A replica of a relica of a replica
Discussion
Have a look here:-
http://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/384499747.htm?ca=...
It's in French, but never mind, the photos speak for themselves - er, don't they? Well, not really.
this is one of the rather poorly built Proteus bodies when made when Proteus and Lynx came under the same ownership. The shell was made in Poland and they were sold off to the trade or individuals to make up into a car. Quite a few were made but then Proteus settled for the car they make now, the Maza rear-suspensioned, 4.2 litre Jaguar injected cataysed C-type, which conforms under ISA rules and regs.
Here we have a man advertising a "restored" Lynx when in effect it is a new Proteus shell (with XJ6 suspension) built up into a lookalike and now suddenly it's a Lynx at twice the price. Except here is my photo taken at the time:-
Lynx on the wall behind, but it really ain't!
http://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/384499747.htm?ca=...
It's in French, but never mind, the photos speak for themselves - er, don't they? Well, not really.
this is one of the rather poorly built Proteus bodies when made when Proteus and Lynx came under the same ownership. The shell was made in Poland and they were sold off to the trade or individuals to make up into a car. Quite a few were made but then Proteus settled for the car they make now, the Maza rear-suspensioned, 4.2 litre Jaguar injected cataysed C-type, which conforms under ISA rules and regs.
Here we have a man advertising a "restored" Lynx when in effect it is a new Proteus shell (with XJ6 suspension) built up into a lookalike and now suddenly it's a Lynx at twice the price. Except here is my photo taken at the time:-
Lynx on the wall behind, but it really ain't!
Edited by lowdrag on Friday 30th November 12:55
king TX Tripper, it's not the real thing, is it?I agree. Surely the world's gone mad if we start questioning the "provenance" of a replica! TBH I'd rather have a brand new one than something that was made 20 - 30 years ago. That's not patina, that's just an old fake. If anyone's stupid enough to think that's worth lying about, then God help them. All we need to know is that an alloy D Type replica is more valuable than a GRP one. Why should a Lynx be worth more than an alloy copy made in someone's shed?
Tony, in the gentlest way, what's going to happen when the knowledgeable men like yourself are no longer with us? Apologies for the way I've expressed this, but, it is most important. We see, hear, read of too many 'duffers' being passed off for something they're not. Do you have a chronological or chassis/reg# type database of such info that could be put into the public domain in some way?
This thread is quite timely as spent this afternoon at the Heritage Centre Gaydon with a friend from Jaguar across the way. Took some pics that I'll post t'row. There had a good rummage around the Moss Aston that's been on loan to Gaydon for a while...she was last taxed in 1993!
This thread is quite timely as spent this afternoon at the Heritage Centre Gaydon with a friend from Jaguar across the way. Took some pics that I'll post t'row. There had a good rummage around the Moss Aston that's been on loan to Gaydon for a while...she was last taxed in 1993!
V8250, at least you see where I am coming from. The other two would certainly have howled loud and clear if, being innocents, they had bought that car as a Lynx and then found out they'd lost half their money because it is a Proteus. They just don't, and worse don't even want to understand that the word replica can also connotate serious money. It is sheer snobbery of the worst kind and may even be born of jealousy. FIA papered copies of D-types cost £350,000 to build and an XKSS north of £400,000. I can't afford a real car nor even a true copy, (though I did build the C-type) so I have what I can afford. It gives me pleasure, and has developed into a serious interest in replicas and their owners who, in the main are living the dream by owning or building a copy, some better than others and some lower down the price range. For several years I wrote on the subject for the JDC, and found a whole new world of knowledgeable people who could recreate cars and knew which of the "real" ones weren't real at all, yet supposedly are worth millions. This isn't confined to Jaguars but of course many other makes from Cobras to Ferraris (three replica Ferraris raced at the Revival in 2009, invited like my C-type because the real cars no longer exist). Remember Tom Keating, the chap who fooled the art world with his copies of serious works of art and then became so famous he had a Channel 4 programme showing how to paint forgeries? His clients weren't laughing when the fraud was discovered either.
To answer your question, there is no way of stopping this fraud because the minute I create a list of cars and owners one gets sold on and then, as here, someone builds a new car. It is down to my research and also my interest in photography which leads to such records being kept for posterity. There are quite a few of these Polish shells out there, but up till now no one has tried to pass it off as a Lynx and never at such a preposterous price. There is a way of identifying the frauds, for example in this case it has XJ6 suspension not torsion bar, but you really have to know the cars to spot the differences.
ETA The Moss Aston. Is this the one that was given to his son when someone tried to cosy up to Stirling all those 40+ years ago? I knew his son when he was a chef in Leicester, and he was 3 yrs old when the gift was made! I guess not, but one he raced in the time. Incidentally, the son still hadn't learned to drive at 30!
To answer your question, there is no way of stopping this fraud because the minute I create a list of cars and owners one gets sold on and then, as here, someone builds a new car. It is down to my research and also my interest in photography which leads to such records being kept for posterity. There are quite a few of these Polish shells out there, but up till now no one has tried to pass it off as a Lynx and never at such a preposterous price. There is a way of identifying the frauds, for example in this case it has XJ6 suspension not torsion bar, but you really have to know the cars to spot the differences.
ETA The Moss Aston. Is this the one that was given to his son when someone tried to cosy up to Stirling all those 40+ years ago? I knew his son when he was a chef in Leicester, and he was 3 yrs old when the gift was made! I guess not, but one he raced in the time. Incidentally, the son still hadn't learned to drive at 30!
Edited by lowdrag on Saturday 1st December 14:57
LotusOmega375D said:
I agree. Surely the world's gone mad if we start questioning the "provenance" of a replica! TBH I'd rather have a brand new one than something that was made 20 - 30 years ago. That's not patina, that's just an old fake. If anyone's stupid enough to think that's worth lying about, then God help them. All we need to know is that an alloy D Type replica is more valuable than a GRP one. Why should a Lynx be worth more than an alloy copy made in someone's shed?
Hang on a sec .... I need to climb on my soapbox 
LotusOmega - I couldn't agree more - these are replicas for goodness sake! This sort of snobbery - "My Lynx is better than your Tempero", "My Tempero is better than your Proteus", "My Proteus is better than your Realm" really winds me up. Have you actually looked at the quality of engineering of a real unmolested D-Type? Some current replicas would put one to shame but does that make a real D-Type worth any less?
The only people who may be upset at someone passing off a perfectly-acceptable replica as a Lynx would be someone who has paid well over the odds for one and is worried about the effect this may have on their "investment". OK, there are some pretty ropy replicas out there but there is little to choose between the many decent replicas about and ones churned out by Lynx. A good friend of mine has an early Lynx D-Type and, believe me, the engineering really isn't that special (especially under the skin) as he will be the first to admit.
It has been said on this thread that "FIA papered copies of D-types cost £350,000 to build and an XKSS north of £400,000" - complete twaddle! It simply doesn't cost this much to build such a car and I can speak from a position of current knowledge. The only people who may claim this are certain "Jaguar Specialists" when speaking with their gullible customers - their actual build costs are WELL below these figures.
I'm building a replica myself and I'll tell you something - it isn't the thought of how much the finished car is worth that concerns me (I certainly won't get back what I have put into it so far!) but the anticipation/thrill of finally seeing the car on the road is what completely consumes me and keeps me awake at night. I'm pretty sure the majority of people with replicas do it for this reason and not for "what it's worth" when complete.
XJ13 said:
I'm building a replica myself and I'll tell you something - it isn't the thought of how much the finished car is worth that concerns me (I certainly won't get back what I have put into it so far!) but the anticipation/thrill of finally seeing the car on the road is what completely consumes me and keeps me awake at night. I'm pretty sure the majority of people with replicas do it for this reason and not for "what it's worth" when complete.
A true PH. Good luck with build.XJ13 said:
... I couldn't agree more - these are replicas for goodness sake! This sort of snobbery - "My Lynx is better than your Tempero", "My Tempero is better than your Proteus", "My Proteus is better than your Realm" really winds me up.
Must confess this has always made me laugh. I wouldn't want a replica, my view is that if I can't afford a DB4GT Zagato I can't have one but hats off to the bloke who can. A replica is just that, something nice to look at and good fun but for heaven's sake let's not start oneupmanship in the C-type/D-Type/XKSS arena. There's almost as many of them as fake Cobras these days, they are good looking fun cars but at the end of the day they ain't what they pretend to be, just enjoy them for what they are surely?Personally I don't think this is about one-upmanship.
If an item has a higher perceived value than a similar item then passing off the lesser item as the greater is wrong - this applies regardless of whether the item in question is a "D-type", "da Vinci" or a tin of Heinz/Asda baked beans. It is dishonest... I believe that is what Low Drag is getting at.
As for which is better... replica or fake etc. a different argument entirely and it should be realised that if you build a replica armed with the knowledge acquired over the decades since the original existed, and also with the benefit of modern materials etc. then you should be able to build it better - however if it's loads better it's not really that good a replica is it?
If an item has a higher perceived value than a similar item then passing off the lesser item as the greater is wrong - this applies regardless of whether the item in question is a "D-type", "da Vinci" or a tin of Heinz/Asda baked beans. It is dishonest... I believe that is what Low Drag is getting at.
As for which is better... replica or fake etc. a different argument entirely and it should be realised that if you build a replica armed with the knowledge acquired over the decades since the original existed, and also with the benefit of modern materials etc. then you should be able to build it better - however if it's loads better it's not really that good a replica is it?
Thanks for that Spoodler. I hesitated to reply myself, but I hate fraud like you can't imagine. I'm sure that XJ13 will no more say his car is "genuine" than I did with my C-type. We all know that such reputable cars are either known or in my case no longer existent. But the real XJ13 is reputed - when I last asked - to be valued at £7 million, and for good or for bad there are some replicas which have a higher value than others - in this case Lynx. I mean, a LR fibreglass replica D-type runs as well as a Lynx, but the perceived market value isn't the same, which is what I am getting at. XJ13 himself is an engineer and probably has access to machinery and people we ordinary people don't, but decry as he might I know that the prices I have quoted are those paid by people I know to have had built for them FIA-papered replicas. Incidentally, only today I received the details of this car for sale in Germany.
http://www.car-copy.com/carcopy/show2.php?CSI=lotc...
A load of lies therein, like the build date, the original cost, and the rear of the car defies belief, but just look at the asking price, and today the name Lynx, for good or bad, attracts this kind of price. I don't set the prices, the market does, and since one Lynx XKSS was sold last year for £235,000 it sets the standard. There are currently three XKC 003 cars in the world - one that "emerged" last year and turned out to be a Proteus, one that has been hand built to the n'th degree by Jerry Booen and David Duffy (and which incidentally has proved that my C-type wasn't at all quite right) and one being built in Germany.
It so happens that I love replicas, because they fascinate me. I know people who must have the latest golf clubs, change their car every year for the latest model, and whatever our likes and dislikes, it would be a poor world if we all liked the same. but don't shoot me for decrying a fraudulent sale please.
ETA: I'm glad it's gone John. I reported it to Le Bon Coin and that may have had an effect.
http://www.car-copy.com/carcopy/show2.php?CSI=lotc...
A load of lies therein, like the build date, the original cost, and the rear of the car defies belief, but just look at the asking price, and today the name Lynx, for good or bad, attracts this kind of price. I don't set the prices, the market does, and since one Lynx XKSS was sold last year for £235,000 it sets the standard. There are currently three XKC 003 cars in the world - one that "emerged" last year and turned out to be a Proteus, one that has been hand built to the n'th degree by Jerry Booen and David Duffy (and which incidentally has proved that my C-type wasn't at all quite right) and one being built in Germany.
It so happens that I love replicas, because they fascinate me. I know people who must have the latest golf clubs, change their car every year for the latest model, and whatever our likes and dislikes, it would be a poor world if we all liked the same. but don't shoot me for decrying a fraudulent sale please.
ETA: I'm glad it's gone John. I reported it to Le Bon Coin and that may have had an effect.
Edited by lowdrag on Sunday 2nd December 20:02
Whether you have the where with all to buy an original, have the capability to create a micron-accurate toolroom copy or, like the rest of us mere mortals, have to resort to assembling a bunch of components made by someone with greater knowledge and access to the right tooling is irrelevant to the discussion. The point being made by the OP was that claims that these parts were manufactured by a different company is contrary to Article 2 of the Fraud Act 2006, in that is is a deliberate false respresentation intended to make a gain and / or cause loss to another.
As somone hoping soon to dip a toe into the replica market, I am grateful for any and all intelligence which helps me to avoid drowning in these shark-infested waters. Cheers Lowdrag
As somone hoping soon to dip a toe into the replica market, I am grateful for any and all intelligence which helps me to avoid drowning in these shark-infested waters. Cheers Lowdrag
greenrat said:
Whether you have the where with all to buy an original, have the capability to create a micron-accurate toolroom copy or, like the rest of us mere mortals, have to resort to assembling a bunch of components made by someone with greater knowledge and access to the right tooling is irrelevant to the discussion. The point being made by the OP was that claims that these parts were manufactured by a different company is contrary to Article 2 of the Fraud Act 2006, in that is is a deliberate false respresentation intended to make a gain and / or cause loss to another.
As somone hoping soon to dip a toe into the replica market, I am grateful for any and all intelligence which helps me to avoid drowning in these shark-infested waters. Cheers Lowdrag
Same here - the historic car world seems to be rife with replica/recreation/continuation scandals, and any info that helps to stop someone making an (possibly very) expensive mistake is gratefully received. As somone hoping soon to dip a toe into the replica market, I am grateful for any and all intelligence which helps me to avoid drowning in these shark-infested waters. Cheers Lowdrag
O/T is NDU 970 original?
Jukebag said:
My dad was very fortunate to know a chap named Clive Unsworth who owned a real D-Type. This was one of the Ecurie Eccose short-nosed versions (MWS 303) without the tailfin. Contrary to the image one might have of a person owning such a rare car, he was quite a reclusive chap and quiet. To cut a long story short, my dad and him used to go for rides in it during the 60s and he always remembered how great it was, the speed and acceleration of it on the road how it pushed him back in the seat. People's heads used to turn at the sight of seeing such an unusual thing. Back at the time when he bought it (late 50s/early 60s)I believe he paid £1800 for it. When Clive died in the late 90s, his family sold the D-Type, along with his collection of vintage cars. The D-Type was sold off for around £400,000 I believe, which went for far less than it should have. It was rumoured to have been in a fairly bad state at the time. Just wish my dad still had the cinefilm he took of it in the 60s riding in the passenger seat; unfortunately he left it in a shed and it got burned down.
Apologies to you others, because I dont want to spoil this thread, but I must ask this. Jukebag, are you by any chance son to a bloke called Alan?RichB said:
thinnk you'll find Lowdrag has beaten you to it with the Greenrat copy. 
The handle is more aspirational than inspirational. My effort will only ever be but a pale shadow of both the original and Lowdrag's wee beastie. I doubt I'll be able to afford to get the wheels chromed!Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff