Talk to me about Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo's
Discussion
I have always wanted a Fiat Coupe, as to my mind it was brave & bold styling statement during a golden period of Italian car design (156/355/Barchetta/Brava/Bravo/GTV). However as an ex Alfa 156 owner should I be looking out for rusty floor-pans and shot suspension, and what are the main issues more particular to this car, leaking turbo seals?
Rust isn't a real issue as the cars were galvanised from the factory. You may find scabby rear arches, the front cross members and possibly inside the rear 3/4 panels, as the pininfarina badges were pinned in place. I sealed mine up and mine had no water ingress.
Maintenance is *essential* on these cars, so any car you see should come with stacks of history. Turbo seals almost always go when they are decatted. Mine is on 126k and the original turbo.
Bushes, bearings and ball joints wear over time eg wishbones, track rod ends, rear trailing arm bearings etc.
Cambelts need changing every 5 years, clutches wear, and exhaust manifolds can crack. Each job is around £400 so try to find cars which have had these done.
The engines and gearboxes are fairly bullet proof, with no common issues if maintained. If left standard can go for in excess of 200k. That said if my memory serves me correctly Nigel_O ran >400bhp on forged engine internals for 60,000+ miles. If they are modified correctly they are reliable.
Pop over to the Fiat Coupe forum there's a very comprehensive buyers guide and a huge amount of knowledge on these cars.
Maintenance is *essential* on these cars, so any car you see should come with stacks of history. Turbo seals almost always go when they are decatted. Mine is on 126k and the original turbo.
Bushes, bearings and ball joints wear over time eg wishbones, track rod ends, rear trailing arm bearings etc.
Cambelts need changing every 5 years, clutches wear, and exhaust manifolds can crack. Each job is around £400 so try to find cars which have had these done.
The engines and gearboxes are fairly bullet proof, with no common issues if maintained. If left standard can go for in excess of 200k. That said if my memory serves me correctly Nigel_O ran >400bhp on forged engine internals for 60,000+ miles. If they are modified correctly they are reliable.
Pop over to the Fiat Coupe forum there's a very comprehensive buyers guide and a huge amount of knowledge on these cars.
I bought a 20VT in April having spent a year keeping an eye on the market. I was quite picky about colour and mileage (yellow, sprint blue or red in that order) and ideally sub 60,000 miles, and largely unmodified. In the year that I looked, I only spotted 2 or 3 adverts which fitted the bill. I think that values are so low now that the decent ones don't change hands that often! In the end, I had to settle for a red car (3rd favourite colour, 53,000 miles, good body but pink and delaquering paint!) - I began to get quite alarmed that if I waited too long, there might not be any good ones left!
The advice I was given is that they do indeed rust, and badly. The body panels I understand were galvanised, but the underside was not. The result is that most do suffer from corrosion to some degree, and that dependent on the extent, it is very expensive to repair. The positive is that so many have been scrapped and broken that second hand parts are very cheap and there are a number of excellent specialists around the country. On the subject of buying advice, they all said that you should buy primarily on the condition of the body (and paint which I ignored!) as the mechanicals are cheap to deal with comparatively. The specialists in my experience are generally happy to give you tips as to where to check for the signs of rust e.g under spare wheel, seams on either side of boot floor under carpet, boot side compartments etc etc
The forum www.fccuk.org is absolutely first class and a fountain of information. I hope the above doesn't put you off. Everyone I have dealt with in the Coupe world has been delightful. I absolutely adore the car and the fact it's an increasingly rare sight makes it all the more desirable in my opinion. Particularly in 5 cylinder form, it feels very exotic, and I think of it as being in smaller version of the 3200 GT but with much bolder styling!
The advice I was given is that they do indeed rust, and badly. The body panels I understand were galvanised, but the underside was not. The result is that most do suffer from corrosion to some degree, and that dependent on the extent, it is very expensive to repair. The positive is that so many have been scrapped and broken that second hand parts are very cheap and there are a number of excellent specialists around the country. On the subject of buying advice, they all said that you should buy primarily on the condition of the body (and paint which I ignored!) as the mechanicals are cheap to deal with comparatively. The specialists in my experience are generally happy to give you tips as to where to check for the signs of rust e.g under spare wheel, seams on either side of boot floor under carpet, boot side compartments etc etc
The forum www.fccuk.org is absolutely first class and a fountain of information. I hope the above doesn't put you off. Everyone I have dealt with in the Coupe world has been delightful. I absolutely adore the car and the fact it's an increasingly rare sight makes it all the more desirable in my opinion. Particularly in 5 cylinder form, it feels very exotic, and I think of it as being in smaller version of the 3200 GT but with much bolder styling!
Dont buy one ! Or you will end up being besotted by the bloody machines and before you know you own 2 or 3 of them and end up making friends with like minded people from all over the world and start doing crazy trips just to meet up and talk coupes ,drink and have great track days/meets etc.
You have been warned.
You have been warned.
magooagain said:
Dont buy one ! Or you will end up being besotted by the bloody machines and before you know you own 2 or 3 of them and end up making friends with like minded people from all over the world and start doing crazy trips just to meet up and talk coupes ,drink and have great track days/meets etc.
You have been warned.
You have been warned.
Quite a number of people have bought into them over the years as a form of affordable performance motoring, then sell them on later once funds allow an upgrade, which is to be expected. However a surprising number of these same people eventually come back to the fold. That should tell you something about the car.
I am in a position where I can afford "better" metal, but of all my cars, I have a special spot for the Coupe. The car has *oodles* of character. It is flawed in many areas (and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!), but the way it brings together the things it is good at is utterly unique at a price anywhere south of expensive classics.
The 5-pot turbo is more rapid than the numbers suggest. It's not scary by any means (unless you have no prior experience of quick motoring), but the speed is VERY accessible. It also sounds very good - it's not going to get near any Ferrari V8 of course, but it aurally destroys any regular hack with 4 cylinders and most things with 6. One guy I know jacked his in for an RS250, and while he says the Megane is a far more capable machine in objective terms, the biggest thing he says he misses about the Coupe is the sound, and he hadn't realised just how important the noise was to the experience of driving a car.
If you buy one that is bone standard, you must invest in some basic brake and handling upgrades to 'modernize' it a bit. The weak points are very well documented and the FCCUK forum has an incredible wealth of information. In fact the quality of the forum makes ownership of this car a third as hard as it would otherwise be.
Heck, you only need to look at the forum for evidence that this car is actually rather special. Very, very, very few people who have owned one (and maintained it well!) have a bad overall experience; most who have left the fold remember the car very fondly, as flawed as it is.
In short, one of the last breed of 'proper' Italian cars for the mass market. They just don't make them like that anymore I think.
The last thing I would say is that do not let the purchase price fool you into thinking it is a cheap car - it may be cheap to buy, but they are not cheap to run. However, if you spend the money to take good care of one, it will reward you with many smiles.
I am in a position where I can afford "better" metal, but of all my cars, I have a special spot for the Coupe. The car has *oodles* of character. It is flawed in many areas (and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!), but the way it brings together the things it is good at is utterly unique at a price anywhere south of expensive classics.
The 5-pot turbo is more rapid than the numbers suggest. It's not scary by any means (unless you have no prior experience of quick motoring), but the speed is VERY accessible. It also sounds very good - it's not going to get near any Ferrari V8 of course, but it aurally destroys any regular hack with 4 cylinders and most things with 6. One guy I know jacked his in for an RS250, and while he says the Megane is a far more capable machine in objective terms, the biggest thing he says he misses about the Coupe is the sound, and he hadn't realised just how important the noise was to the experience of driving a car.
If you buy one that is bone standard, you must invest in some basic brake and handling upgrades to 'modernize' it a bit. The weak points are very well documented and the FCCUK forum has an incredible wealth of information. In fact the quality of the forum makes ownership of this car a third as hard as it would otherwise be.
Heck, you only need to look at the forum for evidence that this car is actually rather special. Very, very, very few people who have owned one (and maintained it well!) have a bad overall experience; most who have left the fold remember the car very fondly, as flawed as it is.
In short, one of the last breed of 'proper' Italian cars for the mass market. They just don't make them like that anymore I think.
The last thing I would say is that do not let the purchase price fool you into thinking it is a cheap car - it may be cheap to buy, but they are not cheap to run. However, if you spend the money to take good care of one, it will reward you with many smiles.
I guess I should contribute - I was one of the founder members of the Fiat Coupe Club back in 2002 and I now run a highly modded Coupe as my everyday car, and a bog-standard 16v non-turbo as a rolling restoration (one of the very early dealer cars and now amongst the ten oldest in the country)
The modded car now has a quarter of a million miles on the engine (although its had a couple of rebuilds along the way, including one right now after the cambelt snapped)
They are definitely 'marmite' cars - some love them, some hate them.
Despite my bias, I have to say that they are not a car you can just own. Preventative maintenance is an absolute must. They are attention-hungry and can easily be a money-pit. Cheap ones are plentiful, but will cost you a fortune to put right.
Having said that, a sorted one is a wonderful experience - the five-pot noise is very characterful and despite being 15 years old, the 20vt is still a match for stuff like the Focus ST and Astra VXR.
However, once modded, they really fly. Mine will easily out-drag an M3 and it will hang onto proper exotica - 0-60 in under 5, 0-100 in around 9, 0-150 in about 20, quarter mile in 12.3 and top end somewhere around 180. I've spent a few quid on handling as well, so its remarkably good in the twisties. It'll also do high 30s mpg on a run and is (relatively) comfortable and refined for the daily commute. Most modded Coupes haven't gone as far as I have, but a thousand pounds spent on a basically-sound Coupe will make a very enjoyable car in the region of 250-260bhp.
Specialists are quite rare - maybe half a dozen at best (I work part-time for one in Birmingham). Most owners are happy to travel to take their cars to one of the proven specialists, in the knowledge that it's money well spent.
Buy one with your eyes (and wallet) open and you'll be OK. Buy a cheapie and you'll probably regret it fairly quickly
As has already been mentioned, the Coupe forum ( www.fccuk.org/forum ) is very helpful and can make the difference between simply surviving ownership and actually enjoying it.
The modded car now has a quarter of a million miles on the engine (although its had a couple of rebuilds along the way, including one right now after the cambelt snapped)
They are definitely 'marmite' cars - some love them, some hate them.
Despite my bias, I have to say that they are not a car you can just own. Preventative maintenance is an absolute must. They are attention-hungry and can easily be a money-pit. Cheap ones are plentiful, but will cost you a fortune to put right.
Having said that, a sorted one is a wonderful experience - the five-pot noise is very characterful and despite being 15 years old, the 20vt is still a match for stuff like the Focus ST and Astra VXR.
However, once modded, they really fly. Mine will easily out-drag an M3 and it will hang onto proper exotica - 0-60 in under 5, 0-100 in around 9, 0-150 in about 20, quarter mile in 12.3 and top end somewhere around 180. I've spent a few quid on handling as well, so its remarkably good in the twisties. It'll also do high 30s mpg on a run and is (relatively) comfortable and refined for the daily commute. Most modded Coupes haven't gone as far as I have, but a thousand pounds spent on a basically-sound Coupe will make a very enjoyable car in the region of 250-260bhp.
Specialists are quite rare - maybe half a dozen at best (I work part-time for one in Birmingham). Most owners are happy to travel to take their cars to one of the proven specialists, in the knowledge that it's money well spent.
Buy one with your eyes (and wallet) open and you'll be OK. Buy a cheapie and you'll probably regret it fairly quickly
As has already been mentioned, the Coupe forum ( www.fccuk.org/forum ) is very helpful and can make the difference between simply surviving ownership and actually enjoying it.
Stay clear of low mileage cars. Cars used daily are best, as are cars that run up and down motorways. High mileage is no problem, as long as properly maintained.
Belts and pulleys should be changed every 24000 miles, no more, for piece of mind, especially if driven hard. When having belts done, consider clutch also. Cheaper to do both, if clutch needs doing.
Stay clear of modded cars, unless proven, with bills, and known specialist[s]. Wrong mods can kill engines dead! Last, Coupes do not like thin oil !! You have been warned!
Andy.
Belts and pulleys should be changed every 24000 miles, no more, for piece of mind, especially if driven hard. When having belts done, consider clutch also. Cheaper to do both, if clutch needs doing.
Stay clear of modded cars, unless proven, with bills, and known specialist[s]. Wrong mods can kill engines dead! Last, Coupes do not like thin oil !! You have been warned!
Andy.
Sumplug - I though you might have learned from being banned for spouting such rubbish.....
Nothing wrong with low mileage cars, as long as they've been maintained properly - mine had done 24500 when I bought it
Belts are fine for much more than 24k, regardless of how they are driven
The clutch is at the other end of the engine to the belts and is no cheaper to replace at the same time - replace only when needed.
The only truth in your post is that they're not keen on thin oil and poor mods are not advisable
Nothing wrong with low mileage cars, as long as they've been maintained properly - mine had done 24500 when I bought it
Belts are fine for much more than 24k, regardless of how they are driven
The clutch is at the other end of the engine to the belts and is no cheaper to replace at the same time - replace only when needed.
The only truth in your post is that they're not keen on thin oil and poor mods are not advisable
Hoopsuk said:
How do we know how old they are then Nigel? is there a register somewhere? I'm thinking mine must be pretty old, its a 95 16VT. Do you have a link to a forum thread or is it a DVLA enquiry to find out?
Come on then, lets see some pics. 
A lot of the 16vts over here got bought up for the engines to be put into other cars and the rest scrapped.
Evoluzione said:
Come on then, lets see some pics.
A lot of the 16vts over here got bought up for the engines to be put into other cars and the rest scrapped.
A shame, but then I guess the Coupe is far overshadowed by the Deltas cult status and racing pedigree. I actually bought the complete powetrain from an old thema 16VT so I have a spare gearbox and engine. I'm in with the coupe for the long haul.A lot of the 16vts over here got bought up for the engines to be put into other cars and the rest scrapped.
Pic of it is in my garage current cars.
a few more here:
http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/pericoloso82/lib...
Haven't driven it for a few years its in storage so will be a fair bit dustier, (but hopefully not rustier) now.
I used to love driving my coupe.
Hoopsuk said:
A shame, but then I guess the Coupe is far overshadowed by the Deltas cult status and racing pedigree. I actually bought the complete powetrain from an old thema 16VT so I have a spare gearbox and engine. I'm in with the coupe for the long haul.
Pic of it is in my garage current cars.
a few more here:
http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/pericoloso82/lib...
Haven't driven it for a few years its in storage so will be a fair bit dustier, (but hopefully not rustier) now.
I used to love driving my coupe.
Ah, the car's in the Uk, when I read your profile I guessed you'd got it in Aus. The engines are getting put in much more than integrales, they go in Alfa 155s, 156 and Puntos too. Pic of it is in my garage current cars.
a few more here:
http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/pericoloso82/lib...
Haven't driven it for a few years its in storage so will be a fair bit dustier, (but hopefully not rustier) now.
I used to love driving my coupe.
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