Goodwood. Disappearing up their own backsides?
Discussion
So, I went to the end of season Marshalls Club charity track day at my local circuit on last Friday. Unlike many, I was extra looking forward to my last track day of the season as the forecast was for heavy rain.
I was taking my Alfa Romeo 75 3.0, a car I have had for 7 years and been taking on a regular basis to Goodwood since then. She is one of the most forgiving cars you could hope to drive in those conditions, hence my looking forward to the rain, as they are such easy cars to play with and I love nothing more than going through the sequence of St. Marys, Lavant, Woodcote and finishing of with the Chicane in long tail out drifts.
I should point out at this stage that I worked at Goodwood a number of years back and have been regular enough in my attendance since that I know a few of the Marshalls and the cheif instructor on first name terms.
So, back to the story. It was so quiet on track that I spent the first 2 hours of the day, following a handful of slower laps to see how grippy/slippy it was going to be, on the track almost contiuously lapping in a consistent fashion, never having a 'moment' but always well sideways at the above mentioned corners. In short I was having a ball, exactly what I pay good money to go to a track day for. To be able to enjoy my cars in a safe traffic free environment where it is legal to enjoy its handling and performance.
At 11 am I was black flagged, so naturally came straight into the pits wondering why as I had not done any dodgy overtakes etc. I parked up and went to the pits where the cheif Marshall came up to me and told me to stop driving sideways as it was upsetting the Marshalls on watch. Apparently this was not the place to be driving like this, no matter whether I was in control or not. I was informed that if I was seen doing this again I would get another black flag. A third offence would see my drivers wrist band taken from me and that would be the end of my day.
To say I was both disgusted and highly p***ed off is an understatement. I wandered around for a bit and didn't go out again in the morning, before deciding at the end of the morning session that it had so ruined my day that I couldn't be bothered to go out again in the afternoon so I went and expalined this to the track day organiser and asked if he would be prepared to refund me my fees as I had decided to go home. He was very sympathetic and happily did so, while apolgising for the situation. One of the duty Marshalls, who I know, also apologised to me as he has watched me do the same thing here for years and couldn't see the problem.
Am I missing something here, or is the whole point of paying good money out to do track days to be able to enjoy our cars in this fashin in a safe environment. Okay, if I kept spinning and falling off etc and was causing track closures thereby affecting the fun of others I would see their issue, but that was not the case. Has anybody else experienced this kind of ludicrous treatment at Goodwood, or indeed anywhere else so I can avoid wasting money and a much longer trip. They'll be telling us you can't go over 70 next in case you may have an accident.
I am minded to write a letter to Lord March on this issues as it has so riled me, it would be good to hear if anyone else has experienced anything similar. Sorry about the long rant, I am still steaming!!
I was taking my Alfa Romeo 75 3.0, a car I have had for 7 years and been taking on a regular basis to Goodwood since then. She is one of the most forgiving cars you could hope to drive in those conditions, hence my looking forward to the rain, as they are such easy cars to play with and I love nothing more than going through the sequence of St. Marys, Lavant, Woodcote and finishing of with the Chicane in long tail out drifts.
I should point out at this stage that I worked at Goodwood a number of years back and have been regular enough in my attendance since that I know a few of the Marshalls and the cheif instructor on first name terms.
So, back to the story. It was so quiet on track that I spent the first 2 hours of the day, following a handful of slower laps to see how grippy/slippy it was going to be, on the track almost contiuously lapping in a consistent fashion, never having a 'moment' but always well sideways at the above mentioned corners. In short I was having a ball, exactly what I pay good money to go to a track day for. To be able to enjoy my cars in a safe traffic free environment where it is legal to enjoy its handling and performance.
At 11 am I was black flagged, so naturally came straight into the pits wondering why as I had not done any dodgy overtakes etc. I parked up and went to the pits where the cheif Marshall came up to me and told me to stop driving sideways as it was upsetting the Marshalls on watch. Apparently this was not the place to be driving like this, no matter whether I was in control or not. I was informed that if I was seen doing this again I would get another black flag. A third offence would see my drivers wrist band taken from me and that would be the end of my day.
To say I was both disgusted and highly p***ed off is an understatement. I wandered around for a bit and didn't go out again in the morning, before deciding at the end of the morning session that it had so ruined my day that I couldn't be bothered to go out again in the afternoon so I went and expalined this to the track day organiser and asked if he would be prepared to refund me my fees as I had decided to go home. He was very sympathetic and happily did so, while apolgising for the situation. One of the duty Marshalls, who I know, also apologised to me as he has watched me do the same thing here for years and couldn't see the problem.
