Discussion
So as per the other thread Ive just got a 3r. Ive come from the Land of Lotus so always had high reving hondas, or engines runing throttle bodies so still trying to adapt to a turbo car but so far loving it. The car is so easy to work on, and am quite enjoying learning about it. Its not had much love from the last owner so Im slowly getting things sorted out but come up against a few snags and wondering about some of you guys casting your expert opinion my way!
Basically she is a 3R with the five speed box. Suspension is way past its best so Ive just recieved Protechs with the help of Tux and should fit them this week. As Im starting with an unkown entity I intend to replace he ball joints just as there cheap and give me confidence that I know they are right.
My biggest issue regards the fuel pump or possibly bad earths? The first thing I noticed was that the sterio loses its memory. I now figured out that this is tied to when the immob is disarmed so could be that the extra draw drops the voltage too much. So of course research on here shows a massive amount of info on fuel pumps wiring!! Is mine done? Not sure, so ill need to check the size of wires at the pump but in the interim Ive got 5 relays on the bulkhead, 3 black and two grey, anyone know what these are for?
Ive read conflicting stories that the fuel pump is already on a relay and some say that its direct feed from the ecu?? Never heard of that before, normally the ecu just earths a relay. What the truth?
Yesterday I started having some more worrying issues. Ever since getting the car its appear to have masses of go up to around 5k then although still pulling to the 6.8k redline it seems to fizzle away a little. Is this normal? Im not that experienced with tirbo cars but seems similar to any turbo diesel. Now Im worried that the fuel pump has been struggling an she is actually been running lean. To make matters worse she started stuttering yesterday on the way home but only on high boost. Restarted after a 30 second switch off and she seemed okay so I thought pointing to a bad earth again. Needless to say Ill change and gap the plugs but also heard about a fuel line becoming flexy and needing replaced? This happened after a 1 hr drive and only a 1/4 tank of fuel. Today with a full tank she seemed fine.
So.... Questions,
I guess Im going to replace the pump regardless, I hear the 044 is the one to go for? Wheres the best place to source this?
Plugs, what type are people using and is it always 30thou?
Where are the main earth points so I can clean them up?
The reason Ive focussed a little on the wiring is that the previous owner obviously didnt have a clue. The drivers door didnt lock and the speaker made a funny noise when disarming the alarm. Turns out someone wired the speaker and lock actuator back to front!! All sorted now though.
Thanks Guys,
Craig.
Basically she is a 3R with the five speed box. Suspension is way past its best so Ive just recieved Protechs with the help of Tux and should fit them this week. As Im starting with an unkown entity I intend to replace he ball joints just as there cheap and give me confidence that I know they are right.
My biggest issue regards the fuel pump or possibly bad earths? The first thing I noticed was that the sterio loses its memory. I now figured out that this is tied to when the immob is disarmed so could be that the extra draw drops the voltage too much. So of course research on here shows a massive amount of info on fuel pumps wiring!! Is mine done? Not sure, so ill need to check the size of wires at the pump but in the interim Ive got 5 relays on the bulkhead, 3 black and two grey, anyone know what these are for?
Ive read conflicting stories that the fuel pump is already on a relay and some say that its direct feed from the ecu?? Never heard of that before, normally the ecu just earths a relay. What the truth?
Yesterday I started having some more worrying issues. Ever since getting the car its appear to have masses of go up to around 5k then although still pulling to the 6.8k redline it seems to fizzle away a little. Is this normal? Im not that experienced with tirbo cars but seems similar to any turbo diesel. Now Im worried that the fuel pump has been struggling an she is actually been running lean. To make matters worse she started stuttering yesterday on the way home but only on high boost. Restarted after a 30 second switch off and she seemed okay so I thought pointing to a bad earth again. Needless to say Ill change and gap the plugs but also heard about a fuel line becoming flexy and needing replaced? This happened after a 1 hr drive and only a 1/4 tank of fuel. Today with a full tank she seemed fine.
So.... Questions,
I guess Im going to replace the pump regardless, I hear the 044 is the one to go for? Wheres the best place to source this?
Plugs, what type are people using and is it always 30thou?
Where are the main earth points so I can clean them up?
The reason Ive focussed a little on the wiring is that the previous owner obviously didnt have a clue. The drivers door didnt lock and the speaker made a funny noise when disarming the alarm. Turns out someone wired the speaker and lock actuator back to front!! All sorted now though.
Thanks Guys,
Craig.
Welcome Craig 
A 3R with (assuming an original) 5-speed box would be an early 3R (circa mid/late 03?). Some history for you - in between taking deposits on 3Rs and delivering them Noble changed the gearbox to 6-speed (which was great news). They then tried to get c. £1650 off of those who had already ordered one - AFAIR this was dropped to £1000 (or was it no charge in the end? - I can't remember back 8 years now)
What colour is your car?
A 3R with (assuming an original) 5-speed box would be an early 3R (circa mid/late 03?). Some history for you - in between taking deposits on 3Rs and delivering them Noble changed the gearbox to 6-speed (which was great news). They then tried to get c. £1650 off of those who had already ordered one - AFAIR this was dropped to £1000 (or was it no charge in the end? - I can't remember back 8 years now)
What colour is your car?
Thanks Gents, she is Azure blue ( my fav colour for the car) and was Gaz's on here a few years back but he had an accident with her. I got the pics from the accident and wasnt too bad, certainly nothing that concerns me anyway.
She already ahs a HandS exhaust, SS and seperate boxes for each bank.
Id have loved the six speed and will hopefully look at that in the future but just need to be comfartable with what Ive got first. Must say though Im loving it, its properly quick, maybe not quite as fast as my charged honda elise but its soooo effertless, car on the horizon blip of the throttle then brake before you run into them!!
I plugged in the easimap software, dont worry I didnt change anything just downloaded the data from her. Although the file is binary in the middle of the code there is some ascii,
Final Map 1457 on 310803 - SUNDAY!!!
Boost now at 07Bar, Peak power 353@6200rpm peak torque 350@4700rpm
Based on 300803 - new lambda rich/lean gains
New throttle and coolant start map, new coolant gauge map
New accel fuel strategy
Revisions to accel and decel fuel maps
Changes to closed-loop adaptive and open-loop lambda avg applied
T Jasper - Roush - 08/12/03
So does this mean its been remapped and the ecu is unlocked??
Ill hopefully get the serial line extended into the cab so that I can monitor in the car using the noble software. There is a little more options in the easimap software, is it possible to use this without risk to the ecu? Do I need a chip file or something?
Craig.
She already ahs a HandS exhaust, SS and seperate boxes for each bank.
Id have loved the six speed and will hopefully look at that in the future but just need to be comfartable with what Ive got first. Must say though Im loving it, its properly quick, maybe not quite as fast as my charged honda elise but its soooo effertless, car on the horizon blip of the throttle then brake before you run into them!!
I plugged in the easimap software, dont worry I didnt change anything just downloaded the data from her. Although the file is binary in the middle of the code there is some ascii,
Final Map 1457 on 310803 - SUNDAY!!!
Boost now at 07Bar, Peak power 353@6200rpm peak torque 350@4700rpm
Based on 300803 - new lambda rich/lean gains
New throttle and coolant start map, new coolant gauge map
New accel fuel strategy
Revisions to accel and decel fuel maps
Changes to closed-loop adaptive and open-loop lambda avg applied
T Jasper - Roush - 08/12/03
So does this mean its been remapped and the ecu is unlocked??
Ill hopefully get the serial line extended into the cab so that I can monitor in the car using the noble software. There is a little more options in the easimap software, is it possible to use this without risk to the ecu? Do I need a chip file or something?
Craig.
yellowshed did the map (T Jasper) so all is good on that front.
Sounds like the fuel pump is struggling, common issue as you have noted... basically the hose to the pump can become weak and collapse under load when hot... also the stock wiring to it is simply too small and simply cant supply the amps for it to run efficiently.
Stock wiring to the pump always has a relay in... we add a new one to get a beefed up feed to the pump so effectivelly have 2 relays and use the first to switch the second on as its easier than replacing all the wiring with no real downside.
The standard 3r has a power band that is all over by around 6500rpm to give the car more mid range torque and protect the standard valve springs which cant cope with high revs and power and start to float... a common mod is to replace the valve springs and change the timing (via the chain) which allows the car to make more power at top end as it can hold the revs.
Be aware though if your 5 speed box doesnt have an LSD it will almost certainly break if you up the power/torque
Sounds like the fuel pump is struggling, common issue as you have noted... basically the hose to the pump can become weak and collapse under load when hot... also the stock wiring to it is simply too small and simply cant supply the amps for it to run efficiently.
