World Formula One Qualifying Championship
Discussion
Pretty meaningless, but a decent indication of who has had the biggest nightmare on race day.
I guess the further above your WF1QC your position in the WDC is, the better the race year you've had. I didn't count Lewis's or Vettel's exclusions from qually.
Lewis Hamilton 303/165 (Big. Ouch. five retirements)
Sebastian Vettel 249/255 (two retirements, one finish outside the points)
Mark Webber 198/167 (two retirements, one finishes outside the points)
Jenson Button 167/153 (four retirements, two finishes outside the points)
Fernando Alonso 156/245 (two retirements)
Michael Schumacher 113/43 (ouch)
Romain Grosjean 110/90 (better than I expected)
Pastor Maldonado 104/43 (ouch again)
Kimi Raikkonen 101/198 (one finish outside the points)
Nico Rosberg 100/93 (steady as she goes, as per)
Felipe Massa 63/95 (yes, that it right)
Kamui Kobayashi 53/58
Sergio Perez 39/66
Paul Di Resta 32/46
Nico Hulkenberg 24/49
Daniel Ricciardo 9/10
Bruno Senna 2/30 (sort your qually boy! Four retirements)
ETA: WDC standings, for reference. Couldn't be arsed to work out retirements for all of them.
I guess the further above your WF1QC your position in the WDC is, the better the race year you've had. I didn't count Lewis's or Vettel's exclusions from qually.
Lewis Hamilton 303/165 (Big. Ouch. five retirements)
Sebastian Vettel 249/255 (two retirements, one finish outside the points)
Mark Webber 198/167 (two retirements, one finishes outside the points)
Jenson Button 167/153 (four retirements, two finishes outside the points)
Fernando Alonso 156/245 (two retirements)
Michael Schumacher 113/43 (ouch)
Romain Grosjean 110/90 (better than I expected)
Pastor Maldonado 104/43 (ouch again)
Kimi Raikkonen 101/198 (one finish outside the points)
Nico Rosberg 100/93 (steady as she goes, as per)
Felipe Massa 63/95 (yes, that it right)
Kamui Kobayashi 53/58
Sergio Perez 39/66
Paul Di Resta 32/46
Nico Hulkenberg 24/49
Daniel Ricciardo 9/10
Bruno Senna 2/30 (sort your qually boy! Four retirements)
ETA: WDC standings, for reference. Couldn't be arsed to work out retirements for all of them.
Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 7th November 16:39
Just added some more info. It's interesting, I think, since on the face of it it's a meaningless set of stats, what with all the variables on race day, but over the course of the season the actual points/qually points ratios pretty much reflect the season the respective drivers have had this year right?
Vettel: Fast, but not exactly electric on track and basically boring (only a five point difference between qually and race although we can assume he would have won in Abu Dhabi had it not been for the qually DQ so it would have been marginally more favourable).
Hamilton: Blindingly quick, undone (IMO) by McLaren and getting punted off a couple of times.
Alonso: Just. SO. Mega.
Kimi: As good as he's looked all year.
Bruno's done better than I thought this year and, technically within the rules of this championship, FAR better than his team mate who has been widly inconsistent. Only 18 points less the Spain victory.
Vettel: Fast, but not exactly electric on track and basically boring (only a five point difference between qually and race although we can assume he would have won in Abu Dhabi had it not been for the qually DQ so it would have been marginally more favourable).
Hamilton: Blindingly quick, undone (IMO) by McLaren and getting punted off a couple of times.
Alonso: Just. SO. Mega.
Kimi: As good as he's looked all year.
Bruno's done better than I thought this year and, technically within the rules of this championship, FAR better than his team mate who has been widly inconsistent. Only 18 points less the Spain victory.
Rosberg, Button, Vettel, and Kobayashi seem to have hit the sweet spot, and are probably getting the best out of their car in both qualifying and race trim.
Alonso, Raikkonen, Senna, Perez, and Hulkenberg have underperformed in qualifying, but are getting the maximum (or close to it) at races.
The drivers whose race points are much lower than qualifying points seem to fall into two categories: royally screwed by their team, or driving horribly. Hamilton and Webber would fall firmly into the former category, while the likes of Grosjean and Maldonado would be sitting in the latter. In the case of Grosjean, I'd say he is under-performing in qualifying as well, much like Raikkonen.
Fairly obvious stuff when it comes to the last group, but the first group (Rosberg, Button, Vettel, Kobayashi) is quite revealing.
Alonso, Raikkonen, Senna, Perez, and Hulkenberg have underperformed in qualifying, but are getting the maximum (or close to it) at races.
The drivers whose race points are much lower than qualifying points seem to fall into two categories: royally screwed by their team, or driving horribly. Hamilton and Webber would fall firmly into the former category, while the likes of Grosjean and Maldonado would be sitting in the latter. In the case of Grosjean, I'd say he is under-performing in qualifying as well, much like Raikkonen.
Fairly obvious stuff when it comes to the last group, but the first group (Rosberg, Button, Vettel, Kobayashi) is quite revealing.
Jungles said:
Rosberg, Button, Vettel, and Kobayashi seem to have hit the sweet spot, and are probably getting the best out of their car in both qualifying and race trim.
I wouldn't call it like that, personally. For me, Button has simply not been doing very well this year in race or qually. Rosberg has just been pretty average, while Vettel has just driven the best car on the grid well enough. Kobayashi, yes: solid.Jungles said:
Alonso, Raikkonen, Senna, Perez, and Hulkenberg have underperformed in qualifying, but are getting the maximum (or close to it) at races.
Senna, Perez and Hulkenberg, yes.Alonso and Kimi, I would say that their qually (Alonso in particular) has been about right, but they have 'just' been mega in the races.
Interesting stats. This kind of thing is more meaningful, as you get to see what the potential amount of points on offer after qualifying and the actual points scored at the race, plus the team mate comparison. All very revealing IMO.
Of the front runners, Vettel seems to have maximised his points potential while Hamilton seems to be the biggest loser in the race. Reasons for that will be debated endlessly, but I'm sure Kimi and Alonso benefited from the Mclaren's (and Merc's) woes (self-inflicted or otherwise), outscoring the points potential their qualifying pace would predict. One thing that may be a confounding factor is that some of these cars that don't seem to have the pace in Qualy often perform better in the race. Lotus and the Ferrari are examples of that, so the points haul of FA and KR may well reflect that. I don't subscribe to the notion that the drivers "out-performed" the car. The driver is no magician, to extract something that wasn't there in the first place.
Of the front runners, Vettel seems to have maximised his points potential while Hamilton seems to be the biggest loser in the race. Reasons for that will be debated endlessly, but I'm sure Kimi and Alonso benefited from the Mclaren's (and Merc's) woes (self-inflicted or otherwise), outscoring the points potential their qualifying pace would predict. One thing that may be a confounding factor is that some of these cars that don't seem to have the pace in Qualy often perform better in the race. Lotus and the Ferrari are examples of that, so the points haul of FA and KR may well reflect that. I don't subscribe to the notion that the drivers "out-performed" the car. The driver is no magician, to extract something that wasn't there in the first place.
Dr Z said:
I don't subscribe to the notion that the drivers "out-performed" the car. The driver is no magician, to extract something that wasn't there in the first place.
Depends how you define out-performing I suppose. I see what you mean, but I don't think any other driver could have found as much pace in that Ferrari as Alonso.I mean, check this out for a bit of driving:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b01nry35/?t=1h43m13s
Watch the way he bleeds the corrective lock in to the turn in for the left-hander at 6m 43s left on the Q3 clock. MEGA.
MrKipling43 said:
Dr Z said:
I don't subscribe to the notion that the drivers "out-performed" the car. The driver is no magician, to extract something that wasn't there in the first place.
Depends how you define out-performing I suppose. I see what you mean, but I don't think any other driver could have found as much pace in that Ferrari as Alonso.I mean, check this out for a bit of driving:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b01nry35/?t=1h43m13s
Watch the way he bleeds the corrective lock in to the turn in for the left-hander at 6m 43s left on the Q3 clock. MEGA.
I also found it curious in the press questions after qualy in the past GP, FA was saying something to the effect, "That's the best I could do, I could do a 100 laps on that car and it won't lap any faster". Exactly, that is the best he could do but who's to say somebody like Lewis (uh oh can o' worms) couldn't have made that F2012 go any quicker? It was as if he's defending himself conscious that his car got some upgrades compared to Massa. Compare that with JB looking incredulous as to how his team mate was able to go so much quicker in Q3, no excuses there.
Imagine, during the Abu Dhabi GP, Lewis had a lower spec car than Jenson and had actually gone slower than JB in Q3. Would it be fair to say Jenson got the maximum out of the car or even 'out-performed' the car? As it is now, we can say LH extracted a lot more pace out of the car than JB, as they had equal equipment and chances to setup the car however they like at any given GP weekend (in the absence of contrary reports).
ks. The max is 100% and that is almost impossible to achieve.Dr Z said:
I also found it curious in the press questions after qualy in the past GP, FA was saying something to the effect, "That's the best I could do, I could do a 100 laps on that car and it won't lap any faster". Exactly, that is the best he could do but who's to say somebody like Lewis (uh oh can o' worms) couldn't have made that F2012 go any quicker? It was as if he's defending himself conscious that his car got some upgrades compared to Massa. Compare that with JB looking incredulous as to how his team mate was able to go so much quicker in Q3, no excuses there.
I wouldn't get too excited about it, English isn't his first language and the finer nuances maybe lost on him, so we don't know if he meant 'it' or 'I'.Fwiw i imagine he did do a 100 laps over the whole weekend in practice and qually and his times were consistent throughout. I meant to check but wasn't the time diff between him and Massa in qually only .15 of a second, 'cos if so i reckon the upgrades were worth SFA.
Either way, I reckon we've got no evidence that any other driver would have done better than Alonso in that car this year, but we've got lots to suggest they wouldn't.
Mr_Thyroid said:
Dr Z said:
'out-performed' the car?
What does this actually mean?Impossible? No?
I disagree with this. I think Alonso has had a very reliable car/team strategy and kept of out harms way very well while being very consistent race after race, being there to take advantage of others misfortunes. By saying this, I feel I'm somehow demystifying FA, but that is what he's done, his rivals (McL and RB to a lesser extent) haven't and he's up there fighting for the WDC. I just don't feel that there is any evidence to even consider if he's extracted the maximum performance out of the F2012 as his team mate has been on the wilderness (psychologically) after that 'faster than you' incident and only recently getting his confidence back after his trip to the podium. I do wonder what the performance difference between FA and FM is this season, before and after Massa scored a podium finish a few races back.
I know that Alonso and Hamilton have been team mates and LH had beaten him on points in equal machinery, so who's to say LH couldn't have done a better job with the F2012?
Dr Z said:
I know that Alonso and Hamilton have been team mates and LH had beaten him on points in equal machinery, so who's to say LH couldn't have done a better job with the F2012?
I wonder how many times people will get this wrong? And how long people will continue to get it wrong?heebeegeetee said:
Either way, I reckon we've got no evidence that any other driver would have done better than Alonso in that car this year, but we've got lots to suggest they wouldn't.
What are the "lots" of evidence?Alonso has performed admirably in that Ferrari. But there is nothing to suggest that another driver or even multiple drivers would not have performed equally or better. I think Kimi Raikkonen would have done equally well in similar fashion to Alonso (underperform in qualifying but gain positions during the race), while Lewis Hamilton would have done slightly better (maximising both qualifying and races).
Although I'm a huge fan of Alonso, I'm not misled by his (and Ferrari's) distracting claims to the media about how bad his car is. He has made some mistakes and underperformed occasionally. Not as often as most other drivers, but he's not as perfect as he pretends to be.
MrKipling43 said:
Dr Z said:
I know that Alonso and Hamilton have been team mates and LH had beaten him on points in equal machinery, so who's to say LH couldn't have done a better job with the F2012?
I wonder how many times people will get this wrong? And how long people will continue to get it wrong?Edited by Dr Z on Friday 9th November 11:19
Dr Z said:
Oops. He didn't. Same points. But generally the perception seems to be that LH was better/faster than Fernando during his time at McL?
I think the perception is that LH had an incredible first season and stacked up very well against FA, Alonso was a massive nob that year and Hamilton was mega.It's a shame that 'it' hasn't really happened for Lewis. He's so bloody fast (as is demonstrated by the WF1QC table) but just can't get the luck in the races... either he does something silly (although I don't think that happens nearly as often as some would have you believe) someone wipes him out or McLaren cock up massively.
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