I'm worried about Porsche
Discussion
I love the look of the 991 and as an aston-alike gt car it's great. Loads of bulky console area and goodies and refinement. Turbo will be amazing and I'd love to drive one. Everything cool.
But where's the 911? Ok we have the look still but where's the DNA of that traditionally lightweight, characterful, iconic out and out drivers' car with cult following and small boys turning their heads to watch one roar past and get a poster of?
Ok so we had GT2s and GT3s in the last two generations which went close to that icon
But what here? Gt3 isn't looking good so far with probably pdk only and no doubt more bloaty and feature packed. So far there's nothing coming down the lines for my typical 3 year old purchase and I'm not happy.
Ok so I'm not exactly hurting bad with the current steed but it's becoming increasingly hard to think beyond the possible 997gt3 rs or possibly 997gt2.
The dry sump death to me is making it feel pretty dark in the porsche camp
SM
But where's the 911? Ok we have the look still but where's the DNA of that traditionally lightweight, characterful, iconic out and out drivers' car with cult following and small boys turning their heads to watch one roar past and get a poster of?
Ok so we had GT2s and GT3s in the last two generations which went close to that icon
But what here? Gt3 isn't looking good so far with probably pdk only and no doubt more bloaty and feature packed. So far there's nothing coming down the lines for my typical 3 year old purchase and I'm not happy.
Ok so I'm not exactly hurting bad with the current steed but it's becoming increasingly hard to think beyond the possible 997gt3 rs or possibly 997gt2.
The dry sump death to me is making it feel pretty dark in the porsche camp
SM
Have to agree.
I drove a 991 when I was buying my 997tt to amke sure I wasn't making a mistake, and whilst it's a great car it didn't feel like a 911 to me.
I wanted a 997 GT3, an RS ideally, but I compromised on the Turbo as it had to be practical and a daily drive. I know it's a compromise but I love it and I can still feel the Porsche DNA in the Turbo and GT3... the evolution from the 993 and 964 was right there. The 991 felt like a different car.
I think Porsche are moving away from their roots as that it what most people want, however. It's what happens when companies are run by bean counters rather than engineers and enthusiasts.
I drove a 991 when I was buying my 997tt to amke sure I wasn't making a mistake, and whilst it's a great car it didn't feel like a 911 to me.
I wanted a 997 GT3, an RS ideally, but I compromised on the Turbo as it had to be practical and a daily drive. I know it's a compromise but I love it and I can still feel the Porsche DNA in the Turbo and GT3... the evolution from the 993 and 964 was right there. The 991 felt like a different car.
I think Porsche are moving away from their roots as that it what most people want, however. It's what happens when companies are run by bean counters rather than engineers and enthusiasts.
I guess they are just moving with the times and consumers' wants. We all know that if Porsche wanted to build a lighweight, performance-focused car they could, but it would have be at the cost of creature comforts. You only need to look at how many Spyders and Cayman R's are high-specced to see that this is what a high percentage of today's motoring public want. Steve Rance's earlier thread that asked if we would purchase a super lightweight, hard core track version appears to reflect this to some extent and that's from a group of PHer's.
t.The evolution of the 911 must generate many heated meetings within Porsche. Oh, to be a fly on the wall! For me, the question all revolves around how large a market they want to penetrate.
It's easy to increase this by making the car more user friendly in terms of practicality, economy, ease of use, safety etc etc. But how far to go? At what point does it cease being a 911?
If you continue down this path, the ultimate conclusion is you end up with a diesel auto mondeo estate.
The New GT3 is going to be massively important to the future DNA of Porsche and will show us where they are going.
It's easy to increase this by making the car more user friendly in terms of practicality, economy, ease of use, safety etc etc. But how far to go? At what point does it cease being a 911?
If you continue down this path, the ultimate conclusion is you end up with a diesel auto mondeo estate.
The New GT3 is going to be massively important to the future DNA of Porsche and will show us where they are going.
The 991 is the first new 911 ever to be lighter than the last. In certain guises it's lighter than the 993 and only about 30kg more than the 996 RS. My 964 C4 was actually heavier.
More refined, yes, blunter steering, yes, heavier, no.
If you've ever done a motorway journey in a 2.7 RS you'll agree that for day to day use the 991's 400kg is well spent.
More refined, yes, blunter steering, yes, heavier, no.
If you've ever done a motorway journey in a 2.7 RS you'll agree that for day to day use the 991's 400kg is well spent.
To the OP: Couldn't agree more. From what I have read on the interweb I have real difficulties to get excited about the upcoming GT3.
The 7.2 GT3 is perfectly usable as a daily driver. Yesterday I did a 350 mile roundtrip in mine and the folding buckets are by far the most comfortable seats I ever had in a car - even compared to the likes of my Conti GT. I don't see any need to add further features and comfort to this particular model. Actually, there is quite a bit I could live without it day to day.
The main attributes I am looking for are directness, feel and noise and I keep my fingers crossed that some of this DNA survives in the coming GT3. If they don't get it right, then I prefer an Italia which is designed to be a tech feast and pretty good at living up to the script whilst providing the right level of emotions too
The 7.2 GT3 is perfectly usable as a daily driver. Yesterday I did a 350 mile roundtrip in mine and the folding buckets are by far the most comfortable seats I ever had in a car - even compared to the likes of my Conti GT. I don't see any need to add further features and comfort to this particular model. Actually, there is quite a bit I could live without it day to day.
The main attributes I am looking for are directness, feel and noise and I keep my fingers crossed that some of this DNA survives in the coming GT3. If they don't get it right, then I prefer an Italia which is designed to be a tech feast and pretty good at living up to the script whilst providing the right level of emotions too
In Guildford OPC yesterday and i kept looking at the 997's in there and not the 991's. I think the 997's from the outside look more raw than the newer. Having seen the pics of the new C4S, it looks bloated not like the rump of the 996 thats for sure. Not exactly JLo, more Bella Emberg!
I think the results from EVO coty are also representative - 996 and 997 both won that in their standard forms.
My view - before now the 911 was always sports car first, GT second. This is what has differentiated it from its competitors. The 991 - well it's not all gloom and doom, but I think the concept has been slightly compromised with it getting physically bigger (if it had stayed the same size it would have dropped even more weight), having electric steering (which is a clear compromise no matter how much they improve it) and having in my opinion an overly plush interior.
It hasn't come from the same starting point as a Jag XK or BMW 6 series, but is has moved ever so slightly closer to them.
Given that they have managed to reduce the weight however, all is not lost and I think they can and probably will pull it out of the bag for the GT3, but it's a shame that a lot of 997 owners don't find the basic 991 as desirable as their existing car.
My view - before now the 911 was always sports car first, GT second. This is what has differentiated it from its competitors. The 991 - well it's not all gloom and doom, but I think the concept has been slightly compromised with it getting physically bigger (if it had stayed the same size it would have dropped even more weight), having electric steering (which is a clear compromise no matter how much they improve it) and having in my opinion an overly plush interior.
It hasn't come from the same starting point as a Jag XK or BMW 6 series, but is has moved ever so slightly closer to them.
Given that they have managed to reduce the weight however, all is not lost and I think they can and probably will pull it out of the bag for the GT3, but it's a shame that a lot of 997 owners don't find the basic 991 as desirable as their existing car.
Couldn't agree more about the 991. Had an hours drive at the Sportscar Driving Event a couple of weeks ago including going on some really good roads but it's so far from my idea of what a sportscar should be. The type of car that has you incredibly excited about aspiring to own one. As I was driving it, I thought I wonder what car I'd think this was if I didn't know. The answer was maybe a Panamera? Sure it's great quality / looks great etc but just not for me.
As a 991 owner I can't disagree with many of the observations here about the increased refinement/reduced feel. Fact is, though, that for 90% of my driving, which is a 30 mile commute into town on busy A road and motorway, the 991 is virtually perfect. Comfortable, quiet(er, it's still not a Lexus, thank god), torquey, and incredibly smooth with PDK in either normal or sport. Then for the little moments that light up the commute, those twisties three miles in, that big roundabout at the motorway junction, the quick overtake, the 991 turns into a real grin-inducing sports car. But relaxes back into GT the minute you ease off, which isn't going to be to everyone's taste.
As for the other 10%. The driving for its own sake hoon. My gut response is to say that the 991 has to be pushed somewhat (unreasonably?) assertively to expose its sporting capabilities. They are there but nowhere near as accessible as in the air-cooled cars. At slow speeds you need to invoke Sports Plus and keep the revs high to wake up the chassis. This also improves steering feel. But the 991 really excels at higher speeds when you can turn in faster and more positively. Try some rapid direction changes (especially with PDCC) and it is downright incredible how little roll is induced, but without sacrificing your sense of grip. Believe me, a PDCC equipped 991 will slalom a GT3 into humiliating submission.
My criticism wouldn't be directed at the car's capabilities so much as at the high (ie licence-threatening) envelope in which they are revealed. I fancy putting these thoughts to the test. It's a sunny afternoon. I'm off for a half hour hoon across the Dales. Let's see if she's a sports car.
As for the other 10%. The driving for its own sake hoon. My gut response is to say that the 991 has to be pushed somewhat (unreasonably?) assertively to expose its sporting capabilities. They are there but nowhere near as accessible as in the air-cooled cars. At slow speeds you need to invoke Sports Plus and keep the revs high to wake up the chassis. This also improves steering feel. But the 991 really excels at higher speeds when you can turn in faster and more positively. Try some rapid direction changes (especially with PDCC) and it is downright incredible how little roll is induced, but without sacrificing your sense of grip. Believe me, a PDCC equipped 991 will slalom a GT3 into humiliating submission.
My criticism wouldn't be directed at the car's capabilities so much as at the high (ie licence-threatening) envelope in which they are revealed. I fancy putting these thoughts to the test. It's a sunny afternoon. I'm off for a half hour hoon across the Dales. Let's see if she's a sports car.
I have to agree with the previous poster. It is just great if you guys enjoy 997 better because it is cheaper for you 
911 is about evolution and not selling the same car like Aston does. To me 911 is the porsche with back seats, performance of which threatens two-seaters from other manufactures.
911 is about evolution and not selling the same car like Aston does. To me 911 is the porsche with back seats, performance of which threatens two-seaters from other manufactures.mollytherocker said:
The 996 was actually lighter than the 993.
Spot on.It's funny but a few friends and I had a conversation about this today and a number of them think that the "911" has now died. Yes the 991 is a good car (is it great only time will tell) but I'm starting to think that the 997 GT3 was the last car to have a strong thread of the 911 DNA coursing through it's chassis!!!!
Mind you having said that I would still like to have a closer look at one in say three years when the dreaded depreciation has slowed.
Steve
It was me who confirmed the dry sump line was repurposed because the guy doing my factory tour last week told me so.
I see no reason at all why they'd spend money developing a new dry sump engine when they're so proud about being able to build the entire boxer engine range on the same line. Basically whatever porsche boxer you drive it has the same or almost the same core engine. I wonder about the 991 cup though. If they can get that reliable and competitive I guess there might be hope for another road car with pedigree.
SM
I see no reason at all why they'd spend money developing a new dry sump engine when they're so proud about being able to build the entire boxer engine range on the same line. Basically whatever porsche boxer you drive it has the same or almost the same core engine. I wonder about the 991 cup though. If they can get that reliable and competitive I guess there might be hope for another road car with pedigree.
SM
Edited by supermono on Sunday 4th November 18:08
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