Dyno'd S4 Today: A Little Disappointed
Discussion
That is somewhat similar to what I'd expect with a basically stock car - about 200-220 rwhp on a Dynojet. Not hard to do more though - I went from there to 265 then 285 using more boost and a complete exhaust system with no other changes. You've got a baseline now, so you can make changes. If you need a chip email me, I can help.
Was that running the max boost? Max boost on the #3 chip is 1.0bar, and only under certain conditions, unless "triggered" with a hold of the throttle at idle to 5K rpms. Otherwise, you are stuck around .85 bar. I would expect with the full bar of boost, to see ~240-250.
That plot does look like what I experienced with my #3 chip. Initial spike, dwindle down and then back up real quick.
That plot does look like what I experienced with my #3 chip. Initial spike, dwindle down and then back up real quick.
Lucas:
There's a TON of stuff avaialbel for the 4-cylinder Esprit to give you more HP. John Welch's (WC Engineering) turbo is a good start, then maybe some uprated (slightly) primary injectors from RC Engineeering, the adjustable intake cam gear and Euro spec cams from Michael's Motorsports (www.MichaelsMotorsports.com). That will put you in teh neighborhood of about 350HP I think.
Hey it's only money!
Mark
There's a TON of stuff avaialbel for the 4-cylinder Esprit to give you more HP. John Welch's (WC Engineering) turbo is a good start, then maybe some uprated (slightly) primary injectors from RC Engineeering, the adjustable intake cam gear and Euro spec cams from Michael's Motorsports (www.MichaelsMotorsports.com). That will put you in teh neighborhood of about 350HP I think.
Hey it's only money!
Mark
If you are looking for a path of upgrades I would do your chip and exhaust first, big gains there for little work. In my experience injector changes are not needed for the 4. I'm running a T04E turbo, much more airflow than the T3 units, and am plenty rich with the stock fueling system. I also have a nitrous system too, a wet one (nitrous additional fuel is pulling from the stock rail, so, plently of pump flow too), but on spray the car is still safely rich with no fueling changes other than the chip map.
If you decide to do the turbo upgrade you have many options available to you besides the JC Engineering turbo, which is a good unit too. Ditto the other bits too.
The exhaust is so simple that your best bet is to work with a good custom muffler shop and have them make you one. Or, if you can weld a little, make it yourself, it takes little skill because it is simplistic.
Good questions on your dyno run, that is, max boost etc. I had some runs about 2 months ago in which the computer kept pulling boost and it was only seeing about 230-240 or so rwhp on the Dynojet at around 0.7-0.8 bar. Outside temp was over 85F and it wouldn't provide more boost in the stationary enviroment of the dyno (fans are not enough for the chargecooler radiator). Normally, in cool air we see 320-340 rwhp with the combination at 1.2 bar.
You'll have fun with the modifications and there are lots of folks here that can help you.
>> Edited by rlearp on Sunday 29th August 14:21
If you decide to do the turbo upgrade you have many options available to you besides the JC Engineering turbo, which is a good unit too. Ditto the other bits too.
The exhaust is so simple that your best bet is to work with a good custom muffler shop and have them make you one. Or, if you can weld a little, make it yourself, it takes little skill because it is simplistic.
Good questions on your dyno run, that is, max boost etc. I had some runs about 2 months ago in which the computer kept pulling boost and it was only seeing about 230-240 or so rwhp on the Dynojet at around 0.7-0.8 bar. Outside temp was over 85F and it wouldn't provide more boost in the stationary enviroment of the dyno (fans are not enough for the chargecooler radiator). Normally, in cool air we see 320-340 rwhp with the combination at 1.2 bar.
You'll have fun with the modifications and there are lots of folks here that can help you.
>> Edited by rlearp on Sunday 29th August 14:21
Thanks for the comments guys.
My number one concern is that a) I already have a chip and b) I have already modified the exhaust, sort of.
My plans are to have a custom exhaust built w/ muffler and highflo cat using 3" pipe from the turbo back. The next step will likely be the WC Engineering turbo and some real dyno tuning.
My (slightly arbitrary) goal is 300 rwhp in a driveable/streetable car with as mush low end as possible.
>> Edited by karmavore on Sunday 29th August 17:21
My number one concern is that a) I already have a chip and b) I have already modified the exhaust, sort of.
My plans are to have a custom exhaust built w/ muffler and highflo cat using 3" pipe from the turbo back. The next step will likely be the WC Engineering turbo and some real dyno tuning.
My (slightly arbitrary) goal is 300 rwhp in a driveable/streetable car with as mush low end as possible.
>> Edited by karmavore on Sunday 29th August 17:21
Get your boost to 1.1-1.2 bar and use a 3" mandrel bent system with no cat. You'll see around 285-290 rwhp with this combination. You'll see more out of yours as is if you can see 1 bar of boost instead of a lower boost level. Do you get 1.0 bar on the street while driving?
If you want to do the turbo upgrade just send yours off to Turbonetics or a couple of other places and have them rebuild yours as a hybrid. Runs about $500 and you'll see some power gains with that as well. I didn't do this, I just bought a brand new T04E for the same money and sold my stock turbo for $300, net cost $200. I had to fabricate a fair amount of stuff though and I posted some details on it months ago. Still, for performance bang for the buck it can't be beat.
I just changed my exhaust so that I can bolt and unbolt the cat in place, a small 3" high flow one. Here it is with it in place and with the test pipe I made to go along with it.
www.gt40s.com/images/lotus/cat1.JPG
www.gt40s.com/images/lotus/cat2.JPG
It is a very small high flow cat and the car passed emissions with it here on Friday. I haven't dynoed the differece with or without the cat, but driving the car I notice a very slight difference in feel of how the car revs. Seems to rev a little bit better without the cat.
If you live around NC I'd be happy to help weld you up an exhaust, come over and bring beer!
Best,
Ron
>> Edited by rlearp on Sunday 29th August 19:29
If you want to do the turbo upgrade just send yours off to Turbonetics or a couple of other places and have them rebuild yours as a hybrid. Runs about $500 and you'll see some power gains with that as well. I didn't do this, I just bought a brand new T04E for the same money and sold my stock turbo for $300, net cost $200. I had to fabricate a fair amount of stuff though and I posted some details on it months ago. Still, for performance bang for the buck it can't be beat.
I just changed my exhaust so that I can bolt and unbolt the cat in place, a small 3" high flow one. Here it is with it in place and with the test pipe I made to go along with it.
www.gt40s.com/images/lotus/cat1.JPG
www.gt40s.com/images/lotus/cat2.JPG
It is a very small high flow cat and the car passed emissions with it here on Friday. I haven't dynoed the differece with or without the cat, but driving the car I notice a very slight difference in feel of how the car revs. Seems to rev a little bit better without the cat.
If you live around NC I'd be happy to help weld you up an exhaust, come over and bring beer!
Best,
Ron
>> Edited by rlearp on Sunday 29th August 19:29
No, sorry. Since I made my own 3" exhaust all I did was cut a section out of it a little larger than the cat I was installing. Then, I welded standard 3" flanges that you can buy at any auto store on the cat, welded the same flange on the two pipes of the exhaust. Done deal, cost about $15. Got a scrap piece of 3" straight from my previous exhaust work and welded flanges on the end of it, viola, bolt in test pipe.
I don't think you'll need any CAD stuff since these are pieces you can find anywhere.
Wait, maybe I read you wrong - you mean the exhaust manifold flanges? Wish I'd known I could have at least traced them when I had my exhaust off and during the turbo swap. I do have a Lotus head though and could pull a flange pattern off it for the head side. In fact, I have a Jensen Healey header lying in the garage that would do perfectly.
Some pics here since I've been on the SCCA forum asking about port sizes:
www.gt40s.com/images/jensen/port1.JPG
www.gt40s.com/images/jensen/port2.JPG
I think the heads are identical, but I'm not sure. We'd have to double check that closely.
Ron
>> Edited by rlearp on Sunday 29th August 20:07
I don't think you'll need any CAD stuff since these are pieces you can find anywhere.
Wait, maybe I read you wrong - you mean the exhaust manifold flanges? Wish I'd known I could have at least traced them when I had my exhaust off and during the turbo swap. I do have a Lotus head though and could pull a flange pattern off it for the head side. In fact, I have a Jensen Healey header lying in the garage that would do perfectly.
Some pics here since I've been on the SCCA forum asking about port sizes:
www.gt40s.com/images/jensen/port1.JPG
www.gt40s.com/images/jensen/port2.JPG
I think the heads are identical, but I'm not sure. We'd have to double check that closely.
Ron
>> Edited by rlearp on Sunday 29th August 20:07
That's OK. I work almost exclusively in stainless and getting flanges water jet cut or plasma cut off of CAD drawings is pretty easy and not very expensive if you have all the CAD stuff done.
I was under the car today, and it is starting to look like I will need an exhaust manifold in the not too distant future. There is a crack growing behind #4 runner.
Looks like a pretty good project. Oh well.
Dr.Hess
I was under the car today, and it is starting to look like I will need an exhaust manifold in the not too distant future. There is a crack growing behind #4 runner.
Looks like a pretty good project. Oh well. Dr.Hess
something is wrong.. those numbers are way off the mark even for a stock car. Are you getting full boost? the choppiness in the graph points toward irregular / incomplete combustion so make sure your timing is correct and your ignition system is in working order. There are 4 big dips in the powerband.. could very easily be the knock sensor pulling timing out because its sensing a knock.
The last thing you need are more performance mods.. i think a tuneup could easily find another 30 horsepower in your car.
The last thing you need are more performance mods.. i think a tuneup could easily find another 30 horsepower in your car.
Those aren't far off for a stock car, at least for the peak hp numbers. The stock car was rated at 264hp and the dyno shows rear wheel hp, not flywheel hp. Losses are typically around 15%, so, 264 x .85 = 224 hp. Close enough for government work. Now, the dips etc. are something I don't see on my own.
>> Edited by rlearp on Sunday 29th August 20:47
>> Edited by rlearp on Sunday 29th August 20:47
Well, true that. What chip are you running and what max boost is it supposed to run?
Thing is, if the car is only making 0.65-0.8bar of boost, then, for all intensive purposes it is stock. If that is all the boost he got as estimated above then of course he'll get close to stock hp numbers, which he has.
Thing is, if the car is only making 0.65-0.8bar of boost, then, for all intensive purposes it is stock. If that is all the boost he got as estimated above then of course he'll get close to stock hp numbers, which he has.
Stock HP is 264 but can get as high as 285 with the "overboost" trick. Since he is running the #3 chip, known as the high torque chip, he should hit the 1.0 bar and see more WHP that what he is getting. What boost did you see the gauge hit? Did you log the run with Freescan? If so, what did that say? What was the air/fuel ratio? They did plug up a wideband, right? How does the car feel on the street compared to your stock chip?
Those dips shown in the graph, I experienced as well. Boost would rush on and punch real nice but it backed off 1 complete second after the fun started and then eventually came back up, usually to 1 bar, but not always. It was choppy and all over the place and the car didn't really feel good other than the lower punch. Honestly, I think my stock chip was better (S4). His gragh looks like he is not reaching 1 bar of boost. If he was, he'd see ~240-250WHP.
Anyway, I have since switched to the #5 (high HP) and oh how the car goes now. That nice punch in the low range is gone but replaced now with smooth boost. Still good driveability around town but so much faster when WOT, seeing 1.2 bar. I am now contemplating the #6, red race code. 1.25 bar and upped boost throughout the range.
Ron, why you gotta be so far from me? I would be more than happy to exchange some beer for an exhaust!
>> Edited by njgsx96 on Monday 30th August 01:09
Those dips shown in the graph, I experienced as well. Boost would rush on and punch real nice but it backed off 1 complete second after the fun started and then eventually came back up, usually to 1 bar, but not always. It was choppy and all over the place and the car didn't really feel good other than the lower punch. Honestly, I think my stock chip was better (S4). His gragh looks like he is not reaching 1 bar of boost. If he was, he'd see ~240-250WHP.
Anyway, I have since switched to the #5 (high HP) and oh how the car goes now. That nice punch in the low range is gone but replaced now with smooth boost. Still good driveability around town but so much faster when WOT, seeing 1.2 bar. I am now contemplating the #6, red race code. 1.25 bar and upped boost throughout the range.
Ron, why you gotta be so far from me? I would be more than happy to exchange some beer for an exhaust!
>> Edited by njgsx96 on Monday 30th August 01:09
njg is right, it is pulling boost or timing I think too. The dips in toque and hp should occur at the same time when this happens of course, so, this would jive with what is happening at 3600 RPM.
I had the #3 chip in my car in June 2003. With just that chip and a previous flowmaster exhaust I made (2.5", no cat) it was able to make 267 rwhp before I got serious about mods and chip programming. So, I agree with you, he should make more but I imagine that temps are spiking and it is pulling boost, timing, or both. get freescan up and running to check it out.
R
>> Edited by rlearp on Monday 30th August 01:22
I had the #3 chip in my car in June 2003. With just that chip and a previous flowmaster exhaust I made (2.5", no cat) it was able to make 267 rwhp before I got serious about mods and chip programming. So, I agree with you, he should make more but I imagine that temps are spiking and it is pulling boost, timing, or both. get freescan up and running to check it out.
R
>> Edited by rlearp on Monday 30th August 01:22
We didn’t do any data logging ...yet But the operator said the boost gauge was getting "buried."
I've never been impressed with my #3 chip, but I've run it almost since I bought the car in April, so I can't compare it to stock too easily. ..but I've always suspected that it wasn't loaded with the correct code ...but since the boost gauge hits 1.0 I’ve been told that can’t be
Luke.
I've never been impressed with my #3 chip, but I've run it almost since I bought the car in April, so I can't compare it to stock too easily. ..but I've always suspected that it wasn't loaded with the correct code ...but since the boost gauge hits 1.0 I’ve been told that can’t be
Luke.
Hi guys,
I'm outa my league here w/ the GM managed cars, but as I read this thread, I'm thinking TPS? If the throttle position sensor isn't properly set, or the throttle body/cable isn't giving you WOT(actual or at the ECU), I could somewhat justify the readings you're seeing. It could also explain why you've been underwhelmed with the chip since you got it. But, as I said, this is outside my sphere of understanding.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
I'm outa my league here w/ the GM managed cars, but as I read this thread, I'm thinking TPS? If the throttle position sensor isn't properly set, or the throttle body/cable isn't giving you WOT(actual or at the ECU), I could somewhat justify the readings you're seeing. It could also explain why you've been underwhelmed with the chip since you got it. But, as I said, this is outside my sphere of understanding.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
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