power v handling
Discussion
Hi guys
Thinking about fitting water injection to my noble to reduce intake temps.
After waiting to do my run at brighton speed trials power seemed well down,think due to heat sink.
Really hot day plus sitting there waiting for my run did not help.
Anyway going for 500 bhp on my 2.5 up from 450.
question is what sort of power output can be obtained before handling starts to be affected and braking.
Thinking about fitting water injection to my noble to reduce intake temps.
After waiting to do my run at brighton speed trials power seemed well down,think due to heat sink.
Really hot day plus sitting there waiting for my run did not help.
Anyway going for 500 bhp on my 2.5 up from 450.
question is what sort of power output can be obtained before handling starts to be affected and braking.
Hi Steve great question !!! Always generally down to the bloke driving the car , this year I have had the option of running 490bhp or 600 in truth I've found 490 to have been enough for most tracks and the car has felt very able of coping with the power !!
Only towards the end of the year did I feel the brakes were not up to the job and a very long peddle at Rockingham confirmed that a rebuild was necessary .
There is a lot that can be done other than more power that can improve the car !!!!
Tux
Only towards the end of the year did I feel the brakes were not up to the job and a very long peddle at Rockingham confirmed that a rebuild was necessary .
There is a lot that can be done other than more power that can improve the car !!!!
Tux
Thanks Tux,
With you running a noble which i assume was standard when you got it, have you found the power upgrads gave you a lot better track times,know that sounds odd just interested if 600bhp on a twisty track can actualy make you a bit nervous about using all that power n torque.
btw love what you have acheived with your car,and yes i would love 600bhp lol
With you running a noble which i assume was standard when you got it, have you found the power upgrads gave you a lot better track times,know that sounds odd just interested if 600bhp on a twisty track can actualy make you a bit nervous about using all that power n torque.
btw love what you have acheived with your car,and yes i would love 600bhp lol
I will happily admit that I dont own a noble but.......
If your power is dropping because the car is overheating wouldn't it be sensible to cure this problem first before aiming for more power?
Second I can't see why power would ever adversely affect handling, but often quicker lap times come through driver training (don't want to sound patronising), perhaps a practice at the venue to learn the circuit (if possible)- and also through suspension and geo setup.
If your power is dropping because the car is overheating wouldn't it be sensible to cure this problem first before aiming for more power?
Second I can't see why power would ever adversely affect handling, but often quicker lap times come through driver training (don't want to sound patronising), perhaps a practice at the venue to learn the circuit (if possible)- and also through suspension and geo setup.
Hi Steve, I looked at the option of using water injection.in my cozzie days I used a methanol water injection system.I did some extensive testing and when I went to the noble I tried water injection and charge cooling,The data I collected swayed me to using the charge cooler over water injection..debate and skepticism goes on,but having tried both,,I know which I'd recommend
steveobes said:
Thats what im doing mr idiot, 'sorry you dont give your name'
Going to sort out intake temps before upping power, just wanted some feedback on bhp levels on
handling and braking before doing work on car.
500bhp seems ok on current setup
You going to try and push it to 500bhp. That's mental from a 2.5. how do you intend to get this. You are already running about 1.3 bar are you not so are you considering upping boost?Going to sort out intake temps before upping power, just wanted some feedback on bhp levels on
handling and braking before doing work on car.
500bhp seems ok on current setup
Bondy
Tony, would charge cooling help with the issue i had with my brighton run ?
I say this cus you have done loads of testing with your intake temps and its very impressive data.
I assume that charge cooling is most affective when air is moving through cooling rad ?
Is it possible to have both?
I say this cus you have done loads of testing with your intake temps and its very impressive data.
I assume that charge cooling is most affective when air is moving through cooling rad ?
Is it possible to have both?
mgbond said:
You going to try and push it to 500bhp. That's mental from a 2.5. how do you intend to get this. You are already running about 1.3 bar are you not so are you considering upping boost?
Bondy
Hi Bondy, thread seems to be expanding a bit lolBondy
Having water meth injection will cool intake temps enough to increase boost n maybe advance ignition a bit.
Dont worry will reserch this fully before doing something silly
Hi Steve , I actually upgraded most of my suspension and aero before I went for the massive power , I believe the biggest gains are suspension and setup , then power then aero , I have also fitted water meth injection to protect the engine on both low boost and high .
Drivability is not a problem as my engine makes torque and power from 3500 to 7650 .
Yes heat management is pretty important on a noble and there are plenty of ways to improve it , sitting still is a major problem though .
Peak power is not a problem , the chassis copes with it very well it's the high torque levels that I think can cause handling and reliability problems !!!
Tux
Drivability is not a problem as my engine makes torque and power from 3500 to 7650 .
Yes heat management is pretty important on a noble and there are plenty of ways to improve it , sitting still is a major problem though .
Peak power is not a problem , the chassis copes with it very well it's the high torque levels that I think can cause handling and reliability problems !!!
Tux
Steve,yes intake temps go drastically reduce once your on the move,I've found inlet temps still stay lower with a charge cooler running,even on idle. without one installed inlet temps rose quickly.I found that when the pump was turned off, the temps still didn't rise as quick as a standard set up,heat soak didn't rise quickly,and any heat soak was soon removed when on the move.there are a couple of other ways of keeping the temps down for quarter mile sprints etc.a topic I'd rather discus off line from here.
tonyvan said:
Steve,yes intake temps go drastically reduce once your on the move,I've found inlet temps still stay lower with a charge cooler running,even on idle. without one installed inlet temps rose quickly.I found that when the pump was turned off, the temps still didn't rise as quick as a standard set up,heat soak didn't rise quickly,and any heat soak was soon removed when on the move.there are a couple of other ways of keeping the temps down for quarter mile sprints etc.a topic I'd rather discus off line from here.
Suppose im looking for best off both worlds, maybe charge cooling for normal running nwater meth injection for high boost to protect against det.
Hi Steve , Tyres dampers and brakes give the biggest gains after power everything else is just tweaks to improve the package and make the car suit your own style of driving .
I'm hopefully at Silverstone next Sunday if you fancy meeting up for a chat .
Yes spring rate increased over std shocks .
Tux
I'm hopefully at Silverstone next Sunday if you fancy meeting up for a chat .
Yes spring rate increased over std shocks .
Tux
Think the power increase will make a interesting project over the winter as will the shocks n springs.
My son has done a year on a motorsport enginering degree course so gona use this as a bit of a project for him as well.
He,s already sorted my idle problems on cold start by fitting n mapping my idle control valve,how lucky am i lol
My son has done a year on a motorsport enginering degree course so gona use this as a bit of a project for him as well.
He,s already sorted my idle problems on cold start by fitting n mapping my idle control valve,how lucky am i lol
weight is the enemy of handling... all the mods we do add weight so have a negative on our handling.
you can improve on track handling a lot by amending the camber etc and you can change the downforce... i've put mine on a heavy weight loss programme and got it below that of a stock car with the geo mods and the handling is better than it ever was.
of cause with big power it much easier to go too fast into the corners.... but as long as you are able to put the power down both as a driver and a car package it should be faster with more power.
I recendly found what a massive difference setup on the can can make to its ability to put the power down... I always run full power on road and track and never found traction an issue and was able to give full throttle out of corners in 2nd gear when the tyres were warm... but at rockingham I was running low boost at around 200bhp less and the car was blacklining out of all the corners if I gave it full beans... same tyres but the car isnt setup right as I have changes the weight and ride height etc.
Still it surprised me how different the car was and proved the cars overall setup is more important than anything else!
you can improve on track handling a lot by amending the camber etc and you can change the downforce... i've put mine on a heavy weight loss programme and got it below that of a stock car with the geo mods and the handling is better than it ever was.
of cause with big power it much easier to go too fast into the corners.... but as long as you are able to put the power down both as a driver and a car package it should be faster with more power.
I recendly found what a massive difference setup on the can can make to its ability to put the power down... I always run full power on road and track and never found traction an issue and was able to give full throttle out of corners in 2nd gear when the tyres were warm... but at rockingham I was running low boost at around 200bhp less and the car was blacklining out of all the corners if I gave it full beans... same tyres but the car isnt setup right as I have changes the weight and ride height etc.
Still it surprised me how different the car was and proved the cars overall setup is more important than anything else!
thevillage idiot said:
Oh also I don't have much experience of turbo cars- but along with pure bhp isnt it as important to have the power setup so that delivery is progressive with a nice broad torque curve? 600bhp all in the final 1500rpm with sod all before would be a bit of a disaster.
I had more than 600bhp for over 2000rpm and over 500bhp for 3500rpm!... these cars are fast because of the huge power band! There are times when 600 is too much perhaps, on both nurburgring and spa I frustratingly found myself going 3-4 seconds a lap faster running low boost (500) than high boost, the torque on high boost does make the car more difficult to control in corners but I plan to have that mapped down a bit in the mid range, the key is to be smooth. The following trip to the ring I then had the 'push to pass' button wired to the steering wheel and using the high boost only on straights found my lap time drop by a further 10 seconds.
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