Boring new cars - is it the fault of PHers?
Discussion
Thinking about some running themes I've seen on PH, and the odd comment (some I've made myself) that has made me think:
"Why buy new cars? Far too expensive."
"I like the GT86/BRZ, I'll buy one in 3/4/5 years when the secondhand prices have dropped."
"Honda have stopped making their decent cars, NSX/S2K/Civic Type R/Integra/etc."
"Leasing is a bad idea, tying yourself in then having nothing at the end."
"Finance is just fooling people into thinking they're paying little for that expensive new car."
"Why won't manufacturers make interesting, fun, sporty cars any more?"
"...dull econoboxes..."
Heavily paraphrased (and probably made up) statements there. Now, the point - PHers, being car and driving enthusiasts by nature, want cars that are fun, thrilling, engaging; PHers, wise to the huge depreciation on new cars and not sucked in by the marketing of "must have the latest thing", often buy secondhand and are willing to wait for someone else to take the hit.
Result? Manufacturers see poor sales of sports models. Manufacturers see very high sales of econoboxes, because the people sucked in by the hype are the ones also not concerned that they're dropping loads of cash monthly on the latest little shopping car to save a tenner a year through better mpg. Manufacturers are businesses looking to make money, and they see that money in the masses - OK, we know they're the biggest market, that's not my point - the point is a viable market is shrinking itself due to trying to wait for the bargains.
If we want manufacturers to still be interested in making cars for enthusiasts, do we need to show them that we're willing to buy them? They can't see those of us on the secondhand market, and rightly don't care. If their sales figures say they're not going to make back on their investment, will they stop investing in future?
Last thought, from the cynical part of me: in 5 years time, I can just imagine the people saying they would buy GT86/BRZ going, "well, it didn't sell very well, it can't have been that good."
"Why buy new cars? Far too expensive."
"I like the GT86/BRZ, I'll buy one in 3/4/5 years when the secondhand prices have dropped."
"Honda have stopped making their decent cars, NSX/S2K/Civic Type R/Integra/etc."
"Leasing is a bad idea, tying yourself in then having nothing at the end."
"Finance is just fooling people into thinking they're paying little for that expensive new car."
"Why won't manufacturers make interesting, fun, sporty cars any more?"
"...dull econoboxes..."
Heavily paraphrased (and probably made up) statements there. Now, the point - PHers, being car and driving enthusiasts by nature, want cars that are fun, thrilling, engaging; PHers, wise to the huge depreciation on new cars and not sucked in by the marketing of "must have the latest thing", often buy secondhand and are willing to wait for someone else to take the hit.
Result? Manufacturers see poor sales of sports models. Manufacturers see very high sales of econoboxes, because the people sucked in by the hype are the ones also not concerned that they're dropping loads of cash monthly on the latest little shopping car to save a tenner a year through better mpg. Manufacturers are businesses looking to make money, and they see that money in the masses - OK, we know they're the biggest market, that's not my point - the point is a viable market is shrinking itself due to trying to wait for the bargains.
If we want manufacturers to still be interested in making cars for enthusiasts, do we need to show them that we're willing to buy them? They can't see those of us on the secondhand market, and rightly don't care. If their sales figures say they're not going to make back on their investment, will they stop investing in future?
Last thought, from the cynical part of me: in 5 years time, I can just imagine the people saying they would buy GT86/BRZ going, "well, it didn't sell very well, it can't have been that good."
As big as pistonheads is, I doubt its members have enough buying power to make a major effect on the purchase of new cars. For one thing not everyone here buys "sporty" cars and those that do don't all wait for a used example - there is some serious money knocking around on here.
If the advice here was "take some finance out and get a new one" to every post about 2-5 year old cars you'd probably see someone post about the "irresponsible advice" !
If the advice here was "take some finance out and get a new one" to every post about 2-5 year old cars you'd probably see someone post about the "irresponsible advice" !
xRIEx said:
Wuzzle said:
Interesting cars appear to be dying out because there isn't that much demand for them.
Exactly my point; and where does the demand come from...?xRIEx said:
"I like the GT86/BRZ, I'll buy one in 3/4/5 years when the secondhand prices have dropped."
I noticed a lot of that in GT86 threads too. You'd think, given how successful many PHers claim to be, there would be a few more in the readers cars section but there is only one afaik.Most "what car" threads have a budget of around £5k, and the ones with a budget anywhere close to £25k is for buying a diesel company car.
Crafty_ said:
As big as pistonheads is, I doubt its members have enough buying power to make a major effect on the purchase of new cars. For one thing not everyone here buys "sporty" cars and those that do don't all wait for a used example - there is some serious money knocking around on here.
If the advice here was "take some finance out and get a new one" to every post about 2-5 year old cars you'd probably see someone post about the "irresponsible advice" !
Yeah, I wasn't really suggesting that it's purely down to this site, more the attitude which I am sure is shared among the wider petrolhead community.If the advice here was "take some finance out and get a new one" to every post about 2-5 year old cars you'd probably see someone post about the "irresponsible advice" !
I don't mean to tar everyone with the same brush, obviously there are petrolheads with the means to buy new, but it's not a luxury for many (myself included) and we get what we can with what we've got. As we all know, there are performance bargains and you would have to question why anyone would buy new, and it was just that that got me thinking: are there too many enthusiasts that are too focused on the good value of secondhand motors?
ewenm said:
xRIEx said:
Wuzzle said:
Interesting cars appear to be dying out because there isn't that much demand for them.
Exactly my point; and where does the demand come from...?Wuzzle said:
xRIEx said:
Exactly my point; and where does the demand come from...?
Sorry, I was trying to say that although the UK is quite a petrolhead country, most of the rest of the world isn't too bothered.So worldwide the market for interesting cars is quite limited.
As big as PH is I don't think it could influence manufactures in all honesty. When they decide whether or not to invest millions in developing and manufacturing a new car, whether or not a fraction of a single forum are going to buy them new or not probably doesn't trouble them much.
In my experience, most people buying "interesting" cars aren't all that interested in cars tbh, more interested in the cachet of having a "fast car" and a decent badge than the appreciation for the engineering like we celebrate here at PH.
In my experience, most people buying "interesting" cars aren't all that interested in cars tbh, more interested in the cachet of having a "fast car" and a decent badge than the appreciation for the engineering like we celebrate here at PH.
Well I think the fun car market will change soon, sports carwise I think we will see a renaissance moment.
Cars due to emissions will have to get lighter to keep performance the same/stronger, while engines will become smaller and most likely turbocharged.
Take the Alfa 4c , 900k, 1.8 turbo. Sounds great if the gearbox is good and the engine is 'fun'.
Abarth will no doubt, put an up rated abarth 1.4 turbo in, in the form of a abarth coupe. And others will fallow this lightweight formula.
I see sporty fun cars getting light, which is good, I dont like trubo as much as a N/A engine, but as long as its smooth i wont mind.
Also, looks are a big deal, make a really good looking, high end looking car, people will buy it who arent PHers.
Plus this is a forum or nerdy blokes and gals (although mainly blokes) who like cars, asking someone would they rather have a cayman or gt86 is a pretty easy question becuase the positives of a new car get outweighed.
But If cars become far more focussed and light I could see more phers buying new. Not many but some
Cars due to emissions will have to get lighter to keep performance the same/stronger, while engines will become smaller and most likely turbocharged.
Take the Alfa 4c , 900k, 1.8 turbo. Sounds great if the gearbox is good and the engine is 'fun'.
Abarth will no doubt, put an up rated abarth 1.4 turbo in, in the form of a abarth coupe. And others will fallow this lightweight formula.
I see sporty fun cars getting light, which is good, I dont like trubo as much as a N/A engine, but as long as its smooth i wont mind.
Also, looks are a big deal, make a really good looking, high end looking car, people will buy it who arent PHers.
Plus this is a forum or nerdy blokes and gals (although mainly blokes) who like cars, asking someone would they rather have a cayman or gt86 is a pretty easy question becuase the positives of a new car get outweighed.
