Is it a kitcar
Discussion
Watched a re-run of Mark Evans building an MGB and jolly good it is too. If you've not seen any of his ".... is born" series, then he takes a car/bike/plkane/helicopter and builds it in a few progs. All good fun intersepersed with interviews with other like minded folk.
Anyway, in this prog they interviewed a chap who'd totally restored a V8 MGB. New heritage bodyshell, new Chevy V8 engine and box, new interiopr, hood, bumpers and new just about everything> he was really proud of his brand new tax exempt 1967 MGB V8
So why isn't that a kitcar and subject to IVA test like the rest of us? As I see it all he's used off the original is the VIN number. Does that seem right to you?
Anyway, in this prog they interviewed a chap who'd totally restored a V8 MGB. New heritage bodyshell, new Chevy V8 engine and box, new interiopr, hood, bumpers and new just about everything> he was really proud of his brand new tax exempt 1967 MGB V8
So why isn't that a kitcar and subject to IVA test like the rest of us? As I see it all he's used off the original is the VIN number. Does that seem right to you?
This is a vexed question. I think it is a loophole exploited regularly.
Since the chassis in its entirety has been changed and the drivetrain and the engine with a massive increase in power common sense suggests it should require testing. Technically I do not think it does. Consequence of poor legislation.
With this many changes it would seem that safety would require a specific inspection. It would seem in these cases,however, it is not.
Since the chassis in its entirety has been changed and the drivetrain and the engine with a massive increase in power common sense suggests it should require testing. Technically I do not think it does. Consequence of poor legislation.
With this many changes it would seem that safety would require a specific inspection. It would seem in these cases,however, it is not.
IIRC there is a 12 point rule. I forget the allocations but you get points for the original engine/chassis/steering/axles. Replacement parts as per manufacturer spec are ok, so if you buy a recon steering rack thats fine.
An engine change alone isn't enough to trigger a problem.
Change the engine, rear axle and modify the chassis and you may well be in trouble..
Same thing happens with E Types, you can get new shells etc for those too.
An engine change alone isn't enough to trigger a problem.
Change the engine, rear axle and modify the chassis and you may well be in trouble..
Same thing happens with E Types, you can get new shells etc for those too.
Crafty_ said:
IIRC there is a 12 point rule. I forget the allocations but you get points for the original engine/chassis/steering/axles. Replacement parts as per manufacturer spec are ok, so if you buy a recon steering rack thats fine.
An engine change alone isn't enough to trigger a problem.
Change the engine, rear axle and modify the chassis and you may well be in trouble..
Same thing happens with E Types, you can get new shells etc for those too.
You are absolutely right. But I doubt that any of these changes in Etypes or An engine change alone isn't enough to trigger a problem.
Change the engine, rear axle and modify the chassis and you may well be in trouble..
Same thing happens with E Types, you can get new shells etc for those too.
MGB's or Triumphs or any other classic car actually involved IVA or even an inspection.
It is a loophole: the car contains virtually no original major parts and a completely new chassis. It is de facto not the original car.
This is definitely a grey area, isn't it. As Paul said, if the items were replaced individually, over a long period of time then I don't think there would be an issue. The car would be a bit of a "Trigger's Broom" but that sholdn't be a problem.
Replacing the bodyshell with one of an identical design shouldn't be an issue either, IMHO.
The guidance on IVA states that IVA is required if the chassis is modified or replaced with one of different design. In effect with a new Heritage shell, the design is unmodified so I believe it should be fine.
The change of interior, hood, bumpers etc wouldn't really impact on the chassis, so I reckon that's all fine too.
The problem with the example quoted comes with the change of drivetrain. I would expect that some modification would be required to accommodate a V8 and matching gearbox - I could be wrong though, if it could be done just by changing engine mounts, or possibly by adding or removing bolted on brackets, you might (and I stress, might) get away with it.
The other thing to bear in mind though is that these shows are a few years old now - maybe this one got through before the DVLA was so stringent about enforing this.
I was always a bit surprised that, on the original "A Car is Born" series when he built the Sumo, he got away with the manufacturers declaration of top speed as 120 mph. This is in spite of him ditching the 2.0l Pinto from the Sierra in favour of a shiny new V8!! (Was it a Chevy?)
I'd have been disappointed if that would only do 120!!!
Replacing the bodyshell with one of an identical design shouldn't be an issue either, IMHO.
The guidance on IVA states that IVA is required if the chassis is modified or replaced with one of different design. In effect with a new Heritage shell, the design is unmodified so I believe it should be fine.
The change of interior, hood, bumpers etc wouldn't really impact on the chassis, so I reckon that's all fine too.
The problem with the example quoted comes with the change of drivetrain. I would expect that some modification would be required to accommodate a V8 and matching gearbox - I could be wrong though, if it could be done just by changing engine mounts, or possibly by adding or removing bolted on brackets, you might (and I stress, might) get away with it.
The other thing to bear in mind though is that these shows are a few years old now - maybe this one got through before the DVLA was so stringent about enforing this.
I was always a bit surprised that, on the original "A Car is Born" series when he built the Sumo, he got away with the manufacturers declaration of top speed as 120 mph. This is in spite of him ditching the 2.0l Pinto from the Sierra in favour of a shiny new V8!! (Was it a Chevy?)
I'd have been disappointed if that would only do 120!!!
Frankthered said:
I was always a bit surprised that, on the original "A Car is Born" series when he built the Sumo, he got away with the manufacturers declaration of top speed as 120 mph. This is in spite of him ditching the 2.0l Pinto from the Sierra in favour of a shiny new V8!! (Was it a Chevy?)
Tut, tut, tut!If the gearbox and differential have the same ratios as the original the speed at 5000 rpm in top will be the same whatever the size of engine. It's just how long it takes to get to the speed that will be different.
FlossyThePig said:
Frankthered said:
I was always a bit surprised that, on the original "A Car is Born" series when he built the Sumo, he got away with the manufacturers declaration of top speed as 120 mph. This is in spite of him ditching the 2.0l Pinto from the Sierra in favour of a shiny new V8!! (Was it a Chevy?)
Tut, tut, tut!If the gearbox and differential have the same ratios as the original the speed at 5000 rpm in top will be the same whatever the size of engine. It's just how long it takes to get to the speed that will be different.
FlossyThePig said:
Tut, tut, tut!
If the gearbox and differential have the same ratios as the original the speed at 5000 rpm in top will be the same whatever the size of engine. It's just how long it takes to get to the speed that will be different.
Even assuming the same gear ratios were used (which is most unlikely), just because a car is geared for a certain theoretical speed in top, doesn't mean it can actually reach it.If the gearbox and differential have the same ratios as the original the speed at 5000 rpm in top will be the same whatever the size of engine. It's just how long it takes to get to the speed that will be different.
The declared top speed for IVA is only to check that the tyres have the correct speed rating
Nothing else
Declared power at whatever revs is only used to calculate the revs at which the sound check is done
Nothing else
Rebody of original car is usualy ok as the original manufacturer got type approval
Totally replacing the running gear could be considered a breach however the points system means you could easily replace the engine and still retain the reg, steering, brakes, axels, suspention all add up, gearboxes don't have numbers so the only truly identifiable part is the engine
Nothing else
Declared power at whatever revs is only used to calculate the revs at which the sound check is done
Nothing else
Rebody of original car is usualy ok as the original manufacturer got type approval
Totally replacing the running gear could be considered a breach however the points system means you could easily replace the engine and still retain the reg, steering, brakes, axels, suspention all add up, gearboxes don't have numbers so the only truly identifiable part is the engine
Steffan said:
You are absolutely right. But I doubt that any of these changes in Etypes or
MGB's or Triumphs or any other classic car actually involved IVA or even an inspection.
It is a loophole: the car contains virtually no original major parts and a completely new chassis. It is de facto not the original car.
Exactly, and it's the same for Mk1 and Mk2 Escorts with group 4 bodyshell modifications, and the like.MGB's or Triumphs or any other classic car actually involved IVA or even an inspection.
It is a loophole: the car contains virtually no original major parts and a completely new chassis. It is de facto not the original car.
rdodger said:
Aren't the rules that if the chassis/ monocoque is replaced with an identical one everything is fine?
Obviously as cars get reshelled sometimes as part of accident repairs. You'd hardly want your shopping trolley to have to be IVA'd after that would you? As for the engineers report he'd almost certainly need one for insurance or as part of a valuation anyway.
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