Outriggers versus cam shaft
Discussion
Whilst driving the TVR to work this morning, I had what I think was a rare moment of clarity that I thought I'd share.
Each winter, part of me gets anxious about what to do with the Chimaera: keep driving it, or take it off the road? I've always kept it on the road and driven it occasionally, but each time I drive it I feel guilty about exposing it to the salt.
But this morning I realised that the two options actually cost about the same in the long run:
Option 1: SORN it in November and spend the winter wishing I could drive it, but knowing that at least I'm not exposing it to salt. However, I know that not driving it will ruin the cam shaft, and in five years' time I might be shelling out £1800 for a new one due to under-use.
Option 2: Keep it taxed throughout the winter, and drive it whenever the roads are not too wet and horrible - preferably at least once every 10 days. The cam shaft will last far longer, but I know that in five years' time I might be shelling out £1800 for new outriggers due to salt exposure.
Both options cost about £1800, but option 2 involves more fun. I think I've decided to continue driving it whenever I can over the winter, and stop worrying about it!
Each winter, part of me gets anxious about what to do with the Chimaera: keep driving it, or take it off the road? I've always kept it on the road and driven it occasionally, but each time I drive it I feel guilty about exposing it to the salt.
But this morning I realised that the two options actually cost about the same in the long run:
Option 1: SORN it in November and spend the winter wishing I could drive it, but knowing that at least I'm not exposing it to salt. However, I know that not driving it will ruin the cam shaft, and in five years' time I might be shelling out £1800 for a new one due to under-use.
Option 2: Keep it taxed throughout the winter, and drive it whenever the roads are not too wet and horrible - preferably at least once every 10 days. The cam shaft will last far longer, but I know that in five years' time I might be shelling out £1800 for new outriggers due to salt exposure.
Both options cost about £1800, but option 2 involves more fun. I think I've decided to continue driving it whenever I can over the winter, and stop worrying about it!
If you dont use the car over Winter it isnt going to destroy your camshaft. Complete myth in my opinion. If it isnt being used how can it wear. Everything is covered in oil in there and it will be fine. The secret is not to keep firing it up just for a few minutes thinking you are doing it good keeping the oil circulating. This will potentially harm it. Just leave it alone until next Spring when you can give it a good run and your cam will be non the worse for it.
carsy said:
If you dont use the car over Winter it isnt going to destroy your camshaft. Complete myth in my opinion. If it isnt being used how can it wear. Everything is covered in oil in there and it will be fine. The secret is not to keep firing it up just for a few minutes thinking you are doing it good keeping the oil circulating. This will potentially harm it. Just leave it alone until next Spring when you can give it a good run and your cam will be non the worse for it.
+1You're both wrong I'm afraid.
Oil doesn't stay on the cam shaft forever. After a few weeks there'll be nothing left on some parts. That's when you get small pin-pricks of corrosion setting in, which then acts like sandpaper for a few seconds when you next start the engine.
A frequently-used cam shaft wears a lot less quickly than an infrequently-used one. It's well documented for all sorts of different types of engine.
Edited to add: Actually I do agree with part of what you say. Firing it up for a few minutes will probably do more harm than good; you really need to get everything properly up to temperature otherwise all you're doing is adding more water and acids to the oil. But leaving it for the winter months without taking special steps (e.g. preservative oil) is not good either.
Oil doesn't stay on the cam shaft forever. After a few weeks there'll be nothing left on some parts. That's when you get small pin-pricks of corrosion setting in, which then acts like sandpaper for a few seconds when you next start the engine.
A frequently-used cam shaft wears a lot less quickly than an infrequently-used one. It's well documented for all sorts of different types of engine.
Edited to add: Actually I do agree with part of what you say. Firing it up for a few minutes will probably do more harm than good; you really need to get everything properly up to temperature otherwise all you're doing is adding more water and acids to the oil. But leaving it for the winter months without taking special steps (e.g. preservative oil) is not good either.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Tuesday 11th December 11:32
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Oil doesn't stay on the cam shaft forever. After a few weeks there'll be nothing left on some parts. That's when you get small pin-pricks of corrosion setting in, which then acts like sandpaper for a few seconds when you next start the engine.
But all that you need to do is disconnect the petrol supply and run it for a few seconds each month - the way that TVR set up the ECUs in the later cars anyway.Your original post really is nonesense however Chilli is quite correct:
Chilliman said:
This is in perfect keeping with the logic of our best friend..... Man Maths
and for that we salute you.TA14 said:
But all that you need to do is disconnect the petrol supply and run it for a few seconds each month - the way that TVR set up the ECUs in the later cars anyway.
Not convinced you'd get enough flow from the oil pump just on the starter. The only way to do it properly is to drive it.Edited to add: Out of interest, does anyone use a preservative oil for car engines? It's common practice for aero engines; but I've never heard of anyone using using it for a car engine.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Tuesday 11th December 11:49
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
TA14 said:
But all that you need to do is disconnect the petrol supply and run it for a few seconds each month - the way that TVR set up the ECUs in the later cars anyway.
Not convinced you'd get enough flow from the oil pump just on the starter. The only way to do it properly is to drive it.I still think that you're best to stuff the engineering and stick with the man maths.