But If cars become far more focussed and light I could see more phers buying new. Not many but some
Edited by Fantuzzi on Monday 26th November 22:15
Mastodon2 said:
As big as PH is I don't think it could influence manufactures in all honesty. When they decide whether or not to invest millions in developing and manufacturing a new car, whether or not a fraction of a single forum are going to buy them new or not probably doesn't trouble them much.
In my experience, most people buying "interesting" cars aren't all that interested in cars tbh, more interested in the cachet of having a "fast car" and a decent badge than the appreciation for the engineering like we celebrate here at PH.
The 'PHer' bit was just to try and drag people into the thread In my experience, most people buying "interesting" cars aren't all that interested in cars tbh, more interested in the cachet of having a "fast car" and a decent badge than the appreciation for the engineering like we celebrate here at PH.
I'm really thinking of enthusiasts as a whole, not just on this site.I can see that, they want to boast how fast their car is to their mates or show off at the office car park - going off on a thought tangent here, maybe that's why we're seeing the move to auto/tiptronic/DSG/flappy paddle only options, and electronic PAS - I often read on here people wishing for a manual option and more steering feel, but people buying a car as a fashion accessory don't care about that - they want the biggest power figure and the widest low profile tyres they can get.
Fantuzzi said:
Well I think the fun car market will change soon, sports carwise I think we will see a renaissance moment.
Cars due to emissions will have to get lighter to keep performance the same/stronger, while engines will become smaller and most likely turbocharged.
Take the Alfa 4c , 900k, 1.8 turbo. Sounds great if the gearbox is good and the engine is 'fun'.
Abarth will no doubt, put an up rated abarth 1.4 turbo in, in the form of a abarth coupe. And others will fallow this lightweight formula.
I see sporty fun cars getting light, which is good, I dont like trubo as much as a N/A engine, but as long as its smooth i wont mind.
I really hope you're right. I'm not sure about the lightness aspect though - the Fisker Karma (OK, not an affordable new car for the majority of people) is nearly two and a half tons; I think we'll see more weight and more marketing smoke and mirrors telling us that these cars are more efficient.Cars due to emissions will have to get lighter to keep performance the same/stronger, while engines will become smaller and most likely turbocharged.
Take the Alfa 4c , 900k, 1.8 turbo. Sounds great if the gearbox is good and the engine is 'fun'.
Abarth will no doubt, put an up rated abarth 1.4 turbo in, in the form of a abarth coupe. And others will fallow this lightweight formula.
I see sporty fun cars getting light, which is good, I dont like trubo as much as a N/A engine, but as long as its smooth i wont mind.
The Alfa would be fantastic, but I'm starting to think it'll never see the light of day.
PH'ers generally...
-Have lots of money love the sound of burning petrol so buy what they want and burn petrol in them.
-Don't have lots of money but love burning petrol and the sound it makes so buy whst they want anyway.
-Love the sound of burning petrol but have other commitments so make a compromise but still burn petrol in the most favourable acoustic fashion available.
-Love burning petrol and 'old skool' ethics so will burn petrol for s
ts and giggles no matter what the vehicle burning the petrol looks like.
(I've probably missed a few categories so feel free to add as necessary!)
-Have lots of money love the sound of burning petrol so buy what they want and burn petrol in them.
-Don't have lots of money but love burning petrol and the sound it makes so buy whst they want anyway.
-Love the sound of burning petrol but have other commitments so make a compromise but still burn petrol in the most favourable acoustic fashion available.
-Love burning petrol and 'old skool' ethics so will burn petrol for s
ts and giggles no matter what the vehicle burning the petrol looks like.(I've probably missed a few categories so feel free to add as necessary!)
xRIEx said:
Fantuzzi said:
Well I think the fun car market will change soon, sports carwise I think we will see a renaissance moment.
Cars due to emissions will have to get lighter to keep performance the same/stronger, while engines will become smaller and most likely turbocharged.
Take the Alfa 4c , 900k, 1.8 turbo. Sounds great if the gearbox is good and the engine is 'fun'.
Abarth will no doubt, put an up rated abarth 1.4 turbo in, in the form of a abarth coupe. And others will fallow this lightweight formula.
I see sporty fun cars getting light, which is good, I dont like trubo as much as a N/A engine, but as long as its smooth i wont mind.
I really hope you're right. I'm not sure about the lightness aspect though - the Fisker Karma (OK, not an affordable new car for the majority of people) is nearly two and a half tons; I think we'll see more weight and more marketing smoke and mirrors telling us that these cars are more efficient.Cars due to emissions will have to get lighter to keep performance the same/stronger, while engines will become smaller and most likely turbocharged.
Take the Alfa 4c , 900k, 1.8 turbo. Sounds great if the gearbox is good and the engine is 'fun'.
Abarth will no doubt, put an up rated abarth 1.4 turbo in, in the form of a abarth coupe. And others will fallow this lightweight formula.
I see sporty fun cars getting light, which is good, I dont like trubo as much as a N/A engine, but as long as its smooth i wont mind.
The Alfa would be fantastic, but I'm starting to think it'll never see the light of day.
Maserati told evo mag, that they will do a gt3 rival, lightweight car like the 4c with a CF tub, v8 in the middle 1100kg.
Sounds great when you consider the P/weight and that the rivals, will be 300kg heavier.
I see the future of PHy cars looking rather, if people are smart we could have some of the best drivers cars ever, think about the noble power switch, can alter the power from 450 to 650, use that method on say the 4c, you could get the car almost in two modes, super eco (120BHP say), so the car can get extremely low emissions, keeps polar bears happy, then the tits mental 300 bhp for when the roads get good. Plus varible suspension means if your a slick haired show off you can just waft around, but if youre the sort of chap who wishes he lived on the Col de turini you can harden it up.
Or of course we can all dream of all the next sports cars being elise type cars, but I think the market needs to realise the clubsport pack appeal. Stripping a car out/lack of boot/road noise/rawness to a Pher dosnt matter so much unless its a daily car. And even then if youre using a low slung sports car for the kids chello lessons youre proberly a bit silly and should get a cheap shed.
Personally If I owned a fairly mainstream company I would try and make a really stunnig car, spend ages on the design, really craft the interior, becuase if I was making say a cayman rival Id know that most buyer would want a pretty car inside and out, and thats about it, looking flash feeling special.
Of course making it handle like a 904 porsche would be over arching theme!
I reckon the GT86 problem is, one, badge, if it was something more exotic, people who just want a flash car would go for it.
And two, the performance should have been a 'bit' more, in truth its no quicker than the outgoing MR2, it should have been just a but slower than the megane, (60 mid 6s, top end more in the 150 region) I know the car was meant to be a back to basics, but I think the basic part people wanted was steering feel, intermacy, and purity, rather than a car that was easy to slide a low speeds (which accord to most is a not possible).
So it sort of sits alone in the market, its not a roadster for people who like that sort of thing, nor is it a hot hatch rival of the bigger boys -too slow, and of course its too slow/cheap for properly quick cars like the elise and such.
From the above it sounds like I have just bought me a dinosaur with its 2 tonne and 507bhp NA V10 engine ...!
Seriously, all of my 'performance' cars have been 3 years old or older - if not for me & folk like me some of the more wealthy individuals would not buy their new shiny cars and of course some will always buy new no matter what. I did buy new once and never again unless I have cash to burn but that is relative as my used cars still depreciate, just not as fast a when new! We are ultimately supporting the development of nice performance cars as the bloke I bought from gets his new M5 assisted by what I gave him for the one I have.
I do think however that there are other pressures manifested in EU legislation and general tree hugging attitudes that will ensure that things do change over time .... not necessarily bad for everything but change none the less.
Seriously, all of my 'performance' cars have been 3 years old or older - if not for me & folk like me some of the more wealthy individuals would not buy their new shiny cars and of course some will always buy new no matter what. I did buy new once and never again unless I have cash to burn but that is relative as my used cars still depreciate, just not as fast a when new! We are ultimately supporting the development of nice performance cars as the bloke I bought from gets his new M5 assisted by what I gave him for the one I have.
I do think however that there are other pressures manifested in EU legislation and general tree hugging attitudes that will ensure that things do change over time .... not necessarily bad for everything but change none the less.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff