Classic car owner disappeared
Discussion
Not sure if in correct forum, so please move if not.
Bit of background information:
My father is and has been a classic car restorer all his life. Around 20-25 years ago he took on a complete no-money-no-object restoration of a rapidly appreciating British sports car. The owner was from London way and as work got underway he was paying his invoices on the button. This continued for around a year (dad isn’t the quickest) until he had contact from the owner asking to stop work until further notice as he had got in to pretty serious financial trouble. Roll forward 5 years, my father moved premises and wrote to the owner to advise and ask what he would like to do with the car. He had no response so moved the car to his new premises. This happened again 10 years on from this date and again, had no response. My dad has not changed business names in this period or indeed telephone numbers, so the owner could not have tried to get in touch.
Skipping forward to present day, my father still has the car in his workshops but is now looking to retire and doesn’t really know what to do with it. I would guess in it’s current state it could be worth around £ 30,000 with good examples of these are fetching between £ 100-200K currently.
Thing is, my father quite fancies completing it as a retirement project and i’m looking for a bit of advice:
Would my father be entitled to invoice the owner for 20-25 years of storage charges or offer to take the car in payment for this? If this is possible, how would he go about getting the V5 changed in to his name? I assume it is going to involve a solicitor’s letter in the first instance?
Bit of an odd situation I know and if it was only worth £ 500, it would have been a lot easier to sort.
Cheers in advance,
Jim
Bit of background information:
My father is and has been a classic car restorer all his life. Around 20-25 years ago he took on a complete no-money-no-object restoration of a rapidly appreciating British sports car. The owner was from London way and as work got underway he was paying his invoices on the button. This continued for around a year (dad isn’t the quickest) until he had contact from the owner asking to stop work until further notice as he had got in to pretty serious financial trouble. Roll forward 5 years, my father moved premises and wrote to the owner to advise and ask what he would like to do with the car. He had no response so moved the car to his new premises. This happened again 10 years on from this date and again, had no response. My dad has not changed business names in this period or indeed telephone numbers, so the owner could not have tried to get in touch.
Skipping forward to present day, my father still has the car in his workshops but is now looking to retire and doesn’t really know what to do with it. I would guess in it’s current state it could be worth around £ 30,000 with good examples of these are fetching between £ 100-200K currently.
Thing is, my father quite fancies completing it as a retirement project and i’m looking for a bit of advice:
Would my father be entitled to invoice the owner for 20-25 years of storage charges or offer to take the car in payment for this? If this is possible, how would he go about getting the V5 changed in to his name? I assume it is going to involve a solicitor’s letter in the first instance?
Bit of an odd situation I know and if it was only worth £ 500, it would have been a lot easier to sort.
Cheers in advance,
Jim
Sure someone will come along with more precise advice.
When I worked a few years ago in an Antiques centre people did buy certain things promise to collect - and didn't.
IIRC my boss was required to keep them for 7 years. ( maybe his story )
As far as storage goes, he told me IIRC that it depends on the terms of the contract at sale, so you'd need to say collection in two weeks or xyz storage charge will be applied.
If you didn't you couldn't.
When I worked a few years ago in an Antiques centre people did buy certain things promise to collect - and didn't.
IIRC my boss was required to keep them for 7 years. ( maybe his story )
As far as storage goes, he told me IIRC that it depends on the terms of the contract at sale, so you'd need to say collection in two weeks or xyz storage charge will be applied.
If you didn't you couldn't.
From memory, you need to advertise in the newspaper in the vicinity of the owners last know address for them to come forward to either
A, pay all outstanding invoices for work and storage, collect the vehicle.
B, make contact to sign over ownership of said vehicle.
You must publish this advert 3 times, then if the last known owner does not make contact you can apply for the V5 in your name.
This way you can clearly and legally prove that you have made every effort to contact the current owner.
But be careful, there will be speculators who will try to find out what the car is, where it is and try to claim ownership. In this case I normally employ my lawyer to either frighten them away or assertain ownership. With a car of this value it's well worth the lawyers bill!
I have been successful in many cases like this over the years . If you apply for the V5 and the owner is still about, they normally come around very quickly if they think you are about to take ownership of the car!
Good luck
A, pay all outstanding invoices for work and storage, collect the vehicle.
B, make contact to sign over ownership of said vehicle.
You must publish this advert 3 times, then if the last known owner does not make contact you can apply for the V5 in your name.
This way you can clearly and legally prove that you have made every effort to contact the current owner.
But be careful, there will be speculators who will try to find out what the car is, where it is and try to claim ownership. In this case I normally employ my lawyer to either frighten them away or assertain ownership. With a car of this value it's well worth the lawyers bill!
I have been successful in many cases like this over the years . If you apply for the V5 and the owner is still about, they normally come around very quickly if they think you are about to take ownership of the car!
Good luck
What steps have you taken to trace the owner?
It's not hard today. I was executor for my late aunt, and she had left bequests to several old friends, with out of date addresses but full names. A bit of work with Internet directory enquiries soon found them. In some cases, there were one or two possibles, so I wrote, asking them for evidence that they were the perosn who knew my aunt. As yer man was in a business, busienss directories too? Even Googling for the person's name, unless its John Smith, can be helpful.
Get your Sam Spade hat on and get digging! You will, I think, need evidence that you have tried to find the owner before you can assume title. You will need a solicitor, as you will need to go to court to take ownership, and at £30K, the value is too high for a small claims court.
JOhn
It's not hard today. I was executor for my late aunt, and she had left bequests to several old friends, with out of date addresses but full names. A bit of work with Internet directory enquiries soon found them. In some cases, there were one or two possibles, so I wrote, asking them for evidence that they were the perosn who knew my aunt. As yer man was in a business, busienss directories too? Even Googling for the person's name, unless its John Smith, can be helpful.
Get your Sam Spade hat on and get digging! You will, I think, need evidence that you have tried to find the owner before you can assume title. You will need a solicitor, as you will need to go to court to take ownership, and at £30K, the value is too high for a small claims court.
JOhn
Your father would be entitled to invoice the owner for storage.
In the event the owner doesn't respond (which he didn't) I believe there is a fixed period after which your father can claim ownership. Two years seems to ring a bell.
I don't see why you would have to go to court as the value of the car would seem irrelevant to me.
Strangely I own a car which was aquired in similar circumstances. The owner abandoned the car with a restorer in the late 1970's. After a suitable period the restorer claimed title through the correct channels and sold the car on.
Twenty years later the original owner laid claim to the car stating that it had been stolen from him. It went to high court and he lost.
In the event the owner doesn't respond (which he didn't) I believe there is a fixed period after which your father can claim ownership. Two years seems to ring a bell.
I don't see why you would have to go to court as the value of the car would seem irrelevant to me.
Strangely I own a car which was aquired in similar circumstances. The owner abandoned the car with a restorer in the late 1970's. After a suitable period the restorer claimed title through the correct channels and sold the car on.
Twenty years later the original owner laid claim to the car stating that it had been stolen from him. It went to high court and he lost.
mph said:
I don't see why you would have to go to court as the value of the car would seem irrelevant to me. . . . . . . .
.......Twenty years later the original owner laid claim to the car stating that it had been stolen from him. It went to high court and he lost.
I think you have answered your own question there Michael .......Twenty years later the original owner laid claim to the car stating that it had been stolen from him. It went to high court and he lost.
Get legal title now and save any hassles in years to come.
mph said:
Your father would be entitled to invoice the owner for storage.
In the event the owner doesn't respond (which he didn't) I believe there is a fixed period after which your father can claim ownership. Two years seems to ring a bell.
I don't see why you would have to go to court as the value of the car would seem irrelevant to me.
Strangely I own a car which was aquired in similar circumstances. The owner abandoned the car with a restorer in the late 1970's. After a suitable period the restorer claimed title through the correct channels and sold the car on.
Twenty years later the original owner laid claim to the car stating that it had been stolen from him. It went to high court and he lost.
Yup.In the event the owner doesn't respond (which he didn't) I believe there is a fixed period after which your father can claim ownership. Two years seems to ring a bell.
I don't see why you would have to go to court as the value of the car would seem irrelevant to me.
Strangely I own a car which was aquired in similar circumstances. The owner abandoned the car with a restorer in the late 1970's. After a suitable period the restorer claimed title through the correct channels and sold the car on.
Twenty years later the original owner laid claim to the car stating that it had been stolen from him. It went to high court and he lost.
Over twenty years ago, I bought an unfinished 'project' from a garage that had had the car for about 4 years without any word from the 'owner' despite repeated attempts to contact them asking for payment of work done to date & storage fees.
Given the astonishing length of time your Dad has had this without no contact from the owner, it should be straight forward for your Dad to 'claim' the car.
The answer is here:-
Torts (Intereference with Goods) Act 1977
12 Bailee’s power of sale.
(1)This section applies to goods in the possession or under the control of a bailee where—
(a)the bailor is in breach of an obligation to take delivery of the goods or, if the terms of the bailment so provide, to give directions as to their delivery, or
(b)the bailee could impose such an obligation by giving notice to the bailor, but is unable to trace or communicate with the bailor, or
(c)the bailee can reasonably expect to be relieved of any duty to safeguard the goods on giving notice to the bailor, but is unable to trace or communicate with the bailor.
(2)In the cases of Part I of Schedule 1 to this Act a bailee may, for the purposes of subsection (1), impose an obligation on the bailor to take delivery of the goods, or as the case may be to give directions as to their delivery, and in those cases the said Part I sets out the method of notification.
(3)If the bailee—
(a)has in accordance with Part II of Schedule 1 to this Act given notice to the bailor of his intention to sell the goods under this subsection, or
(b)has failed to trace or communicate with the bailor with a view to giving him such a notice, after having taken reasonable steps for the purpose,and is reasonably satisfied that the bailor owns the goods, he shall be entitled, as against the bailor, to sell the goods.
(4)Where subsection (3) applies but the bailor did not in fact own the goods, a sale under this section, or under section 13, shall not give a good title as against the owner, or as against a person claiming under the owner.
(5)A bailee exercising his powers under subsection (3) shall be liable to account to the bailor for the proceeds of sale, less any costs of sale, and—
(a)the account shall be taken on the footing that the bailee should have adopted the best method of sale reasonably available in the circumstances, and
(b)where subsection (3)(a) applies, any sum payable in respect of the goods by the bailor to the bailee which accrued due before the bailee gave notice of intention to sell the goods shall be deductible from the proceeds of sale.
(6)A sale duly made under this section gives a good title to the purchaser as against the bailor.
(7)In this section, section 13, and Schedule 1 to this Act,
(a)“bailor” and “bailee” include their respective successors in title, and
(b)references to what is payable, paid or due to the bailee in respect of the goods include references to what would be payable by the bailor to the bailee as a condition of delivery of the goods at the relevant time.
(8)This section, and Schedule 1 to this Act, have effect subject to the terms of the bailment.
(9)This section shall not apply where the goods were bailed before the commencement of this Act.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/32/conten...
Torts (Intereference with Goods) Act 1977
12 Bailee’s power of sale.
(1)This section applies to goods in the possession or under the control of a bailee where—
(a)the bailor is in breach of an obligation to take delivery of the goods or, if the terms of the bailment so provide, to give directions as to their delivery, or
(b)the bailee could impose such an obligation by giving notice to the bailor, but is unable to trace or communicate with the bailor, or
(c)the bailee can reasonably expect to be relieved of any duty to safeguard the goods on giving notice to the bailor, but is unable to trace or communicate with the bailor.
(2)In the cases of Part I of Schedule 1 to this Act a bailee may, for the purposes of subsection (1), impose an obligation on the bailor to take delivery of the goods, or as the case may be to give directions as to their delivery, and in those cases the said Part I sets out the method of notification.
(3)If the bailee—
(a)has in accordance with Part II of Schedule 1 to this Act given notice to the bailor of his intention to sell the goods under this subsection, or
(b)has failed to trace or communicate with the bailor with a view to giving him such a notice, after having taken reasonable steps for the purpose,and is reasonably satisfied that the bailor owns the goods, he shall be entitled, as against the bailor, to sell the goods.
(4)Where subsection (3) applies but the bailor did not in fact own the goods, a sale under this section, or under section 13, shall not give a good title as against the owner, or as against a person claiming under the owner.
(5)A bailee exercising his powers under subsection (3) shall be liable to account to the bailor for the proceeds of sale, less any costs of sale, and—
(a)the account shall be taken on the footing that the bailee should have adopted the best method of sale reasonably available in the circumstances, and
(b)where subsection (3)(a) applies, any sum payable in respect of the goods by the bailor to the bailee which accrued due before the bailee gave notice of intention to sell the goods shall be deductible from the proceeds of sale.
(6)A sale duly made under this section gives a good title to the purchaser as against the bailor.
(7)In this section, section 13, and Schedule 1 to this Act,
(a)“bailor” and “bailee” include their respective successors in title, and
(b)references to what is payable, paid or due to the bailee in respect of the goods include references to what would be payable by the bailor to the bailee as a condition of delivery of the goods at the relevant time.
(8)This section, and Schedule 1 to this Act, have effect subject to the terms of the bailment.
(9)This section shall not apply where the goods were bailed before the commencement of this Act.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/32/conten...
A farmer I know who stores classic vehicles etc locally has become the owner and sold on a number of cars and caravans left with him when the owners never returned. All he used to do is inform the local police, if no one claims it withing 6 months I think he was allowed to take ownership.. thats just the way I understand he has done it in the past..
I add that, absent an agreement for storage fees, the law would allow a reasonable charge for storage, based on the market rate for storage in the area. In London, you would pay £150 ish a month for storage of a car.
A person selling a car under the 1977 Act could deduct the storage fees, sale expenses, and any sum due for work on the car. The balance, if any, of the sale price, should be held in case the owner ever pops up. Stick it on a deposit and collect the interest.
A person selling a car under the 1977 Act could deduct the storage fees, sale expenses, and any sum due for work on the car. The balance, if any, of the sale price, should be held in case the owner ever pops up. Stick it on a deposit and collect the interest.
LordBretSinclair said:
mph said:
I don't see why you would have to go to court as the value of the car would seem irrelevant to me. . . . . . . .
.......Twenty years later the original owner laid claim to the car stating that it had been stolen from him. It went to high court and he lost.
I think you have answered your own question there Michael .......Twenty years later the original owner laid claim to the car stating that it had been stolen from him. It went to high court and he lost.
Get legal title now and save any hassles in years to come.
Paul
Nontheless, take professinal advice. And you've done thr right thing by not giving too much away. Dont underestiate the lengths faudsters can and will go to in order to make a quick (or even slow) buck.
Play your cards close to your chest, make every effort to conact the owner, dont lose sleep over it
Play your cards close to your chest, make every effort to conact the owner, dont lose sleep over it
Leithen said:
Couldn't you check the electoral roll for the area of the last known address?
192.com would be more helpful from cold - to a degree, as the info on the 'free' bit isn't particularly current (often several years out of date) but as a start it's useful if people haven't moved recently 
.Electoral rolls are usually ordered by street - not by anything useful such as surname - if one walks in to the town hall and asks to see it.
One might be able to get the info 'ordered by surname' from marketing companies for a price - 192.com 'premium' seems as good a place as any to start - or even the local authority for a hefty price
(they sell an edited version of the electoral roll, don't forget, which voters can opt out of having their name on).Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff