Hybrids, and why they're a gimmick

[Timbola]

Reading the 'What car don't you get?' thread got me thinking.

Why are Hybrids so popular?

You'd imagine that an educated person with an environmental conscience would research a bit about their motoring product before making a purchase, but it seems they don't.

Hybrids are an environmental headache; far worse than your regular diesel or petrol motor out there.

Production
- Hybrid cars are more complex to build; their production is more intensive, taking more time and more power to create the end-product. More power leads to a higher carbon footprint, higher emissions and all the consequent higher impacts to the environment.

- Production of the electric motors used in Hybrids require rare earth metals. Five of these - dysprosium, terbium, europium, neodymium and yttrium - are, according to the Department of Energy, on the critical list for supply (2012-2015). Several others - cerium, indium, lanthanum and tellurium - are on the near-critical list. These rare earth metals will have far better use elsewhere - in wind-turbines for example. Conventional diesel/petrol cars use none of these rare earth metals.

- Many of the metals, rare-earth and otherwise, come from singular deposits in exotic locations around the globe. Some of what makes up a Prius, for example, needs to be shipped from South America and Canada. This is hugely inefficient and wasteful.


Batteries
- The batteries used in Hybrids are toxic, to us and to the environment. The conventional Prius for example uses Nickel metal hydride batteries, which contain known carcinogens, and has a variety of nasty teratogenic effects.
Newer, more efficient batteries are being developed using Lithium-ion, yet these are still toxic, and lithium is another metal in short supply.

- Batteries are heavy. Very heavy. To lug them around, particularly the large number of them needed to power a vehicle, is inefficient.


Hybrids still use fossil-fuels
- Once your inefficent battery power runs out (about a mile on full charge for your conventional Prius), the petrol engine kicks in and takes over. So Hybrids still use a fossil-fuel-using, emissions-producing conventional engine. There is no environmental saviour here.

- Since Hybrids still use fossil-fuels, an environmentally-conscious person is far better off purchasing conventional alternatives. Both VW's Bluemotion Polos/Golfs and BMW's Efficient Dynamics 1 Series' offer better mileage and lower emissions than any of the Hybrids. Both are far cheaper, environmentally more efficient in their manufacture, and more engaging to drive too - no massive batteries weighing the car down.


Yes, but Hybrids (and electric only) vehicles are the future!
Are they bks.
Proponents of Hybrids and electric-only vehicles argue that we are still in the early development phase of the electric motor, battery power and related technologies. The current crop of Hybrid and electric are not the Panacea many hoped they would be, fair enough, but lots of people buy them, they're profitable, and so it's worth motor companies' investing R&D dollars in developing them further - future iterations will be more and more efficient.

The flaw with this line of thinking is that there is a brick wall that cannot be overcome with battery power, where a fuel will always triumph - batteries need charging. Hybrids use a conventional fossil-fuel engine to charge the batteries when they run out - and so defeats the purpose. Electric-only vehicles need a plug-in point and a large amount of time to charge - a non-starter for longer journeys. Plus, power from a plug-in point still needs to be generated.
Advancing technologies in this field cannot, ever, overcome this brick wall - a battery needs charging.


Ok, so what is the future?
Hydrogen, and the hydrogen fuel-cell.
- Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. There won't ever be a shortage.
- Hydrogen extraction processing is a technology in its infancy, but long-ago it attained scientific breakthrough status, engineering breakthrough status, and is approaching economic breakthrough status. Large-scale manufacture and more intensive research will improve the efficiencies in extraction and bring economies of scale.
- Zero emissions. The fuel-cell power process combines hydrogen from a tank, with oxygen in the air, giving off H2O - water.
- The re-fuelling infrastructure is in place across the globe. Conventional petrol stations can be readily adapted to supply hydrogen. There are already 2 stations up and running in the UK.
- A car powered by the cell delivers equivalent performance to conventional fossil-fuel cars. And not an unwieldy, toxic battery in sight.

~

Given the above, the fact that Hybrids sell in such large numbers (over 2 million Priuses have now been shipped) points to a triumph of the marketing man over the the naiiveté of the environmentally-conscious. Hybrids aren't even a stop-gap filling the environmentally-friendly space until something better comes along, given how environmentally damaging they actually are. They're a gimmick, nothing more.

[Alfanatic]

What is the environmental impact of pumping all that water vapour into the atmosphere if you were to replace all fossil fuel vehicles with hydrogen powered ones of equivalent performance?

[SpeckledJim]

Alfanatic said:

What is the environmental impact of pumping all that water vapour into the atmosphere if you were to replace all fossil fuel vehicles with hydrogen powered ones of equivalent performance?

Zero. Almost literally a drop in the ocean.

[sparkyhx]

Alfanatic said:

What is the environmental impact of pumping all that water vapour into the atmosphere if you were to replace all fossil fuel vehicles with hydrogen powered ones of equivalent performance?

More rain and floods

[Bitofbully]

Timbola said:

These rare earth metals will have far better use elsewhere - in wind-turbines for example. Conventional diesel/petrol cars use none of these rare earth metals.

You were doing reasonably well up to this bit, then it all went to pieces very quickly.

Edited by Bitofbully on Friday 26th October 13:01

[Save Ferris]

Timbola said:

Why are Hybrids so popular?

Good fuel economy, low road tax (if not zero), easy to drive and reliable.

That pretty much covers it.

[Drop Test b3nxj]

Timbola said:

Bla Bla Bla

and your point is??

[Accumul8]

Drop Test b3nxj said:

and your point is??

Hybrids are as 'green' as they seem?

[thinfourth2]

Timbola said:

Electric-only vehicles need a plug-in point and a large amount of time to charge - a non-starter for longer journeys. Plus, power from a plug-in point still needs to be generated.



Ok, so what is the future?
Hydrogen, and the hydrogen fuel-cell.
- Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. There won't ever be a shortage.

You find a hydrogen well and you will be a very rich man

You do know that hydrogen doesn't actually magically appear from thin air

Its made by taking electricity and breaking down water

Timbola said:

- Hydrogen extraction processing is a technology in its infancy, but long-ago it attained scientific breakthrough status, engineering breakthrough status, and is approaching economic breakthrough status. Large-scale manufacture and more intensive research will improve the efficiencies in extraction and bring economies of scale.

You cannae break the laws of physic man

Timbola said:

- The re-fuelling infrastructure is in place across the globe. Conventional petrol stations can be readily adapted to supply hydrogen. There are already 2 stations up and running in the UK.

I can't argue with this

A petrol station needs a storage tanks, fuel pumps, fuel tankers, oil refineries and a shop selling mars bars

To convert it the only things we would need to change are the storage tanks, fuel pumps, fuel tankers, oil refineries.

Timbola said:

- A car powered by the cell delivers equivalent performance to conventional fossil-fuel cars. And not an unwieldy, toxic battery in sight.

Well apart from the battery the fuel cell feeds

Timbola said:

Given the above, the fact that Hybrids sell in such large numbers (over 2 million Priuses have now been shipped) points to a triumph of the marketing man over the the naiiveté of the environmentally-conscious. Hybrids aren't even a stop-gap filling the environmentally-friendly space until something better comes along, given how environmentally damaging they actually are. They're a gimmick, nothing more.

If you want to save the planet walk or kill yourself

[BFG TERRANO]

Save Ferris said:

Good fuel economy, low road tax (if not zero), easy to drive and reliable.

That pretty much covers it.

Had a toyota prius for a long term loan. I disagree with the above from experience, apart from the cheap road tax.
The engine run for most of my journeys except downhill. Road noise was bad, batteries didn't last long without the engine, boot was shallow and not practical. Overall mpg for mixed use was around 40.

[thinfourth2]

Drop Test b3nxj said:

Timbola said:

Bla Bla Bla

and your point is??

Its probably the normal

Look at me i hate hybrids aren't i wonderful

Look at me aren't i clever

[Save Ferris]

BFG TERRANO said:

Had a toyota prius for a long term loan. I disagree with the above from experience, apart from the cheap road tax.
The engine run for most of my journeys except downhill. Road noise was bad, batteries didn't last long without the engine, boot was shallow and not practical. Overall mpg for mixed use was around 40.

