell of it, there is usually something that catches our eye first. But I understand that as someone who has all his docs up together (I presume!) and is (generally) law abiding, etc., you are feeling hounded. I don't think its intentional though.
Peter - don't know mate! It is a change as you say. Not sure how much is perceived or exaggerated by press etc. Old Policing wouldnt catch the new criminals though, things have moved on. Maybe that should read 'new laws and constraints dont convict criminals'! But I do understand you want your visible bobby around doing sensible common sense policing, and in a way they still do. Its just that this type of policing(minor traffic etc) does have its place - but it is turning in to a double-edged sword for us.
MMC - Burglarys and other crimes ARE investigated just as much, and most Forces have specific Burglary Squads to target known criminals, and put a lot of effort into operations/obs. Admittedly they wont come to shed breaks etc, but they are there. Its just a side you dont see. The traffic offences thing is what most of you DO see, and herein lies the problem. I aggree with you the managers need to take more responsibility...come to think of it they should finish this thread for me!
The bottom line is the same. This IS a small aspect of Policing that is given a large aspect of publicity, because everyone of us has experienced it to some extent. How we were dealt with then, shapes how you judge the Police Service now. Not all of us have been robbed, mugged, shot at or killed (ghOst?)though...so keep it in perspective!
Thanks for being patient. I am signing off now as I am up at the crack of dawn(lucky Dawn!), for a few Days at Alton Towers with the Robocopettes...
Should be a rest after this lot
Safe Driving
Rgds
That seemed to hit the nerve then!
At least you all seemed to understand that it isn't individual bobbies (well mostly!) going out of their way to p**s you folks off, so thanks for that. Maybe I'll print some of these replies off and leave them accidently lying around the Chiefs Office!
Mad Moggie - you seem to be in a very similar situation regarding a service run by bureaucrosy(?), performance targets, and league tables. all of which are controlled by trusts and managers. Its like me complaining I waited ages to see my Doctor, then he gave me ordinary pills that I didn't think were appropriate. It just a small facet of the whole Health Service, but one most of the public only see. The same is true of minor motoring offences in comparison to the Police Service in general.
dubiaguy - you must have a really dodgy lookin motor or drive in a very suspicious way
We don't pull people over for the hell of it, there is usually something that catches our eye first. But I understand that as someone who has all his docs up together (I presume!) and is (generally) law abiding, etc., you are feeling hounded. I don't think its intentional though. Peter - don't know mate! It is a change as you say. Not sure how much is perceived or exaggerated by press etc. Old Policing wouldnt catch the new criminals though, things have moved on. Maybe that should read 'new laws and constraints dont convict criminals'! But I do understand you want your visible bobby around doing sensible common sense policing, and in a way they still do. Its just that this type of policing(minor traffic etc) does have its place - but it is turning in to a double-edged sword for us.
MMC - Burglarys and other crimes ARE investigated just as much, and most Forces have specific Burglary Squads to target known criminals, and put a lot of effort into operations/obs. Admittedly they wont come to shed breaks etc, but they are there. Its just a side you dont see. The traffic offences thing is what most of you DO see, and herein lies the problem. I aggree with you the managers need to take more responsibility...come to think of it they should finish this thread for me!
The bottom line is the same. This IS a small aspect of Policing that is given a large aspect of publicity, because everyone of us has experienced it to some extent. How we were dealt with then, shapes how you judge the Police Service now. Not all of us have been robbed, mugged, shot at or killed (ghOst?)though...so keep it in perspective!
Thanks for being patient. I am signing off now as I am up at the crack of dawn(lucky Dawn!), for a few Days at Alton Towers with the Robocopettes...
Should be a rest after this lot
Safe Driving
Rgds
robocop said:
MMC - Burglarys and other crimes ARE investigated just as much, and most Forces have specific Burglary Squads to target known criminals, and put a lot of effort into operations/obs. Admittedly they wont come to shed breaks etc, but they are there. Its just a side you dont see. The traffic offences thing is what most of you DO see, and herein lies the problem. I aggree with you the managers need to take more responsibility...come to think of it they should finish this thread for me!
Hmm - wondered if that was the case. Traffic's the bit people see, but there's a lot of stuff going on which we don't.
Reckon your senior occifers need to appoint a better PR agency then, Robo...
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