Discussion
I was watching some of those YouTube videos of professional drivers doing impressive tap dancing on the pedals to get their cars around a track. And it got me to wondering about heel and toe control.
If I wanted to learn to do it, how would be best to go about it? I'm not convinced that it would be wise to try it on the road. A track day would be a possibility, but I'd imagine that it would take more than one day of self-teaching to get to grips with it, and that then starts to get expensive. Is there some sort of advanced driving course where you might learn it?
So, how did you learn to heel and toe, and how long did it take for you to get to grips with it?
If I wanted to learn to do it, how would be best to go about it? I'm not convinced that it would be wise to try it on the road. A track day would be a possibility, but I'd imagine that it would take more than one day of self-teaching to get to grips with it, and that then starts to get expensive. Is there some sort of advanced driving course where you might learn it?
So, how did you learn to heel and toe, and how long did it take for you to get to grips with it?
I learnt in my first car - a Mini with a Paddy Hopkirk accelerator "accessory".
Make sure you can physically do it with your pedals. You can't in all cars unless you are a double jointed swivel ankled freak. If you can just go somewhere quiet and give it a try. Say third to second. Just take your time. Don't be trying to do Too Fast Too Furious split second shifts and see how you get on.
Make sure you can physically do it with your pedals. You can't in all cars unless you are a double jointed swivel ankled freak. If you can just go somewhere quiet and give it a try. Say third to second. Just take your time. Don't be trying to do Too Fast Too Furious split second shifts and see how you get on.
You can practice the movements stationary in your running car. Foot firmly pressing on brake, roll foot sideways to move the accelerator and see what happens to the revs. This will tell you a few things, most important of which is whether the pedal setup makes H&T easy, tricky or impossible
For me, in the Caterham, it's almost telepathic but I still get it wrong. In the Volvo it's pointless
For me, in the Caterham, it's almost telepathic but I still get it wrong. In the Volvo it's pointless
I taught myself, my dad having taught me to double declutch.
Put the two together and you've got years of beautiful sounding smooth rev matched downshifts ahead of you!
Seriously, it isn't like left foot braking where learning on road is unwise, just try it.
A little tip, I've got big feet (size 11 or 12 depending on shoe) and have to roll my foot as it is too big to position normally.
Put the two together and you've got years of beautiful sounding smooth rev matched downshifts ahead of you!
Seriously, it isn't like left foot braking where learning on road is unwise, just try it.
A little tip, I've got big feet (size 11 or 12 depending on shoe) and have to roll my foot as it is too big to position normally.
How I learnt heel and toe:
Sit in the car, engine running, in neutral, handbrake on. Press brake, blip throttle. Repeat until bored.
The next stage is find a nice straight bit of road with no hazards (traffic, junctions, driveways, field entrances, etc) then brake and blip the throttle.
The next stage is brake and change down gear while blipping the throttle.
The penultimate stage is to do this while braking for a corner.
The final stage is to start looking down on people who can't do it.
Sit in the car, engine running, in neutral, handbrake on. Press brake, blip throttle. Repeat until bored.
The next stage is find a nice straight bit of road with no hazards (traffic, junctions, driveways, field entrances, etc) then brake and blip the throttle.
The next stage is brake and change down gear while blipping the throttle.
The penultimate stage is to do this while braking for a corner.
The final stage is to start looking down on people who can't do it.
Captain Muppet said:
How I learnt heel and toe:
Sit in the car, engine running, in neutral, handbrake on. Press brake, blip throttle. Repeat until bored.
The next stage is find a nice straight bit of road with no hazards (traffic, junctions, driveways, field entrances, etc) then brake and blip the throttle.
The next stage is brake and change down gear while blipping the throttle.
The penultimate stage is to do this while braking for a corner.
The final stage is to start looking down on people who can't do it.
yes, this Sit in the car, engine running, in neutral, handbrake on. Press brake, blip throttle. Repeat until bored.
The next stage is find a nice straight bit of road with no hazards (traffic, junctions, driveways, field entrances, etc) then brake and blip the throttle.
The next stage is brake and change down gear while blipping the throttle.
The penultimate stage is to do this while braking for a corner.
The final stage is to start looking down on people who can't do it.
Ignoring the braking, can you go down through the gearbox matching revs in each lower gear by blipping the throttle? If you can't, practice doing so until you can.
When you can do that, it's just a matter of practicing doing so with the edge of your foot while braking. Find a very quiet road and practice doing it.
edit - don't practice doing it where you HAVE to brake until you know you can make a reasonable fist of it!
When you can do that, it's just a matter of practicing doing so with the edge of your foot while braking. Find a very quiet road and practice doing it.
edit - don't practice doing it where you HAVE to brake until you know you can make a reasonable fist of it!
otolith said:
Ignoring the braking, can you go down through the gearbox matching revs in each lower gear by blipping the throttle? If you can't, practice doing so until you can.
When you can do that, it's just a matter of practicing doing so with the edge of your foot while braking. Find a very quiet road and practice doing it.
This is how I did it. As you coast up to red lights or something in 3rd, try going into second whilst blipping the throttle and use the engine to slow you down... Dont forget to brake afterwards though!When you can do that, it's just a matter of practicing doing so with the edge of your foot while braking. Find a very quiet road and practice doing it.
I learned entirely on the road - you learn to rev match first (I taught myself to change gear without using the clutch because the clutch hydraulics failed on my MGB), then you just concentrate on the braking side of it, with most of your foot on the brake, and learn to catch the throttle with the outside of your bridge. Doesn't matter if you bugger up the throttle blip as long as you're solid on the brakes.
John145, I drive an RX-8 so clearly neither of these things are the case 
So the general consensus is that it's ok to try on the road as long as it's quiet and you're not actually trying to brake for real. I like the siting on the drive idea, so I may give that a go.
I'm not anticipating that it's going to make any difference to my driving but I like to learn new skills and it might be fun to use on track. Thanks all
So the general consensus is that it's ok to try on the road as long as it's quiet and you're not actually trying to brake for real. I like the siting on the drive idea, so I may give that a go.
I'm not anticipating that it's going to make any difference to my driving but I like to learn new skills and it might be fun to use on track. Thanks all
As long as you can modulate the brake pedal (and don't just wham it down) you'll be fine... it's one of those things that sounds harder to do than it actually is. Once you've done it a few times, you'll find yourself doing it automatically, as it just makes everything smoother.
The car's drivetrain setup has nothing to do with bothering with it or not, and the economy difference would be so minimal as to not make any difference.
The car's drivetrain setup has nothing to do with bothering with it or not, and the economy difference would be so minimal as to not make any difference.
John145 said:
Do you drive a front wheel drive car?
Do you care about fuel economy?
If the answer to both of these is yes, don't bother.
Why not?Do you care about fuel economy?
If the answer to both of these is yes, don't bother.
Matching the revs on the downshift can help keep a car stable under hard braking so being able to blip the throttle while stamping on the anchors is useful. Isn't this why rallyists/racers do it on the downshifts?
Does it really use that much extra fuel heel and toeing? Would the extra cost offset any potential wear and tear you avoid on the clutch/gearbox? (I actually don't know the answer to this)
Which wheels are driven might be a factor if you want the skill for track use where a downchange under braking without rev-matching might be more of a concern in a rear drive car. If you want the skill so that you can drive more smoothly on the road without adopting an IAM-style separation of braking and gear changing, it's irrelevant.
Captain Muppet said:
How I learnt heel and toe:
Sit in the car, engine running, in neutral, handbrake on. Press brake, blip throttle. Repeat until bored.
The next stage is find a nice straight bit of road with no hazards (traffic, junctions, driveways, field entrances, etc) then brake and blip the throttle.
The next stage is brake and change down gear while blipping the throttle.
The penultimate stage is to do this while braking for a corner.
The final stage is to start looking down on people who can't do it.
Although, it is worth noting that the final stage can also be a walk back across a ploughed field and thumbing a lift home. Sit in the car, engine running, in neutral, handbrake on. Press brake, blip throttle. Repeat until bored.
The next stage is find a nice straight bit of road with no hazards (traffic, junctions, driveways, field entrances, etc) then brake and blip the throttle.
The next stage is brake and change down gear while blipping the throttle.
The penultimate stage is to do this while braking for a corner.
The final stage is to start looking down on people who can't do it.
Cyder said:
Why not?
Matching the revs on the downshift can help keep a car stable under hard braking so being able to blip the throttle while stamping on the anchors is useful. Isn't this why rallyists/racers do it on the downshifts?
Does it really use that much extra fuel heel and toeing? Would the extra cost offset any potential wear and tear you avoid on the clutch/gearbox? (I actually don't know the answer to this)
When heel and toeing you are unlikely to be perfect thus there is still a wear effect on the mechanicals. Engines are designed to activate fuel cut off when going down through the gears and slowing down which would be completely wasted when you fire fuel into the engine to accelerate it up...Matching the revs on the downshift can help keep a car stable under hard braking so being able to blip the throttle while stamping on the anchors is useful. Isn't this why rallyists/racers do it on the downshifts?
Does it really use that much extra fuel heel and toeing? Would the extra cost offset any potential wear and tear you avoid on the clutch/gearbox? (I actually don't know the answer to this)
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff