so much for democracy and free speech
Discussion
I put a post in last week asking for comments about a well known independent. The first post was from a moderator (Domster) cautioning about "naming and shaming" (which I wasnt doing). the post generated two pages of discourse over the week, including contributions from said dealer (twice) who was presumably happy enough to engage in debate openly on the forum on this issue. No one was rude, no one was libellous.
Mysteriously however the post has now been deleted. What are the rules governing this? Do the moderators tell you if they delete a post. And what happened to free speech and open disussion? Whats the point of a discussion forum if its patrolled by Big Brother??
Answers quickly please before they delete this one too!
Mysteriously however the post has now been deleted. What are the rules governing this? Do the moderators tell you if they delete a post. And what happened to free speech and open disussion? Whats the point of a discussion forum if its patrolled by Big Brother??
Answers quickly please before they delete this one too!
Simple answer - such threads can get nasty - I've seen one in France end in a court case. Ask for replies to your query by email rather than expecting people to post views openly on a public forum.
Edited to add: Note that it was the web-site that ended up being sued by the dealer not the persons posting opinions. Not saying the thread that you're referring to would ever have gone as far as that, but it seems reasonable to me that moderators protect PH from being the vehicle of potentially libellous discussions.
>> Edited by nel on Friday 27th August 09:20
Edited to add: Note that it was the web-site that ended up being sued by the dealer not the persons posting opinions. Not saying the thread that you're referring to would ever have gone as far as that, but it seems reasonable to me that moderators protect PH from being the vehicle of potentially libellous discussions.
>> Edited by nel on Friday 27th August 09:20
i agree with you.
however i understand the procedure if you have an issue with how the site is being moderated is to either mail ted or the moderator. i'm surprised though you didn't get a mail from the moderator concerned explaining why it was deleted, especially if it had generated such debate.
have to say from an experience from yesterday the feeling i get is that on this forum all people are equal but some are more equal than others.
shame.
however i understand the procedure if you have an issue with how the site is being moderated is to either mail ted or the moderator. i'm surprised though you didn't get a mail from the moderator concerned explaining why it was deleted, especially if it had generated such debate.
have to say from an experience from yesterday the feeling i get is that on this forum all people are equal but some are more equal than others.
shame.
Tim,
After consulting with me the thread was deleted in its entirety because it was degenerating into a personal issue between a buyer and a trader and provided an unfair portrayal of one or both parties. It wouldn't do either party any good to leave the thread there for future generations to read.
Rather than go through trimming the thread to remove the 'difficulties' I recommended that the simplest solution would be to remove the whole thread.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
As for free speech - I've never made any pretence that PH offers a platform where people can say what the hell they like. As an advertising supported business I have to pay particular attention to keeping advertisers happy and from a personal perspective avoiding getting embroiled in disputes between customers and service providers is the simplest way to avoid spending vast amounts of time mediating or protecting my legal position.
Sorry, but free access to these forums has its price and that's it
Ted
...oh, and this ain't a democracy
After consulting with me the thread was deleted in its entirety because it was degenerating into a personal issue between a buyer and a trader and provided an unfair portrayal of one or both parties. It wouldn't do either party any good to leave the thread there for future generations to read.
Rather than go through trimming the thread to remove the 'difficulties' I recommended that the simplest solution would be to remove the whole thread.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
As for free speech - I've never made any pretence that PH offers a platform where people can say what the hell they like. As an advertising supported business I have to pay particular attention to keeping advertisers happy and from a personal perspective avoiding getting embroiled in disputes between customers and service providers is the simplest way to avoid spending vast amounts of time mediating or protecting my legal position.
Sorry, but free access to these forums has its price and that's it
Ted
...oh, and this ain't a democracy
Thanks for your support guys. I'm sure you'd have all made much better decisions in my position than I did 
This forum is very lightly moderated, but if naming/shaming goes on, or if things start to get personal, then things start to disappear. I'm sorry, but experience has shown this is the best route for all involved.
If a thread is deleted it is done so because things could get nasty legally. If something is locked it is still online.
I always explain myself personally to the aggrieved parties. Tim wasn't contacted because the thread was only deleted because of something BIF said.
I hope this clears up the matter so you can all get back to talking about Porsches
This forum is very lightly moderated, but if naming/shaming goes on, or if things start to get personal, then things start to disappear. I'm sorry, but experience has shown this is the best route for all involved.
If a thread is deleted it is done so because things could get nasty legally. If something is locked it is still online.
I always explain myself personally to the aggrieved parties. Tim wasn't contacted because the thread was only deleted because of something BIF said.
I hope this clears up the matter so you can all get back to talking about Porsches
domster said:
This forum is very lightly moderated, but if naming/shaming goes on, or if things start to get personal, then things start to disappear.
this is all well and good, and i understand the legal issue which is being taken.
however please explain one point. an earlier thread by daz (i believe) mentioned that the PH archive is full of positive comments about the various dealers concerned... well that's an obvious statement if all negative posts are deleted in the manner in which they have been.
close the negative posts certainly if things look like they're getting messy, but do not delete - there needs to be a balanced archive of opinion on the forum. remember people who are looking for a car and stumble across this site will no doubt be doing due diligence on dealers. searching through an archive of 100% positive feedback because the negative ones have been deleted is hardly helpful...
if you have a name and shame policy perhaps you should have an equal name and praise policy?
Well, I've seen plenty of postive posts about dealers, independents, suppliers etc. Therefore I don't see the problem posting negative opinions about the same organisations by other people who have had diffenet experiences. That provides a balanced viewpoint.
Otherwise when positive comments are posted they may be being made by those with personal/financial incentives. Therefore no positive posts should be allowed either if you are stopping the negative posts.
I see nothing wrong at all posting warnings based on peoples experiences. Yes, some may post based on an unfair viewpoint but this is the real world isn't it? Sometimes the world gets nasty but that is the reality.
Otherwise when positive comments are posted they may be being made by those with personal/financial incentives. Therefore no positive posts should be allowed either if you are stopping the negative posts.
I see nothing wrong at all posting warnings based on peoples experiences. Yes, some may post based on an unfair viewpoint but this is the real world isn't it? Sometimes the world gets nasty but that is the reality.
thanks for the clarification Domster and Petrolted. As a relative newbie to the forum one appreciates feedback when one falls foul of forum rules and I'd hope if I transgressed I would be told how and why.
I was a little surprise therefore that the thread had been deleted since the exchanges between myself and the dealer concerned were, I thought, fairly amicable. Nice to know that on this occasion the CCTV cameras were pointed in another direction.
thanks also for the confirmation that this forum is not a democratic one, but a benign (or at least up-front) autocracy. An integral part of one's sense of freedom is to know where and when we are not free!
I was a little surprise therefore that the thread had been deleted since the exchanges between myself and the dealer concerned were, I thought, fairly amicable. Nice to know that on this occasion the CCTV cameras were pointed in another direction.
thanks also for the confirmation that this forum is not a democratic one, but a benign (or at least up-front) autocracy. An integral part of one's sense of freedom is to know where and when we are not free!
This is not a new debate.
As a punter myself I know where you guys are coming from.
There is no name and praise policy as no-one has sued a website for libel where praise has been involved. This is not true when it comes to disputes. Please note that PistonHeads can be implicated in legal proceedings if a party thinks they have been libelled on it. If there is even the slightest chance of something escalating into a legal issue, I will moderate to be on the safe side.
So what next?
It is much easier to ask someone who they recommend, rather than to fish for good and bad replies.
If you want to know of a specific dealer's reputation or other forum member's experiences with them, ask people to post 'you have mail' if negative, and then get them to email you off board. There is no harm in positive comment on the thread, but the 'YHM' posts can balance them.
This invariably means that there are more positive comments than negative in the archives.
Furthermore, PistonHeads is no forum for airing dirty laundry in public. Argument and counter argument swiftly develop, which is no fun for the rest of the forum. Disputes can be resolved successfully off forum and even in court if necessary. This may affect 'recommendations' and positive comment on that dealer/supplier in the future. And you can always contact people by email or say 'I was unhappy, email me for details'.
Please also note that Tim's post was not a problem. I even edited BIF's comment to prevent RSJ or 911Virgin from being 'named'. Even when Henry stepped in to defend his reputation, I left the thread open as BIF's post was no longer directly implicating RSJ. This meant I took all steps I could to keep the thread open.
However, RSJ felt that they were still implicated and that BIF's comments were unfair. I then closed the thread after each party had had their say - just like the closing speeches in a debate or the courtroom.
Sadly, BIF wanted to have the last word and we were into argument/counter argument. RSJ were also unhappy with the implications of the thread as they felt severly misrepresented. So the thread got deleted.
If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask or email me personally (as forum politics and protocol are not as interesting as Porsches).
As a punter myself I know where you guys are coming from.
There is no name and praise policy as no-one has sued a website for libel where praise has been involved. This is not true when it comes to disputes. Please note that PistonHeads can be implicated in legal proceedings if a party thinks they have been libelled on it. If there is even the slightest chance of something escalating into a legal issue, I will moderate to be on the safe side.
So what next?
It is much easier to ask someone who they recommend, rather than to fish for good and bad replies.
If you want to know of a specific dealer's reputation or other forum member's experiences with them, ask people to post 'you have mail' if negative, and then get them to email you off board. There is no harm in positive comment on the thread, but the 'YHM' posts can balance them.
This invariably means that there are more positive comments than negative in the archives.
Furthermore, PistonHeads is no forum for airing dirty laundry in public. Argument and counter argument swiftly develop, which is no fun for the rest of the forum. Disputes can be resolved successfully off forum and even in court if necessary. This may affect 'recommendations' and positive comment on that dealer/supplier in the future. And you can always contact people by email or say 'I was unhappy, email me for details'.
Please also note that Tim's post was not a problem. I even edited BIF's comment to prevent RSJ or 911Virgin from being 'named'. Even when Henry stepped in to defend his reputation, I left the thread open as BIF's post was no longer directly implicating RSJ. This meant I took all steps I could to keep the thread open.
However, RSJ felt that they were still implicated and that BIF's comments were unfair. I then closed the thread after each party had had their say - just like the closing speeches in a debate or the courtroom.
Sadly, BIF wanted to have the last word and we were into argument/counter argument. RSJ were also unhappy with the implications of the thread as they felt severly misrepresented. So the thread got deleted.
If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask or email me personally (as forum politics and protocol are not as interesting as Porsches).
Spot on answers.
As for those that think this is merely scare-mongering, one major Japanese Car forum in the UK was shut down for a period of time a couple of years ago as a result of legal action against the operator of the website from a company who had been 'named and shamed'.
In addition another website I moderated on has faced threats of legal action from a similar situation unless certain posts were removed.
Guy
kamal996 said:
Its a shame that the "moderators" of this site allow the xenophobic and frankly racist views held in the general gassing section of this site....I guess its a breeding ground for future Daily Mail readers..we all turn into our parents in the end
blimey
not seen anything racist, some open and frank discusion about viewed problems that face the UK which may involve discussing 'visitors' from other nationalities, but nothing racist.
Fact.......car dealers live or die by reputation,and everybody should be free to express their views, however we live in a very litigiduous(ok I cant spell) society so measures have to be taken to protect the "owners" of websites such as this against costly legal actions.......
My advice if anybody wants to know of people's experience of a said dealer, request the information is sent to your email address via your profile.
poorcardealer said:
My advice if anybody wants to know of people's experience of a said dealer, request the information is sent to your email address via your profile.
Does anyone know what the legalities of such an e-mail might be? I mean in terms of slander and recourse to legal action against the author, should such an e-mail subsequently fall into the hands of the said dealer?
I've been trying to keep up with this as best I can and I can only come to one conclusion and that's simply some people's complaining FAR outweighs any inconvenience they've experienced. Independents, or official dealers DON'T make every car in their workshop, nor do they drive them for six months before resale.
I had a customer who complained about a set of (£10) white led bulbs being too white or something! Cut a long story short, he then went on to make an
ANTI - ACEparts website - http://notaceservice.tripod.com
I honestly thought that this couse of action was reserved for people with major complaints against major organisations!
I think the post should have been removed along with this one too!
I had a customer who complained about a set of (£10) white led bulbs being too white or something! Cut a long story short, he then went on to make an
ANTI - ACEparts website - http://notaceservice.tripod.com
I honestly thought that this couse of action was reserved for people with major complaints against major organisations!
I think the post should have been removed along with this one too!
911nutter said:
errr.... aceparts, unless i'm completely thick and missing the point, you have done yourself no favours by posting that link.
can i suggest you delete your post?
But if you read what the guy says in his rant you start to realise that the little twerp is a complate idiot. So whilst I agree some may think this looks bad for aceparts, this sort of throwing your toys out of the pram ranting kind of endears me to aceparts.com!!!
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