RE: FBS Deliver
Monday 17th June 2002
FBS Deliver
First customer car nearly ready, next slot in August
Discussion
FBS-future of British sports cars? I wouldn't be so boastful if THAT was my product. You could say the tamora was an acquired taste, there is no fear of me acquiring an FBS!!! I'm not suprised there isn't a morgan style waiting list. How many people out there have 25k to spend on a car and haven't seen any others?:-)
Just to try and kill this once and for all, we are not really that arrogant. "The Future of British Sportscars" was a misquote by Tiff Needell. The offical translation is a more modest "Future British Sportscar". The original meaning is something alse entirely but there might be children reading this!
On the other point (and this is a genuine question) does everyone only want a car they have seen other people in or do some people have more individuality and the ability to form their own judgements?
On the other point (and this is a genuine question) does everyone only want a car they have seen other people in or do some people have more individuality and the ability to form their own judgements?
That two people could build a technically excellent car is remarkable. The superficiality of most of the people here is, sadly, a common trait, and all the average layman looks at is appearance, with no understanding of what good design really is. I appreciate what FBS have achieved. However, the car is not pretty, and looks are important (it's just not the only thing) - but more importantly, to the buying public looks are maybe 95% of what is important. Unfortunately the average person is dumber than you think. Therefore, I would suggest a body redesign, plus hire Dave Minter to work on the ride and handling, the article I read about the FBS critcised this. With a stiffer body than the Elise, and probably similar polar moment of inertia (the Elise is really a phoney mid engine car; with the engine transversely mounted it is just a FWD car driving backwards), there is no reason it couldn't have similar levels of involvement, it's just time to bring some other people in to soften out the rough edges. Don't get discouraged by uninformed criticism, but don't be afraid to consider suggestions wherever they come from.
Hello Steven RT,
Thanks for the considered comments, keep them coming everyone.
I think you have read the Top Gear mag’ review as it is the only one to criticise the handling, performance or comfort of the Census. That review appears to be of a different car from the other half dozen or so we have had, including two by PH (they are all either on or linked from our website). I have met Dave Minter (he signed-off my Lotus track pass in 1992!) but given the near universal praise for the dynamics (the one TG mag’ item is the only critical one) I suspect he may not have too much to add. We certainly have better balance than an Elise, the mark 1 dealer demonstrator I drove had potentially lethal levels of lift off oversteer.
You are absolutely right that there are areas where the car can (and will over time) be improved. They are all cosmetic, none are relevant to its functionality or reliability as a sports car. Anyone who wants to get involved in these areas would be most welcome.
Census’ styling was chosen to be individual, we thought that a small number of people would like something original. Indeed, some people really like it though very few of them read PH! Anyway, unless someone wants to put in a couple of hundred grand and wait a couple of years, we have this styling for now. Three people have liked it enough to actually hand over cash which as Ted says is less than we would like but it’s early days and we never made the ridiculous volume predictions a lot of start ups make. Some of them have yet to deliver anything despite massive amounts more of both time and money than us.
thanks again
Joe90
Thanks for the considered comments, keep them coming everyone.
I think you have read the Top Gear mag’ review as it is the only one to criticise the handling, performance or comfort of the Census. That review appears to be of a different car from the other half dozen or so we have had, including two by PH (they are all either on or linked from our website). I have met Dave Minter (he signed-off my Lotus track pass in 1992!) but given the near universal praise for the dynamics (the one TG mag’ item is the only critical one) I suspect he may not have too much to add. We certainly have better balance than an Elise, the mark 1 dealer demonstrator I drove had potentially lethal levels of lift off oversteer.
You are absolutely right that there are areas where the car can (and will over time) be improved. They are all cosmetic, none are relevant to its functionality or reliability as a sports car. Anyone who wants to get involved in these areas would be most welcome.
Census’ styling was chosen to be individual, we thought that a small number of people would like something original. Indeed, some people really like it though very few of them read PH! Anyway, unless someone wants to put in a couple of hundred grand and wait a couple of years, we have this styling for now. Three people have liked it enough to actually hand over cash which as Ted says is less than we would like but it’s early days and we never made the ridiculous volume predictions a lot of start ups make. Some of them have yet to deliver anything despite massive amounts more of both time and money than us.
thanks again
Joe90
The car shown in the latest news item received its SVA today and has now been taxed and registered for collection by the customer tommorrow. Just two years and one day from full funding of the project. All on a budget of less than half a million pounds. Makes me wonder what some other companies are doing with their time & money :-)
Hello MattC,
195 / 50 R15 is the only approved tyre size for the Census so yes every review was on these tyres. In fact the only tyre we have ever used is the Avon ZV1 because it works really well, comes at a very good OE price & minimum order quantity (thanks Avon); and it's British made. The car has excellent grip, feel and response with these tyres (check out our reviews from Petrol Ted, Tiff Needell, etc.).