Stock wiring to the pump always has a relay in... we add a new one to get a beefed up feed to the pump so effectivelly have 2 relays and use the first to switch the second on as its easier than replacing all the wiring with no real downside.
The standard 3r has a power band that is all over by around 6500rpm to give the car more mid range torque and protect the standard valve springs which cant cope with high revs and power and start to float... a common mod is to replace the valve springs and change the timing (via the chain) which allows the car to make more power at top end as it can hold the revs.
Be aware though if your 5 speed box doesnt have an LSD it will almost certainly break if you up the power/torque
Thanks Andy, first for me is just to get the engine running fine and then springs/geo done and setup to my liking. To be honest its fast enough just now, once Ive done a few track days and have a feel for things Ill probably look for more but will aim for a 6 speed box at the same time.
Craig.
Ill let you know how I get on with the wiring, just going to run a big feed from the starter and use the existing lines to control via a relay. If I intend to upgrade the pump does anyone know what sort of current capabilities are we looking at?
Thanks Craig.
Craig.
Ill let you know how I get on with the wiring, just going to run a big feed from the starter and use the existing lines to control via a relay. If I intend to upgrade the pump does anyone know what sort of current capabilities are we looking at?
Thanks Craig.
Hi Craig , great to see you are having fun !!
If the pump is the original I would chuck it and fit a new one or a M400 pump , if you go for a 044 it will give you plenty of options for the future but it can be a bit buzzy .
As suggested check all the full pipe and filter as they are prone to problems , also the way they are fitted can cause problems as well , never run below 1/4 tank if you can help it as the fuel pickup point is rubbish !!!!
Bulkhead relays can cause problems so its a good idea to strip and clean , I had to replace mine because they we rusty , I also fitted a alloy cover to protect them from the weather and heat .
Also check to make sure the front earth strap from the battery is in good order and there is one at the back of the engine in front of the exhaust , this one can melt !!!!! The battery terminals are prone to coming loose also .
If the exhaust has been upgraded make sure the front down pipe is wrapped as well or you can melt wires on the front bulkhead .
Hope you get on ok with the Protechs , good luck .
Tux
If the pump is the original I would chuck it and fit a new one or a M400 pump , if you go for a 044 it will give you plenty of options for the future but it can be a bit buzzy .
As suggested check all the full pipe and filter as they are prone to problems , also the way they are fitted can cause problems as well , never run below 1/4 tank if you can help it as the fuel pickup point is rubbish !!!!
Bulkhead relays can cause problems so its a good idea to strip and clean , I had to replace mine because they we rusty , I also fitted a alloy cover to protect them from the weather and heat .
Also check to make sure the front earth strap from the battery is in good order and there is one at the back of the engine in front of the exhaust , this one can melt !!!!! The battery terminals are prone to coming loose also .
If the exhaust has been upgraded make sure the front down pipe is wrapped as well or you can melt wires on the front bulkhead .
Hope you get on ok with the Protechs , good luck .
Tux
TuxMan said:
Hi Craig , great to see you are having fun !!
If the pump is the original I would chuck it and fit a new one or a M400 pump , if you go for a 044 it will give you plenty of options for the future but it can be a bit buzzy .
As suggested check all the full pipe and filter as they are prone to problems , also the way they are fitted can cause problems as well , never run below 1/4 tank if you can help it as the fuel pickup point is rubbish !!!!
Bulkhead relays can cause problems so its a good idea to strip and clean , I had to replace mine because they we rusty , I also fitted a alloy cover to protect them from the weather and heat .
Also check to make sure the front earth strap from the battery is in good order and there is one at the back of the engine in front of the exhaust , this one can melt !!!!! The battery terminals are prone to coming loose also .
If the exhaust has been upgraded make sure the front down pipe is wrapped as well or you can melt wires on the front bulkhead .
Hope you get on ok with the Protechs , good luck .
Tux
I reckon this is good advice from Tux, I replaced my pump with the M400 and it works great as i run a fairly stock 2.5. I also had a few stuttering problems with revs over 3500 when i first bought mine and a remap sorted all that alongside a good service from Jetstream. Keep an eye on the wires as Tux suggests, they are often in daft places causing them to melt !If the pump is the original I would chuck it and fit a new one or a M400 pump , if you go for a 044 it will give you plenty of options for the future but it can be a bit buzzy .
As suggested check all the full pipe and filter as they are prone to problems , also the way they are fitted can cause problems as well , never run below 1/4 tank if you can help it as the fuel pickup point is rubbish !!!!
Bulkhead relays can cause problems so its a good idea to strip and clean , I had to replace mine because they we rusty , I also fitted a alloy cover to protect them from the weather and heat .
Also check to make sure the front earth strap from the battery is in good order and there is one at the back of the engine in front of the exhaust , this one can melt !!!!! The battery terminals are prone to coming loose also .
If the exhaust has been upgraded make sure the front down pipe is wrapped as well or you can melt wires on the front bulkhead .
Hope you get on ok with the Protechs , good luck .
Tux
welcome to Nobility !
Mike
I can vouch for what andygtt and Tuxman are saying. I've just had these upgrades done to my 3R.
Jetstream uprated my valve springs, done the timing mod and put 0.7 turbo actuators on.
My car already had an upgraded M400 pump and uprated wiring. However, I'd steer clear of the M400 pump if you don't want the headache of repeat visits to get it remapped. In the end a Bosch 044 pump was put in and the cats taken out of the exhaust.
3 (expensive) remap attempts before the car achieved 415bhp and 405lb/ft torque.
It feels so much better than the standard output.
The exhaust is borderline noise wise, measured at 103db at the recent Rockingham meet. Although rumour has it that my baffles might not be where they should be.
I've noticed the 044 pump is much quieter than the M400 pump was. Not sure if this is common but it has made a difference.
Jetstream uprated my valve springs, done the timing mod and put 0.7 turbo actuators on.
My car already had an upgraded M400 pump and uprated wiring. However, I'd steer clear of the M400 pump if you don't want the headache of repeat visits to get it remapped. In the end a Bosch 044 pump was put in and the cats taken out of the exhaust.
3 (expensive) remap attempts before the car achieved 415bhp and 405lb/ft torque.
It feels so much better than the standard output.
The exhaust is borderline noise wise, measured at 103db at the recent Rockingham meet. Although rumour has it that my baffles might not be where they should be.
I've noticed the 044 pump is much quieter than the M400 pump was. Not sure if this is common but it has made a difference.
Thanks everyone for the advice, lots of knowledge on here but more importantly its knowledge that folks are willing to come forward with, its greatly appreciated! Bit stressed now as I already ordered the M400 pump. I had thought the FPR would have meant the mapping should not require altering? May decide to put it back.
Anyway started stripping her down last night and although she already has the pump wiring upgrade its all looking a little old so aim to replace and clean all the connections, will be starting that later this week.
Had the turbo pipes off last night and each has only a very small amount of oil residue so looks like they are in good condition so at least thats something.
I got the Noble monitor software running but its a little limited. Are the Lambda sensors wideband? ie if I fit the pump can I monitor the AFR? I see it gives volts for each bank, anyone know the conversion? If this doesnt work can I run my own wideband and feed it into the easimap software?
Craig.
Anyway started stripping her down last night and although she already has the pump wiring upgrade its all looking a little old so aim to replace and clean all the connections, will be starting that later this week.
Had the turbo pipes off last night and each has only a very small amount of oil residue so looks like they are in good condition so at least thats something.
I got the Noble monitor software running but its a little limited. Are the Lambda sensors wideband? ie if I fit the pump can I monitor the AFR? I see it gives volts for each bank, anyone know the conversion? If this doesnt work can I run my own wideband and feed it into the easimap software?
Craig.
r10crw said:
Bit stressed now as I already ordered the M400 pump. I had thought the FPR would have meant the mapping should not require altering? May decide to put it back.
Are the Lambda sensors wideband? ie if I fit the pump can I monitor the AFR? I see it gives volts for each bank, anyone know the conversion? If this doesnt work can I run my own wideband and feed it into the easimap software?
Craig.
You don't need to have it it remapped just because you have changed the fuel pump - just that it should give an improvement.Are the Lambda sensors wideband? ie if I fit the pump can I monitor the AFR? I see it gives volts for each bank, anyone know the conversion? If this doesnt work can I run my own wideband and feed it into the easimap software?
Craig.
The Lambdas are narrow band - don't know how you would feed a wideband into Easymap.
Regards
Graham
whaaaat?? 
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