Had a nice little drive in this at the weekend...
Discussion
Thanks to Paul the (trusting!) owner I got to have a little 30-minute blat around the French countryside in this last Saturday during a fun rallye. A carbon-tubbed FW400 Westfield with the Hewland transaxle. Make that VERY trusting, these are quite rare and are quite expensive to fix i'd imagine... :-)
Hi Sam. Yes he didn't technically remove the ARB, it snapped on a trackday! He is having 2 different thickness ones made up front and rear , I assume one for track, one for road and none for wet conditions, but I didn't ask. Also its looks quite easy to remove a couple of kilos unsprung weight from the front of the car, did you not notice the expensive carbon fibre mudguards are attatched to the expensive wheel and hub assemblies by a couple of old horseshoes?? 
Re-doing them in aluminium would save some useful unsprung weight, I don't think that part was designed by F1 people!!
But it was a very interesting car and I discussed several issues with Paul. I liked it, its pretty trick but there are some bits to it which don't add up. I hope Paul doesn't get offended by anything I say here, but it is only what we both concluded in france.
Firstly, I assumed wrongly that these all had 190bhp VHPD engines. Paul said he thinks this should be 150bhp but it felt even less than that to me? Quite frankly, in it's current state my R1 Phoenix would destroy it road or track. It feels healthy enough but just lacks a bit, and I doubt it would see which way it's natural rival, the Caterham Superlight R went.. Has it had a replacement engine in the past? I find it hard to believe Westfield would go to the trouble of fitting a Carbon tub and Hewland transaxle and give it sub 150bhp?? When pushed Paul admitted that a k-series expert has identified the engine and it POSSIBLY has a 135bhp version from something, can't remember what he said.
The gearbox I found enjoyable! Dogleg first and clutchless upshifts if you were firm with it, I felt guilty at first but Paul said just lift 10% and crash it in. Similar to my bike engine to be honest in that respect, but in a H pattern not sequential so it felt wierd at first. I understand the concept of the transaxle for weight distribution but I am not sure given the choice I'd go for one over a Caterham 6-speed which I have driven at length.
The brakes were good if a little wooden an first but then so are mine until they get some heat in them. Different pads would probobly sort it out.
Oh, and the damping seems fine!
The only real two things i'd change ( well apart from giving it 200bhp )is the rollbar hoop, is it made of aluminium?? Although I was only driving it 9/10ths on the road I was consious that if I clipped a kerb and turned it over, it would probobly be the last thing I ever did... If the bar itself did not crack my skull open due to it being WAY too low ( a real pet hate of mine on any kitcar ) then I am sure it would fold up in a serious roll. If Westfield resorted to aluminium rollbars to keep the weight down to 420kgs then shame on them , mine would weigh 420kgs too if I swapped my sturdy FiA compliant steel one with some bent exhaust pipe! I would not venture onto a circuit with that rollbar, period.
And my only other gripe which I hope Paul would not mind me saying is it has not aged well in that it looks scruffy in places. The carbon is scuffed and the paintwork is not what i'd expect on a £40k factort built car, especially the edges where paint fades to carbon. I am sure the carbon fibre could be flattened and buffed up to remove the scratches and the same with the paint, I offered my services to help him do it one day. It looks like it has led a hard life in its current state and its a shame as it is at odds with the cars worth and status. And it looked like the front wishbones had been hand painted by someone with a hard brush in the dark ( don't ask how I would know that! ) as they are on view it needs adressing. Nothing major that a weekend of hard graft could not sort out I am sure.
I liked it, driving it was an event which is what I like, but it could be so much better...
Re-doing them in aluminium would save some useful unsprung weight, I don't think that part was designed by F1 people!!
But it was a very interesting car and I discussed several issues with Paul. I liked it, its pretty trick but there are some bits to it which don't add up. I hope Paul doesn't get offended by anything I say here, but it is only what we both concluded in france.
Firstly, I assumed wrongly that these all had 190bhp VHPD engines. Paul said he thinks this should be 150bhp but it felt even less than that to me? Quite frankly, in it's current state my R1 Phoenix would destroy it road or track. It feels healthy enough but just lacks a bit, and I doubt it would see which way it's natural rival, the Caterham Superlight R went.. Has it had a replacement engine in the past? I find it hard to believe Westfield would go to the trouble of fitting a Carbon tub and Hewland transaxle and give it sub 150bhp?? When pushed Paul admitted that a k-series expert has identified the engine and it POSSIBLY has a 135bhp version from something, can't remember what he said.
The gearbox I found enjoyable! Dogleg first and clutchless upshifts if you were firm with it, I felt guilty at first but Paul said just lift 10% and crash it in. Similar to my bike engine to be honest in that respect, but in a H pattern not sequential so it felt wierd at first. I understand the concept of the transaxle for weight distribution but I am not sure given the choice I'd go for one over a Caterham 6-speed which I have driven at length.
The brakes were good if a little wooden an first but then so are mine until they get some heat in them. Different pads would probobly sort it out.
Oh, and the damping seems fine!
The only real two things i'd change ( well apart from giving it 200bhp )is the rollbar hoop, is it made of aluminium?? Although I was only driving it 9/10ths on the road I was consious that if I clipped a kerb and turned it over, it would probobly be the last thing I ever did... If the bar itself did not crack my skull open due to it being WAY too low ( a real pet hate of mine on any kitcar ) then I am sure it would fold up in a serious roll. If Westfield resorted to aluminium rollbars to keep the weight down to 420kgs then shame on them , mine would weigh 420kgs too if I swapped my sturdy FiA compliant steel one with some bent exhaust pipe! I would not venture onto a circuit with that rollbar, period.
And my only other gripe which I hope Paul would not mind me saying is it has not aged well in that it looks scruffy in places. The carbon is scuffed and the paintwork is not what i'd expect on a £40k factort built car, especially the edges where paint fades to carbon. I am sure the carbon fibre could be flattened and buffed up to remove the scratches and the same with the paint, I offered my services to help him do it one day. It looks like it has led a hard life in its current state and its a shame as it is at odds with the cars worth and status. And it looked like the front wishbones had been hand painted by someone with a hard brush in the dark ( don't ask how I would know that! ) as they are on view it needs adressing. Nothing major that a weekend of hard graft could not sort out I am sure.
I liked it, driving it was an event which is what I like, but it could be so much better...
"Yes, it is aluminium. One of the others in this country (the white car that you can see on youtube) has had a taller rollover bar fitted by a previous owner, made from steel.
Personally, I trust the guy who designed it - I know that he's actually quite safety conscious - but in any case the taller bar worried me 'cos it would just mean you were putting more leverage on the mounting bobbins if you rolled the car... a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing when it comes to such modifications, IMO."
Was he 4'6" and made of rubber? If not, he is 100% dead if he gets rear end shunted with no helmet or turns it upside down.
And I hope the comment about a higher steel rollbar putting more leverage on the mounting points was a joke???????
"Still, if safety is your priority, buy a Volvo." No thanks.
"If you were driving it at 9/10th's on public roads, having just st"epped into the thing for the first time, then you are indeed a Driving God. "
Maybe. But it wasn't that fast to be honest to trouble the chassis, if it has any more than 140bhp i'll shave my head.
Personally, I trust the guy who designed it - I know that he's actually quite safety conscious - but in any case the taller bar worried me 'cos it would just mean you were putting more leverage on the mounting bobbins if you rolled the car... a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing when it comes to such modifications, IMO."
Was he 4'6" and made of rubber? If not, he is 100% dead if he gets rear end shunted with no helmet or turns it upside down.
And I hope the comment about a higher steel rollbar putting more leverage on the mounting points was a joke???????
"Still, if safety is your priority, buy a Volvo." No thanks.
"If you were driving it at 9/10th's on public roads, having just st"epped into the thing for the first time, then you are indeed a Driving God. "
Maybe. But it wasn't that fast to be honest to trouble the chassis, if it has any more than 140bhp i'll shave my head.
TheLastPost said:
Furyblade_Lee said:
Was he 4'6" and made of rubber?
No, he's not. I'll mention your concerns next time I see him though... I'm sure he'll be delighted to be put right by someone of your obvious engineering knowledge and talent.
Furyblade_Lee said:
And I hope the comment about a higher steel rollbar putting more leverage on the mounting points was a joke???????
No, It is not. Did you see how the roll bar is mounted on the Westfield? Although you need to have the rear bodywork removed to appreciate it fully. This may help:
And do you appreciate that the mounting bobbins are small, top-hat section fittings (threaded for M6 bolts, if my memory serves me correctly), bonded to a sandwich panel the skins of which are <1.0mm thick? It would concern me that any benefit from the extra height would be outweighed by the risk of the extra leverage ripping the mountings clear out of the skin of the monocoque. Not something I'd want to risk, without a second opinion from someone who knows what they're doing in composite design.
As you can see from the chassis image above, it's not possible to add backstays, because there's no structure to brace them back onto. This photo shows the roll bar on the white car, for reference.
king stupid AND dangerous. Did he spec the horseshoes wingstays for the carbon fibre wings too? Come to think of it, who designed the Robin Hood Lightweight? I am no engineer myself as you point out, but that car screams to me not very well thought out at all, and its no wonder it did not sell in vast numbers. Its a death trap on wheels if you crash it, not clever in any way. Money spent in completely the wrong areas and designed by several people who did not think things through. Didn't a Touring Car racer in period refuse to road test it properly because he feared for his safety in a crash? I forget his name, but I am sure one did? Maybe it's not just me. But I still like the car!!!!! Sam, I am done on this and not going to descend into another pointles spat with your good self. I DO like the car, some of it is very trick but its flawed. And im sorry I dont care if the guy THINKS that rollhoop is strong enough, once its finished turning you skull to pulp he'd be better off leaving it off altogether and saving a few kilos. Obviously it did not cross his mind to design the carbon tub with a provision for some roll protection, he's no Gordon Murray is he??? As usual you are exposing you little knowlege and its probobly why you chose that car and not an R300 to let deteriorate in your back garden.
I really am done on this, I dont want it to come across as I am disrepecting Pauls car, I do like it but unlike you Sam I don't look at it through rose-tinted spectacles. But then I didn't buy it for £30k'ish.
I really am done on this, I dont want it to come across as I am disrepecting Pauls car, I do like it but unlike you Sam I don't look at it through rose-tinted spectacles. But then I didn't buy it for £30k'ish.
Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Tuesday 25th September 18:05
No, I'm sorry for my comment, it was the beer talking. But in any case you both seem to have an axe to grind with each other, I don't really know the details but I suspect if you guys were to meet up (if not done so already?) you'd probably get along well and have a bit of a laugh... certainly both seem knowledgeable.
Cheers,
Gary.
Cheers,
Gary.
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