Oh and get some decent epoxy mastic on those outriggers to avoid the need for replacing them.
dbv8 said:
carsy said:
If you dont use the car over Winter it isnt going to destroy your camshaft. Complete myth in my opinion. If it isnt being used how can it wear. Everything is covered in oil in there and it will be fine. The secret is not to keep firing it up just for a few minutes thinking you are doing it good keeping the oil circulating. This will potentially harm it. Just leave it alone until next Spring when you can give it a good run and your cam will be non the worse for it.
+1
Use it all year if you want too, and have an opinion on the merits of driving it all year, or not, but your comment about destroying the camshaft is I.M.O. c
ap. Im with the 2 guys above, sorning the car during winter does no harm whatsoever.It can at times be more beneficial.My car is sorned thru winter, but during these months its up on axle stands, with me changing engine oil, diff oil, gearbox oil, checking for play in the prop, diff, drive shafts etc, etc, and anything else i can find to do whilst im not driving it.
So by the time winter is over, the car is as good as new, and i can "drive it" as it should be driven, safe in the knowledge that everything is in fine fettle!
Your estimate for outriggers is fine if you just intend to change them and nothing else, but some of us who sorn our cars, myself in particular, would want to do a complete bodylift to change/renew everything from brake pipes, petrol pipes,suspension bushes etc, etc. So £1800 would be nowhere near the mark.
Dont take offence, but if you wish to drive your car all year, good luck to you, just dont have a go at those of us who dont, by telling us "the harm" we are all doing in laying are cars up for winter.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
I'm not saying you'll "destroy" your cam shaft - but you will accelerate its wear to a certain extent.
You wont. The cam shaft is in what should be an air tight environment covered in oil with no water. This will not cause more damage than when its spinning round at 3k rpm with lobes and tappets rubbing against it.Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Tuesday 11th December 12:53
Starting an engine to warm it up a bit without running it up to proper temperature can cause a little condensation in the rocker cover. This is not great for the cam.
The only damage you can really do to an engine by leaving it is to compress the valve springs for too long. but this, on a modern (ish) car takes years!
Source - i leave a 1980's Cosworth F1 engine alone for 6 odd months at a time in between runs. And that's fine. Start up procedure is a little longer though.
I think it depends a lot on where you keep it... I have a double garage that's half integral with the house and half on the side IYKWIM. Mine lives in there and is always nice and warm and I’m sure will never suffer from rust on cams or anything....
However, I do know of people who keep the cars under covers or have damp garages where I can well imagine condensation building up on cold metal and causing problems... I think if I was in this camp I’d keep mine running....
As it is, it’s SORN’d..... and in bits anyway
BTW.. a cam shaft should only be about £1k... or £250 if you DIY
However, I do know of people who keep the cars under covers or have damp garages where I can well imagine condensation building up on cold metal and causing problems... I think if I was in this camp I’d keep mine running....
As it is, it’s SORN’d..... and in bits anyway
BTW.. a cam shaft should only be about £1k... or £250 if you DIY
Edited by TVR Beaver on Tuesday 11th December 13:20
If you are worried about the ouotriggers - then wash them more frequently (than summertime) using water from a hosepipe..?!
Surely outriggers only corrode if salt is left on them - regular washing over winter would reduce salt contact times, and therefore corrosion..?
Or is this too simplistic..?
Dom
Surely outriggers only corrode if salt is left on them - regular washing over winter would reduce salt contact times, and therefore corrosion..?
Or is this too simplistic..?
Dom
I used advanced algorithmic man maths to justify both new outriggers (last year) and a new camshaft (as part of an engine rebuild)
No SORN, no need to worry about worn cams or chassis rot and just enjoy driving it whenever the sun is out/roads are dry (assuming it's not in bits for other upgrades/improvements that weekend)
No SORN, no need to worry about worn cams or chassis rot and just enjoy driving it whenever the sun is out/roads are dry (assuming it's not in bits for other upgrades/improvements that weekend)
carsy said:
If you dont use the car over Winter it isnt going to destroy your camshaft. Complete myth in my opinion. If it isnt being used how can it wear. Everything is covered in oil in there and it will be fine. The secret is not to keep firing it up just for a few minutes thinking you are doing it good keeping the oil circulating. This will potentially harm it. Just leave it alone until next Spring when you can give it a good run and your cam will be non the worse for it.
Agree with Carsy. I'm proposing a simple experiment over winter using same volume drops of Castrol multigrade 20/60 oil hot and cold on bright steel plates and measuring the vertical run. This I believe is how viscosity is measured. Initial observations indicate that blemish residues of oil certainly exist on the vertical runs after one month at least. The degree of any rusting (pin pricks) within and outside the blemish margins can also be observed.
I anticipate that a run of cold oil may leave more residue than hot oil. A single cold start at beginning of winter lay up, and engine switch off after max oil pressure (30lb+)may leave a thicker protective residue on the camshaft and bearing surfaces than a switch off after a hot engine run with fans on and showing a lower engine oil pressure (10-15lb).
For my own satisfaction, perhaps for nobody else's, I will see if this cam oil drain is a myth, true or not!
However,I may be wasting my time since the the oil engineers of Shell, Castrol magnatec etc already know the answer to all of this. Anybody know who we can talk with?
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