ISF Water pump failure on 2 month old purchase
Discussion
Appreciate the PH guidance on this - I purchased a 2008 Lexus ISF from a dealer (not lexus but a major other japanese manufacturer).
2 months later and having covers around 500 miles it appears the water pump has failed and is leaking coolant. This was only found out as the coolant is going down and through a bit of research on the ISF forums.
The cars a 2008 with 36k on the clock. Ive spend £20+k on the car with Lexus FSH, so would expect it to last a bit more than 2 months before it goes wrong!!
Ive gone back to the garage and they have basically told me to foxtrot Oscar! I'm thinking sale of goods act etc. Lexus want about £450 to fix, but out of principle I would like the garage to at least help out with the majority.
I appreicate that things go wrong and maybe I should "Man Up", get out the wallet and pay for it to be sorted, or would you get all SOGA (sales of goods act) on them and go through small claims court?
Open to the PH masses...I promise to abide by the PH decision.
2 months later and having covers around 500 miles it appears the water pump has failed and is leaking coolant. This was only found out as the coolant is going down and through a bit of research on the ISF forums.
The cars a 2008 with 36k on the clock. Ive spend £20+k on the car with Lexus FSH, so would expect it to last a bit more than 2 months before it goes wrong!!
Ive gone back to the garage and they have basically told me to foxtrot Oscar! I'm thinking sale of goods act etc. Lexus want about £450 to fix, but out of principle I would like the garage to at least help out with the majority.
I appreicate that things go wrong and maybe I should "Man Up", get out the wallet and pay for it to be sorted, or would you get all SOGA (sales of goods act) on them and go through small claims court?
Open to the PH masses...I promise to abide by the PH decision.
If you bought it from a dealer as a retail car then its under warranty, their own or one they supplied as an extra, either way its covered.
(Assuming you didn't buy it on the pretense it was a trade sale, to a trader cheap etc in which case they might not be too pleased which is understandable)
(Assuming you didn't buy it on the pretense it was a trade sale, to a trader cheap etc in which case they might not be too pleased which is understandable)
First things first, get no work done without the authorisation of the dealer, or you could end up having to pay for it yourself.
You are not liable for this work. The dealer is liable, no matter what the conditions of the sale, because as a retail customer you are protected by the SOGA and the car must be fit for purpose. It isn't, so the dealer must take steps at their own expense to rectify the situation. Usually this means they pay for the repairs to be made to an acceptable standard.
However, as they have been so outrageously unscrupulous - basically lying to you in pretending there should be no comeback in this situation - ask yourself whether you really want anything at all to do with them. I would, in this situation, want to simply reject the car on the basis of it being unfit for purpose and the dealer's malpractice in their reaction. This should be plenty justification.
This means you can recoup your full purchase price.. And then go and spend your money with someone who isn't an a
hole!
You are not liable for this work. The dealer is liable, no matter what the conditions of the sale, because as a retail customer you are protected by the SOGA and the car must be fit for purpose. It isn't, so the dealer must take steps at their own expense to rectify the situation. Usually this means they pay for the repairs to be made to an acceptable standard.
However, as they have been so outrageously unscrupulous - basically lying to you in pretending there should be no comeback in this situation - ask yourself whether you really want anything at all to do with them. I would, in this situation, want to simply reject the car on the basis of it being unfit for purpose and the dealer's malpractice in their reaction. This should be plenty justification.
This means you can recoup your full purchase price.. And then go and spend your money with someone who isn't an a
hole!McSam said:
First things first, get no work done without the authorisation of the dealer, or you could end up having to pay for it yourself.
You are not liable for this work. The dealer is liable, no matter what the conditions of the sale, because as a retail customer you are protected by the SOGA and the car must be fit for purpose. It isn't, so the dealer must take steps at their own expense to rectify the situation. Usually this means they pay for the repairs to be made to an acceptable standard.
However, as they have been so outrageously unscrupulous - basically lying to you in pretending there should be no comeback in this situation - ask yourself whether you really want anything at all to do with them. I would, in this situation, want to simply reject the car on the basis of it being unfit for purpose and the dealer's malpractice in their reaction. This should be plenty justification.
This means you can recoup your full purchase price.. And then go and spend your money with someone who isn't an ahole!
