Hamilton v Button@ Mclaren - the final stats - whose best?

[daveknott5]

Not sure if these stats are correct (found them on another website), but they make interesting reading:

Ignoring a race by race analysis (I haven't time for that ) these are the final stats.

Poles: Hamilton 8 - 1 Button
Wins: Hamilton 10 - 8 Button
Fastest Laps: Hamilton 9 - 6 Button
Points: Hamilton 657 - 672 Button

Button certainly ran Hamilton very close. Much closer than many expected - and in terms of overall points gained, actually beat Hamilton. I think it's clear that in terms of raw speed, and in Qualy, Hamilton was king. But in terms of race pace, managing tyres, making strategic choices during a race, Button showed Hamilton a few tricks.

Which driver do you rate as best overall whilst they were in the same car at the same team?

[RealSquirrels]

not-quite up to date (a couple of races missing)

In the races that JB and LH have both finished, Button has finished ahead 13-24

Of the 6 races JB has failed to finish, Button was ahead on track in 1 of those at the time of his retirement.

Of the 12 races Hamilton has not finished, Button was ahead on track in 5 of those at the time of his retirement.

[P-Jay]

Quite close then.

I suspect this thread will qo Fanboy Turbo by the end of page 1, or can we put all that behind us now LH is off to Merc?

[ewenm]

I can't pick the "best". The OP's stats suggest LH has more potential but if he/they can't convert that potential into points then is it important? JB has scored more points over their seasons together than LH despite poor qualifying performances. I want LH's qualifying with JB's racing please!

Personally, I prefer JB as he's local and into his running/cycling/triathlon so I can identify easily with him. That doesn't mean he's "better" than LH though.

[RealSquirrels]

that is one way to look at it ewen but from the OPs stats alone you can't elucidate the reason for hamilton not achieving his 'potential' - there is no way to judge fault/non fault retirements there.

edit: i see you acknowledged this with your "he/they" - missed that first time round.

[heebeegeetee]

daveknott5 said:

Not sure if these stats are correct (found them on another website), but they make interesting reading:

Ignoring a race by race analysis (I haven't time for that ) these are the final stats.

Poles: Hamilton 8 - 1 Button
Wins: Hamilton 10 - 8 Button
Fastest Laps: Hamilton 9 - 6 Button
Points: Hamilton 657 - 672 Button

Button certainly ran Hamilton very close. Much closer than many expected - and in terms of overall points gained, actually beat Hamilton. I think it's clear that in terms of raw speed, and in Qualy, Hamilton was king. But in terms of race pace, managing tyres, making strategic choices during a race, Button showed Hamilton a few tricks.

Which driver do you rate as best overall whilst they were in the same car at the same team?

Very interesting stats, because when all is said and done only the points count.

But I still think Hamilton is best.

[mrmr96]

daveknott5 said:

Not sure if these stats are correct (found them on another website), but they make interesting reading:

Ignoring a race by race analysis (I haven't time for that ) these are the final stats.

Poles: Hamilton 8 - 1 Button
Wins: Hamilton 10 - 8 Button
Fastest Laps: Hamilton 9 - 6 Button
Points: Hamilton 657 - 672 Button

Button certainly ran Hamilton very close. Much closer than many expected - and in terms of overall points gained, actually beat Hamilton. I think it's clear that in terms of raw speed, and in Qualy, Hamilton was king. But in terms of race pace, managing tyres, making strategic choices during a race, Button showed Hamilton a few tricks.

Which driver do you rate as best overall whilst they were in the same car at the same team?

You've not taken account of any mechanical/pit crew failings costing each of them points. I suspect the picture would be different if you did.

[RealSquirrels]

i really don't get this - how do only the points count?

if we are trying to determine who is the best driver, points are a crude measure because there are many factors affecting performance which are not reflected in the points.

in 2001 Alonso, driving for Minardi, was beaten by his team mate (for only 14 races, not the whole year) Tarso Marques.

is Alonso better than Tarso Marques?

[TheHeretic]

Over a lap, Hamilton is quicker. That is quite clear from qualifying stats, etc. However, I think Button has a much better racecraft which shows in his points tally. I've said for a very long time that they are quite equal drivers, they just go about things differently.

Edited by TheHeretic on Monday 26th November 14:33

[offendi]

Another my drivers c*ck is bigger than your drivers c*ck

Woop dee doo

I cant wait until the UK doesnt have a driver in a top team again and then you lot go go back to footie

Sadly my 2nd fave sport , road cycling, is being ruined by the same sh*ite yawn

[TheHeretic]

offendi said:

Another my drivers c*ck is bigger than your drivers c*ck

Woop dee doo

I cant wait until the UK doesnt have a driver in a top team again and then you lot go go back to footie

Sadly my 2nd fave sport , road cycling, is being ruined by the same sh*ite yawn

Don't join the thread then. Ironically, the only thread with obnoxious language is your own.

[VladD]

RealSquirrels said:

is Alonso better than Tarso Marques?

He is now, but was he then?

[Phil-CH]

TheHeretic said:

Over a lap, Hamilton is quicker. That is quite clear from qualifying stats, etc. However, I think Button has a much better racecraft which shows in his points tally. I've said for a very long time that they are quite equal drivers, they just go about things differently.

Edited by TheHeretic on Monday 26th November 14:33

If you count how many team failures cost Hamilton this year, the picture would be very different. What's the point of bringing up numbers without context?

[VladD]

mrmr96 said:

daveknott5 said:

Not sure if these stats are correct (found them on another website), but they make interesting reading:

Ignoring a race by race analysis (I haven't time for that ) these are the final stats.

Poles: Hamilton 8 - 1 Button
Wins: Hamilton 10 - 8 Button
Fastest Laps: Hamilton 9 - 6 Button
Points: Hamilton 657 - 672 Button

Button certainly ran Hamilton very close. Much closer than many expected - and in terms of overall points gained, actually beat Hamilton. I think it's clear that in terms of raw speed, and in Qualy, Hamilton was king. But in terms of race pace, managing tyres, making strategic choices during a race, Button showed Hamilton a few tricks.

Which driver do you rate as best overall whilst they were in the same car at the same team?

You've not taken account of any mechanical/pit crew failings costing each of them points. I suspect the picture would be different if you did.

This is where it gets very grey isn't it. I'd say Lewis was faster over a single lap but that Button is more likely to finish a race. As you say there are driver induced errors and non-driver induced errors. This can be construed as bad luck, and I'd agree with that. It has to go deeper than that though. Button couldn't get his car to work mid-season. Is this down to his short fall as a driver or did the team alter the car in such a way that it no longer worked for him? Is that bad luck too?

[offendi]

TheHeretic said:

offendi said:

Another my drivers c*ck is bigger than your drivers c*ck

Woop dee doo

I cant wait until the UK doesnt have a driver in a top team again and then you lot go go back to footie

Sadly my 2nd fave sport , road cycling, is being ruined by the same sh*ite yawn

Don't join the thread then. Ironically, the only thread with obnoxious language is your own.

its International Swear Like A Navvy Day , or weren't you informed ?

[sanf]

Great stats which show how close the two of them are, and perhaps how badly McLaren have dropped the ball with such a good driver combo. They've managed to compete closely for 3 season and generally got on well (other than the twitter gate hic-cup this year).

They are both single WDC, so as overall packages they do stack up closely. Lewis has the raw speed for definate but his problems seem to stack up when trying to drive quickly and manage tyres. Button seems a more 'complete' package when the car is perfect, but problems arise when the car does not suit him and he very quickly goes back into the mid field also ran group.

I think it's a shame that they are being split as a team, but next year will be good to see how they both get on as 'team leaders' with their respective team mates. Today I think it is more likely that LH will win more championships than JB - but would be more than happy to be proved wrong. On that basis -

Overall I personally rate Lewis higher as he is a better 'racer' driving flat out who still has more WDC potential, however I will always cheer both on, and in yesterdays race after Lewis was taken out having Jenson to come through for the win is a great scenario.

[v8250]

TheHeretic said:

Over a lap, Hamilton is quicker. That is quite clear from qualifying stats, etc. However, I think Button has a much better racecraft which shows in his points tally. I've said for a very long time that they are quite equal drivers, they just go about things differently.

This. I'm probably a little different to most F1 follwers as I have a big enthusiasm for those drivers who are most consistant over a season, irrespective of the difficulties encountered; these include Button, Webber, and Alonso. Each of these perform superbly, keep their heads...yes including the Spaniard...to a point, always knuckle down and get on with the job done, are not always #1 nor on the podium...but keep at it.

As TheHeretic wrote, "it's their racecraft which shows"...it's their individual consistant racecraft that stands out from the all others...very few tantrums, few excessive performance peaks/troughs which shows much maturity, and always fight back throughout the season.

The above is my humble opinion so pls don't come firing-back all guns blazing.

[TheHeretic]

Phil-CH said:

If you count how many team failures cost Hamilton this year, the picture would be very different. What's the point of bringing up numbers without context?

I realise Lewis is the only one of the 2 to actually suffer any amount of bad luck, mechanical issue, or poor strategy, so point taken. Either way, points mean prizes.

[OlberJ]

Quite simple. Hamilton can qualify and stay out in front if he has the right car and no one in his way.

Button can race.

[OlberJ]

Quite simple. Hamilton can qualify and stay out in front if he has the right car and no one in his way.

Button can race.