This choice of an unfashionable tyre size was engineering driven, i.e. performance over appearance. I am not a chassis engineer but I do know from both my own experience and our chassis designer (who also designed the front suspension of the new Mini so he is one of the best) that ever wider, lower profile tyres do not usually do anything but harm to steer feel, stability on rutted roads and probably lots of other things.
Manufacturers offering ever larger wheels and tyres has a lot to do with customers prioritising looks over function. I know for a fact that BMW chassis engineers think their cars (saloons and Mini) drive better on the smaller higher profile tyres.
The reduced sidewall flex with very low profile tyres is actually a problem if it is taken to ridiculous extremes (I am not advocating a return to 100 section cross plies!), it causes the tracking along ruts and harsh ride that make for a worse sports car. Don't fall for the stiff + harsh = good theory, Colin Chapman didn't and I am happy to follow his technical lead.
Incidentally, there was quite an intelligent discussion around these issues on PH recently, see:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=9&h=0&t=10359
thanks
Joe90
195 / 50 R15 is the only approved tyre size for the Census so yes every review was on these tyres. In fact the only tyre we have ever used is the Avon ZV1 because it works really well, comes at a very good OE price & minimum order quantity (thanks Avon); and it's British made. The car has excellent grip, feel and response with these tyres (check out our reviews from Petrol Ted, Tiff Needell, etc.).
This choice of an unfashionable tyre size was engineering driven, i.e. performance over appearance. I am not a chassis engineer but I do know from both my own experience and our chassis designer (who also designed the front suspension of the new Mini so he is one of the best) that ever wider, lower profile tyres do not usually do anything but harm to steer feel, stability on rutted roads and probably lots of other things.
Manufacturers offering ever larger wheels and tyres has a lot to do with customers prioritising looks over function. I know for a fact that BMW chassis engineers think their cars (saloons and Mini) drive better on the smaller higher profile tyres.
The reduced sidewall flex with very low profile tyres is actually a problem if it is taken to ridiculous extremes (I am not advocating a return to 100 section cross plies!), it causes the tracking along ruts and harsh ride that make for a worse sports car. Don't fall for the stiff + harsh = good theory, Colin Chapman didn't and I am happy to follow his technical lead.
Incidentally, there was quite an intelligent discussion around these issues on PH recently, see:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=9&h=0&t=10359
thanks
Joe90
Hi Andrew,
do you have any plans to take the Census to Scotland & demo it at Knockhill (say) in the way that Noble did last year?
I should say up front that I have no immediate plans to change my TVR Chimaera, but I would be interested to see how it handles (I'm happy with the handling of my Chimarea, but I know you don't rate it as a good handling car, so if the Census is a lot better, then that will be impressive)
I'm sure you would find a few fellow PistonHeaders north of the border who would be interested, although I completely understand if you feel that your limited budget be better spent elsewhere.
cheers,
Craig
>> Edited by craigalsop on Friday 21st June 11:18
do you have any plans to take the Census to Scotland & demo it at Knockhill (say) in the way that Noble did last year?
I should say up front that I have no immediate plans to change my TVR Chimaera, but I would be interested to see how it handles (I'm happy with the handling of my Chimarea, but I know you don't rate it as a good handling car, so if the Census is a lot better, then that will be impressive)
I'm sure you would find a few fellow PistonHeaders north of the border who would be interested, although I completely understand if you feel that your limited budget be better spent elsewhere.
cheers,
Craig
>> Edited by craigalsop on Friday 21st June 11:18
Hello Craig,
Great photo of your car and very suitable registration for a weapon like a TVR, well done!
I am in Scotland for approximately 19th to 22nd July and hope to bring proto 3. I am committed to a wedding on Saturday 20th but could meet up Sunday or Monday. I think it is near Falkirk somewhere, let me know (andrewbarber@fbs-eng.co.uk) if you want to try and arrange something.
On the Chimaera, I have been looking at some stuff on PH about poor handling Griffiths and it appears that TVRs may be very inconsistent so maybe I drove a bad one. This is why we set the front and rear ride height, camber and toe on all our cars; it is impractical without millions of pounds of tooling just to build cars and expect them to be all the same.
Joe90
Great photo of your car and very suitable registration for a weapon like a TVR, well done!
I am in Scotland for approximately 19th to 22nd July and hope to bring proto 3. I am committed to a wedding on Saturday 20th but could meet up Sunday or Monday. I think it is near Falkirk somewhere, let me know (andrewbarber@fbs-eng.co.uk) if you want to try and arrange something.
On the Chimaera, I have been looking at some stuff on PH about poor handling Griffiths and it appears that TVRs may be very inconsistent so maybe I drove a bad one. This is why we set the front and rear ride height, camber and toe on all our cars; it is impractical without millions of pounds of tooling just to build cars and expect them to be all the same.
Joe90
I know one of the changes made in the Elise S2 was adoption of a smaller tyre; with such a light car, in wet weather a large contact patch reduces the contact pressure so much that the rubber doesn't mesh properly with the road (the water forms a barrier). This was one of the reasons that I know of for the S1 wet weather behaviour, ie lots of crashes. WIth the smaller contact patch in the S2, wet grip is improved. Dry grip is compensated for by using a gripper compound, so even though there is less rubber on the road, the dry grib is just as good. My point is that it is a mature choice to limit tyre size, even if aesthetically and for the moron punter big wheels and rubber are de riguer.
Sorry, my last post was unhelpful and shite. The car may be a technical masterpiece, but it is lacking a lot in the looks department. This type of vehicle will be compared to the likes of the Elise, xtr2, Radical, Renault Spyder, Ginetta, Coram, TVR S, SSC, DAX. These are all good looking. This is, errr, not. I can't imagine they will sell too many until the styling is improved. There must be some freelance design talent out there somewhere. What's the point of going to all that technical effort when it's let down by the only bit you actually see? Only my opinion though.
quote:
quote:
... wet weather a large contact patch reduces the contact pressure so much ...
I though the contact pressure is always, and always, the same as the tyre pressure. Or am I missing something?
Yes you are missing something.
Tyre pressure, internal pressure exerted by the compressed gas within the tyre.
Contact pressure, vehicle weight applied to a specific wheel divided by area of tyre tread in contact with the ground.
PS Tyre pressure is effectively the same whether or not the wheel is attached to the vehicle.
>> Edited by gnomesmith on Sunday 23 June 01:44
>> Edited by gnomesmith on Sunday 23 June 01:45
Stevenrt, I don't think you're quite right about the tyre and wet grip. The tread pattern on a tyre is a high factor. Lots of wider tyres have asymetric directional tread patterns to help the flow of water away from the surface.
The reason Elise S1 were not good in the wet was mostly due to Perelli P0 which was a tyre designed for a heavier car, and lack of experience from drivers of mid-engine cars. However the yokohamas are a much better tyre and offer better grip in the rain, and the width was INCREASED with the s160 and Exige.
Whilst its true thinner tyres are better in extreme conditions (snow/v wet), for overall conditions a good make with good water flow would be better for the car.
The reason Elise S1 were not good in the wet was mostly due to Perelli P0 which was a tyre designed for a heavier car, and lack of experience from drivers of mid-engine cars. However the yokohamas are a much better tyre and offer better grip in the rain, and the width was INCREASED with the s160 and Exige.
Whilst its true thinner tyres are better in extreme conditions (snow/v wet), for overall conditions a good make with good water flow would be better for the car.
quote:
Yes you are missing something.
So I’m told ...
quote:
Tyre pressure, internal pressure exerted by the compressed gas within the tyre.
agreed
quote:
Tyre pressure is effectively the same whether or not the wheel is attached to the vehicle.
agreed – to all practical intents and purposes
quote:
Contact pressure, vehicle weight applied to a specific wheel divided by area of tyre tread in contact with the ground.
agreed as well.
But – hmm –
- OK, there’ll be a component of the load transferred through the sidewalls of the tyre rather than through the pressure inside the tyre, for all that the pressure will take the majority. And with lower profile tyres the sidewalls will be stiffer and so able to transfer more of the load. Which will … decrease the contact area! Does this mean we agree?
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