We hear this advice SO often but the actual reality is so different. They've refused to fix the water pump so do you really think if you go and say "I reject this car, good sir!" they will give you back your money?You are not liable for this work. The dealer is liable, no matter what the conditions of the sale, because as a retail customer you are protected by the SOGA and the car must be fit for purpose. It isn't, so the dealer must take steps at their own expense to rectify the situation. Usually this means they pay for the repairs to be made to an acceptable standard.
However, as they have been so outrageously unscrupulous - basically lying to you in pretending there should be no comeback in this situation - ask yourself whether you really want anything at all to do with them. I would, in this situation, want to simply reject the car on the basis of it being unfit for purpose and the dealer's malpractice in their reaction. This should be plenty justification.
This means you can recoup your full purchase price.. And then go and spend your money with someone who isn't an a
hole!They won't, so you'll need to take them to court. Count on maybe £1500 - £2000 in solicitors fees as a minimum and a couple of months dicking about, while you have no car to use. Bleating about rights is all well and good but in the real world you have to deal with facts, and those facts are that you may be legally entitled to reject the car but if you try and do so it will be a long, costly and stressful process.
Your best bet for this situation is going to be to get a written refusal from them to do the work, if you can, although making notes of times and dates you spoke to them and what they said will do. Get the work done elsewhere and keep the invoices, then go to the small claims court to get your money back. It'll cost you £50 or so that you can't recover, plus if you use a solicitor you don't get costs back but for something this simple you'll be able to do it yourself. Usually once they get the summons they'll just cough up anyway.
Obviously it's preposterous on here to suggest anything other than rejecting a car for a small issue, but...
Isn't a leaking water pump (through the weep hole) a design feature to show that the pump is on its way out? In which case, I apologise for the Devil's Advocate approach, but could it not be considered that this is wear and tear, and so wouldn't be covered by most warranties anyways?
My advice would be to DIY or find a nice local independent.
Isn't a leaking water pump (through the weep hole) a design feature to show that the pump is on its way out? In which case, I apologise for the Devil's Advocate approach, but could it not be considered that this is wear and tear, and so wouldn't be covered by most warranties anyways?
My advice would be to DIY or find a nice local independent.
For a Lexus with such low miles on the clock and a FSH, it may also be worth writing a very solem letter to Lexus about your situation and hinting that you're first experience of one of the 'worlds most reliable manufacturers' hasn't been a good one so far. They _can_ be quite generous, so may offer to help you out a little.
FD3Si said:
Obviously it's preposterous on here to suggest anything other than rejecting a car for a small issue, but...
Isn't a leaking water pump (through the weep hole) a design feature to show that the pump is on its way out? In which case, I apologise for the Devil's Advocate approach, but could it not be considered that this is wear and tear, and so wouldn't be covered by most warranties anyways?
My advice would be to DIY or find a nice local independent.
On a higher-mileage example you'd be right, but at 36k miles (or thereabouts) I'll bet that's < half the manufacturer's recommended replacement interval. I wouldn't say a water pump wearing out so quickly is normal wear and tear, it's a mechanical failure.Isn't a leaking water pump (through the weep hole) a design feature to show that the pump is on its way out? In which case, I apologise for the Devil's Advocate approach, but could it not be considered that this is wear and tear, and so wouldn't be covered by most warranties anyways?
My advice would be to DIY or find a nice local independent.
Just had a re-read of the OP and I'm wondering how the conclusion was drawn that the pump is actually dead?
op said:
This was only found out as the coolant is going down and through a bit of research on the ISF forums.
Would hate to see you go through all of this only to find that it was merely a split hose or loose clip.McSam said:
I would, in this situation, want to simply reject the car on the basis of it being unfit for purpose and the dealer's malpractice in their reaction. This should be plenty justification.
Has anyone actually done this? As someone suggests it on every thread related to new(ish) car problems.Krikkit said:
On a higher-mileage example you'd be right, but at 36k miles (or thereabouts) I'll bet that's < half the manufacturer's recommended replacement interval. I wouldn't say a water pump wearing out so quickly is normal wear and tear, it's a mechanical failure.
Fair point. I'd glossed over the mileage/age part as I'm only used to snotty old bangers. In which case, I'd suggest a rather snotty correspondence chain with Lexus - I know that VW in the past were remarkably helpful with my mum's 3 year old Polo when it was found that both the cat and gearbox were knackered just shy of 40k.
Cheers all - appreciate the pointers. I've done a bit of research on ISF forums and it appears the cars weak point is the water pump. It has now been replaced with a new part number as the old one (currently on mine) is known to fail by leaking. However this is not a recall part, therefore not done under a campaign.
Dealer has come back saying "do one" as if I look on my paperwork small print its sold "without warranty". Im not a trader and certainly never gave any indication I was.
Lexus have raised the possibility of a bit of good will, but as the original dealer seem to be a bunch of anchors I think small claims will be the only way.
My come back is that under SOGA, the warranty or not argument is neither here nor there.
Dealer has come back saying "do one" as if I look on my paperwork small print its sold "without warranty". Im not a trader and certainly never gave any indication I was.
Lexus have raised the possibility of a bit of good will, but as the original dealer seem to be a bunch of anchors I think small claims will be the only way.
My come back is that under SOGA, the warranty or not argument is neither here nor there.
dme123 said:
We hear this advice SO often but the actual reality is so different. They've refused to fix the water pump so do you really think if you go and say "I reject this car, good sir!" they will give you back your money?
They won't, so you'll need to take them to court. Count on maybe £1500 - £2000 in solicitors fees as a minimum and a couple of months dicking about, while you have no car to use. Bleating about rights is all well and good but in the real world you have to deal with facts, and those facts are that you may be legally entitled to reject the car but if you try and do so it will be a long, costly and stressful process.
Your best bet for this situation is going to be to get a written refusal from them to do the work, if you can, although making notes of times and dates you spoke to them and what they said will do. Get the work done elsewhere and keep the invoices, then go to the small claims court to get your money back. It'll cost you £50 or so that you can't recover, plus if you use a solicitor you don't get costs back but for something this simple you'll be able to do it yourself. Usually once they get the summons they'll just cough up anyway.
If you walk in on your own, yes, you're going to have problems. However, local Trading Standards authorities take a very dim view of such an attitude, so most dealers will immediately want to avoid the hassle once they get involved.They won't, so you'll need to take them to court. Count on maybe £1500 - £2000 in solicitors fees as a minimum and a couple of months dicking about, while you have no car to use. Bleating about rights is all well and good but in the real world you have to deal with facts, and those facts are that you may be legally entitled to reject the car but if you try and do so it will be a long, costly and stressful process.
Your best bet for this situation is going to be to get a written refusal from them to do the work, if you can, although making notes of times and dates you spoke to them and what they said will do. Get the work done elsewhere and keep the invoices, then go to the small claims court to get your money back. It'll cost you £50 or so that you can't recover, plus if you use a solicitor you don't get costs back but for something this simple you'll be able to do it yourself. Usually once they get the summons they'll just cough up anyway.
I don't advocate rejecting cars for tiny issues, and this problem alone certainly isn't enough to reject a car - but my point was that I think the OP would be best served using it as an excuse to get out of a car sold by a dealer with exceptionally poor service.
And that "clause" on their paperwork about the vehicle being sold without warranty makes no difference whatsoever, and only cements the above..
Four Litre said:
Cheers all - appreciate the pointers. I've done a bit of research on ISF forums and it appears the cars weak point is the water pump. It has now been replaced with a new part number as the old one (currently on mine) is known to fail by leaking. However this is not a recall part, therefore not done under a campaign.
Dealer has come back saying "do one" as if I look on my paperwork small print its sold "without warranty". Im not a trader and certainly never gave any indication I was.
Lexus have raised the possibility of a bit of good will, but as the original dealer seem to be a bunch of anchors I think small claims will be the only way.
My come back is that under SOGA, the warranty or not argument is neither here nor there.
And the original dealer is a franchised dealer of another big manufacturer, selling without warranty!?Dealer has come back saying "do one" as if I look on my paperwork small print its sold "without warranty". Im not a trader and certainly never gave any indication I was.
Lexus have raised the possibility of a bit of good will, but as the original dealer seem to be a bunch of anchors I think small claims will be the only way.
My come back is that under SOGA, the warranty or not argument is neither here nor there.
I am sure the manufacturer would take a dim view of this as they often have used car schemes that include other makes. Also given the fact you are a retail customer, they dont really have a leg to stand on under SOGA.
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