Am I missing something here, or is the whole point of paying good money out to do track days to be able to enjoy our cars in this fashin in a safe environment. Okay, if I kept spinning and falling off etc and was causing track closures thereby affecting the fun of others I would see their issue, but that was not the case. Has anybody else experienced this kind of ludicrous treatment at Goodwood, or indeed anywhere else so I can avoid wasting money and a much longer trip. They'll be telling us you can't go over 70 next in case you may have an accident.
I am minded to write a letter to Lord March on this issues as it has so riled me, it would be good to hear if anyone else has experienced anything similar. Sorry about the long rant, I am still steaming!!
Yes, I've been black flagged for 'drifting'.
But, like you, I wasn't on a drift day so I took the advice and enjoyed the rest of the day concentrating on being quick rather than sideways.
Don't really see what the problem was to be honest. If you want to drift, book a drift event. Easy
But, like you, I wasn't on a drift day so I took the advice and enjoyed the rest of the day concentrating on being quick rather than sideways.
Don't really see what the problem was to be honest. If you want to drift, book a drift event. Easy
I was on that day and my video is up on another thread. I felt that my driving style is probably pretty normal for Goodwood as 4 wheel drifts are the quickest way round when grip is limited. Nobody told me off. I've never been before so I have no idea what their standards are.
Normally "drifting" is an issue because of tyre noise, but we both know that it wasn't a problem on Friday. I believe that you can hang the car out as much as you like until you spin it or bin it. There were loads of red flags but neither caused by you or I (the owner did spin at St Marys just before the session I did).
It was very quiet out on track with some very big differences in car/driver quality but it wasn't much of a problem with the slower guys moving over in advance.
I thought your car sounded fantastic - I wasn't on track at the same time, but from the pits the warble was smile inducing. It was a shame we didn't hear it for very long.
Normally "drifting" is an issue because of tyre noise, but we both know that it wasn't a problem on Friday. I believe that you can hang the car out as much as you like until you spin it or bin it. There were loads of red flags but neither caused by you or I (the owner did spin at St Marys just before the session I did).
It was very quiet out on track with some very big differences in car/driver quality but it wasn't much of a problem with the slower guys moving over in advance.
I thought your car sounded fantastic - I wasn't on track at the same time, but from the pits the warble was smile inducing. It was a shame we didn't hear it for very long.
As above. I really get nervous when the odd driver thinks its a drifting day and performs difts in close proximity to my car. I don't doubt you were ever in danger of dropping the car but the marshalls, TDO and steward aren't to know this. Like others I'd say book a drift day. I'm assuming you were on the lock stops rather then a applying a dab of oppo to coin a phrase.
mrmr96 said:
IMO, as a fellow trackday driver, I'd prefer if people wanting to drift went to a drift day, instead of a trackday. Just my 2cents. The organisers have to look after the interests of the majority of participants.
Agreed, but it can be difficult to judge. Anyone going slow on purpose all round the track to go sideways shouldn't be there, but vintage cars etc need to be slid round corners. You can't ban them just because they are sliding. If you go to the Revival, you will notice all the cars moving about a lot. I don't see why I'm not allowed to do that too and as far as I can see I am allowed to that that.
I think that sliding in the pursuit of speed is fine but "drifting" when there are cars nearby is wrong. "Drifting" on an empty circuit?.... Hmm - it's fine unless you are a danger to people, cars, the wall or the wildlife.
Going back a few years to when I was doing the odd track day, seeing the odd car in a slight/occasional drift was normal and expected (no I don't mean deliberately slowing down and trying to drift every where). On the basis that you aren't supposed to overtake in the corners then sliding a bit (so long as you were no were near anybody else always seemed okay).
I appreciate that by and large keeping it straight is generally quicker but trackdays are supposed to be fun? Or at least were...
And I guess most people wouldn't want to go on a drift day unless you intend to be sideways everywere?
I cant help but be a bit concerned about this because I am thinking about getting back into track days, never was much of a sideways merchant but did occasionally and don't want my day spoilt by over zealous marshaling.
I appreciate that by and large keeping it straight is generally quicker but trackdays are supposed to be fun? Or at least were...
And I guess most people wouldn't want to go on a drift day unless you intend to be sideways everywere?
I cant help but be a bit concerned about this because I am thinking about getting back into track days, never was much of a sideways merchant but did occasionally and don't want my day spoilt by over zealous marshaling.
drakart said:
Agreed, but it can be difficult to judge. Anyone going slow on purpose all round the track to go sideways shouldn't be there, but vintage cars etc need to be slid round corners. You can't ban them just because they are sliding.
If you go to the Revival, you will notice all the cars moving about a lot. I don't see why I'm not allowed to do that too and as far as I can see I am allowed to that that.
I think that sliding in the pursuit of speed is fine but "drifting" when there are cars nearby is wrong. "Drifting" on an empty circuit?.... Hmm - it's fine unless you are a danger to people, cars, the wall or the wildlife.
I don't mean to be rude to any of the previous posters here, but the above is exactly my point. I have no desire to go to a 'drift' day at all, from what I can gather the sole aim being to drive your car on full lock around every available bend with smoke pouring of the tyres. If you go to the Revival, you will notice all the cars moving about a lot. I don't see why I'm not allowed to do that too and as far as I can see I am allowed to that that.
I think that sliding in the pursuit of speed is fine but "drifting" when there are cars nearby is wrong. "Drifting" on an empty circuit?.... Hmm - it's fine unless you are a danger to people, cars, the wall or the wildlife.
As drakart says, I drive an old rear wheel drive car with 180bhp, not some turbo'd 500bhp thing set up to go sideways. I was not on the lock stops, at most a turn of lock with 3.5 lock to lock available. The point is cars like this drift if driven correctly. If I just 'drive' around in the wet in the 75 I would just understeer towards the oustside of the track at quite modest speeds on all but the fastest corners. If I use the chassis and rear wheel drive to set the car up for a bend properly the attitude she will take is tail out in a fabulous feeling drift. It is far quicker in this car, smoother and far more enjoyable and is actually driving the car correctly. I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here, but I passed every car on track while I was out including some super quick modern 4x4 stuff, sensibly and not while going sideways or in the bends as per the etiquette and was never passed by anything else, and had a number of nice comments from people about it on the day as I have previously.
I just can't understand the mentallity that suggests at a track day, on a race circuit that this is unacceptable, or that the people running a race circuit that ONLY allows historic racing in cars that exemplify the above do not understand this.
It is interesting to hear other peoples thoughts on this, I hope that I have qualified myself more clearly with the above.
As the others have said, it depends what you were doing. Your OP referred to "long tail out drifts" and being "well sideways", and as such the emphasis appeared to be on drifting. Your follow up post above explains that your weren't 'trying' to drift as such, but rather lap quickly and you happen to drive a car which requires this technique. As noted, these are different things so I'd expect different treatment from TDO's. Having said that, even if you're doing the latter, I'd only expect you to be drifting when you had a section of track to yourself. If you were passing or being passed (or about to pass or be passed) then I'd expect 'tidier' driving to minimise the risks to all, but only until the pass was done and you have clear space to yourself again.
I had a moment once but managed to collect it with no issues other than running the left front over the lip of the tarmac and clipping the grass a bit for about 2 feet. This got me black flagged and a good telling off from some lard arsed holier than thou marshall for being 'all over the shop' Maybe he'd just mowed the grass and i'd gone and ruined the whole section by leaving a tyre mark on it i don't know. Either way he was a knob.
Another time i missed 4th going into woodcote and ended up locking the rears and spinning it. Fair enough my fault but i got it going again and headed into the pits. I was then greeted by the same lard arsed holier than thou prick who, firstly, had a pop at me for spinning off and then accused me of not checking the car for damage, i was busy unbuckling my straps at this point so i could actually get out of the car and do just that i didn't know there was a 5 second time limit to do this once you've stopped. And i knew there wasn't any damage because we ended up 3 feet off the track on the concrete and hadn't hit anything and the car felt fine driving back to the pits as well.
He then followed me over to the instructor for the day (because you have to have a chat with him if you spin to see if it was your mistake or the cars or whatever) and proceeded to tell the instructor that i 'dropped it at woodcote and didn't know what the hell i was doing'
Now this raised the bladder temp a bit so i rather sharply cut in explaining i knew exactly what had happened and that it was my fault and i would be more careful next time. The instructor was completely fine with this and i took him to one side and had a few words regarding 'the marshall' and his woeful attitude, to which he replied by saying he seems to be harsher on younger drivers. I'd get it if i was a yob with a cap and saxo but i wasn't.
Added to the fact that they only operate 5 cars on track for 15 minute sessions so you only get to out a few times throughout the whole day if it's busy then yes Goodwood is really getting up its arse and you can have a lot more fun a lot cheaper elsewhere.
Another time i missed 4th going into woodcote and ended up locking the rears and spinning it. Fair enough my fault but i got it going again and headed into the pits. I was then greeted by the same lard arsed holier than thou prick who, firstly, had a pop at me for spinning off and then accused me of not checking the car for damage, i was busy unbuckling my straps at this point so i could actually get out of the car and do just that i didn't know there was a 5 second time limit to do this once you've stopped. And i knew there wasn't any damage because we ended up 3 feet off the track on the concrete and hadn't hit anything and the car felt fine driving back to the pits as well.
He then followed me over to the instructor for the day (because you have to have a chat with him if you spin to see if it was your mistake or the cars or whatever) and proceeded to tell the instructor that i 'dropped it at woodcote and didn't know what the hell i was doing'
Now this raised the bladder temp a bit so i rather sharply cut in explaining i knew exactly what had happened and that it was my fault and i would be more careful next time. The instructor was completely fine with this and i took him to one side and had a few words regarding 'the marshall' and his woeful attitude, to which he replied by saying he seems to be harsher on younger drivers. I'd get it if i was a yob with a cap and saxo but i wasn't.
Added to the fact that they only operate 5 cars on track for 15 minute sessions so you only get to out a few times throughout the whole day if it's busy then yes Goodwood is really getting up its arse and you can have a lot more fun a lot cheaper elsewhere.
I'm with the OP - nonsense. If you can't get the tail out in a controlled manner on a wet trackday then how are you supposed to learn to control it at higher speeds in the dry when driving in anger and it steps out on its own. So long as there's no other cars nearby, you're not going off the tarmac or spinning then I see absolutely no harm.
It should be encouraged that you learn car control in this way - if more people did it they'd be far more capable and confident in their capabilities and thereby safer.
It should be encouraged that you learn car control in this way - if more people did it they'd be far more capable and confident in their capabilities and thereby safer.
GokTweed said:
I had a moment once but managed to collect it with no issues other than running the left front over the lip of the tarmac and clipping the grass a bit for about 2 feet. This got me black flagged and a good telling off from some lard arsed holier than thou marshall for being 'all over the shop' Maybe he'd just mowed the grass and i'd gone and ruined the whole section by leaving a tyre mark on it i don't know. Either way he was a knob.
Another time i missed 4th going into woodcote and ended up locking the rears and spinning it. Fair enough my fault but i got it going again and headed into the pits.
I always thought that if you didn't have at least one "moment" then you really weren't trying hard enough! I remember doing some grass cutting at Anglesey and Croft and spinning at Bedford and Rockingham, it didnt even raise an eyebrow let alone a flag!* Another time i missed 4th going into woodcote and ended up locking the rears and spinning it. Fair enough my fault but i got it going again and headed into the pits.
Has the attitude changed so drastically in the intervening few years or is it very circuit/organiser dependent?
- Always well away from other cars, I was never a problem for others.
I find it extremely frustrating that some tracks (and individuals) equate occasional trackday oversteer with drifting. They are not the same thing. However, on a trackday in a RWD car you simply aren't trying hard enough if you don't have occasional oversteer, more-so on a damp or wet day.
I do think this is symptomatic of a wider problem on trackdays: that is ever-increasing regulation and risk-averse organisers. I've seen track-days that resemble little more than a procession due to strict overtaking rules and coned-off corners. Add to this an almost ban on going sideways, strict noise regulations, getting thrown off for spinning, being too close to other cars, 'too much tyre noise' etc, etc...
I do think this is symptomatic of a wider problem on trackdays: that is ever-increasing regulation and risk-averse organisers. I've seen track-days that resemble little more than a procession due to strict overtaking rules and coned-off corners. Add to this an almost ban on going sideways, strict noise regulations, getting thrown off for spinning, being too close to other cars, 'too much tyre noise' etc, etc...
Rgm racer said:
mrmr96 said:
IMO, as a fellow trackday driver, I'd prefer if people wanting to drift went to a drift day, instead of a trackday. Just my 2cents. The organisers have to look after the interests of the majority of participants.
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