My experience is obviously different to yours then. Ive had Prius and later Auris Hybrid as a company car on and off for over 8 years now and have always been really happy with the economy, normally getting just over 60mpg on the newer 1.8 models.

[AnotherClarkey]

Why does everyone assume that people buy a Prius to save the environment? I bought mine because it is cheap to run, reliable, spacious, comfortable and one of, if not THE most reliable car available.

Mine has averaged 57mpg since I got it 12000 miles ago and has never given a moment of bother. It also has the best automatic transmission I have ever driven. The ideal commuting tool.

[offendi]

OP maybe try research instead of padding out opinions and you may make a valid point one day

and do EXACTLY the same research in to petrol and diesel before you reach a conclusion

[crofty1984]

thinfourth2 said:

Timbola said:

Electric-only vehicles need a plug-in point and a large amount of time to charge - a non-starter for longer journeys. Plus, power from a plug-in point still needs to be generated.



Ok, so what is the future?
Hydrogen, and the hydrogen fuel-cell.
- Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. There won't ever be a shortage.

You find a hydrogen well and you will be a very rich man

You do know that hydrogen doesn't actually magically appear from thin air

Its made by taking electricity and breaking down water

Timbola said:

- Hydrogen extraction processing is a technology in its infancy, but long-ago it attained scientific breakthrough status, engineering breakthrough status, and is approaching economic breakthrough status. Large-scale manufacture and more intensive research will improve the efficiencies in extraction and bring economies of scale.

You cannae break the laws of physic man

Timbola said:

- The re-fuelling infrastructure is in place across the globe. Conventional petrol stations can be readily adapted to supply hydrogen. There are already 2 stations up and running in the UK.

I can't argue with this

A petrol station needs a storage tanks, fuel pumps, fuel tankers, oil refineries and a shop selling mars bars

To convert it the only things we would need to change are the storage tanks, fuel pumps, fuel tankers, oil refineries.

Timbola said:

- A car powered by the cell delivers equivalent performance to conventional fossil-fuel cars. And not an unwieldy, toxic battery in sight.

Well apart from the battery the fuel cell feeds

Timbola said:

Given the above, the fact that Hybrids sell in such large numbers (over 2 million Priuses have now been shipped) points to a triumph of the marketing man over the the naiiveté of the environmentally-conscious. Hybrids aren't even a stop-gap filling the environmentally-friendly space until something better comes along, given how environmentally damaging they actually are. They're a gimmick, nothing more.

If you want to save the planet walk or kill yourself

Tinfourth, you're sadly mistaken. Those shops sell flapjacks as well nowadays. Recent research has shown that if you go into one of those little petrol-station shops, you can get flapjacks.

[LouD86]

Save Ferris said:

BFG TERRANO said:

Had a toyota prius for a long term loan. I disagree with the above from experience, apart from the cheap road tax.
The engine run for most of my journeys except downhill. Road noise was bad, batteries didn't last long without the engine, boot was shallow and not practical. Overall mpg for mixed use was around 40.

My experience is obviously different to yours then. Ive had Prius and later Auris Hybrid as a company car on and off for over 8 years now and have always been really happy with the economy, normally getting just over 60mpg on the newer 1.8 models.

Here here! I seem to manage over 60 in them no matter what aswell (Later 1.8 engined cars) and was happy with late 50's in a gen 2. Comfy, quiet, smooth, easy to drive.

Tyre noise, now if the engine was noisier, would you hear that tyre noise I wonder?

[Timbola]

thinfourth2 said:

If you want to save the planet ... kill yourself

Ultimately, this is the only truth ...

[inman999]

Where did you copy and paste that old tripe from.

Everyone has an agenda, yours obviously involves hydrogen proliferation.

[Mr Gear]

offendi said:

OP maybe try research instead of padding out opinions and you may make a valid point one day

and do EXACTLY the same research in to petrol and diesel before you reach a conclusion

^ pretty much this.

Lots of people on PH may not like it, but hybrids are the future. The Prius is the car that has saved the car. I might buy one just to annoy the OP. A really fugly mk1 Prius would be ideal.

[thinfourth2]

I'd far rather have a prius then a vauxhall corsa