Eyes on a Diesel GT.
Discussion
Looking for a diesel car for my other half and she loves the Scirocco. She's impressed by both the economy figures and the performance figures of both the 138bhp and the 167bhp diesel engines (both 2.0L)
I've never driven a diesel before whereas she learnt to drive in a diesel 207 and gladly. I'm excited to try them out if I'm honest! I'm well aware of the slack diesels get from petrolheads not excluding from fellow forum users, but I'd like to keep a more open mind. I don't understand how a car can lose all chance of sportiness just because they're diesel. 0-60 figures seem impressive which means only that they must simply feel slow to drive. Quite the opposite, the verdict seems to be; because of their giant torque they supposedly feel even faster than they are.
I've just read the "sporty diesel" thread on this forum (11 pages long) and a sizeable chunk of forum users claimed that driving a diesel hard returns mpg figures not dissimilar to a petrol equivalent. But how exactly do you drive a diesel hard? I can understand with petrols you drive hard by revving the hell out of them, but diesels have narrow powerbands that force you to drive at lowish revs. The only other thing that could disadvantage the diesel's fuel economy is a heavy right foot, but I would hazard the guess that it wouldn't come as as much detriment to fuel economy compared with driving a petrol engine hard.
Would it be totally outlandish for me to suggest that if we were to outline the specification of the perfect GT car, that it would have a diesel engine in it? My understanding is that a GT is supposed to be fast enough to perform every road manoeuvre, legal and imaginable, with effortlessness and eloquence, yet at the same time maintain long-distance comfort, all whilst making as few fuel stops as possible. A diesel engine would seem the ideal candidate.
I walk to work but whenever I get a week or so off work I make a 4 hour trip up north to visit family and friends. With flexible shift patterns I can usually manage to group the days off of 2 or 3 weeks together in one go without using up annual leave, so in total I will make this trip many times a year. At the moment, the gf has a 1 litre Aygo. We have both agreed it has become totally uninspiring to drive and is a pain in the back on long journeys. I have just bought a 106 GTI with leather seats which are very comfortable but I haven't made the trip up north in it once yet, and to be honest I am dreading to find out the cost of it. Once I am up there I do a lot of driving every day, so fuel consumption goes right up. Keeping in mind that we're after something with good economy AND performance, would you get the 138bhp Bluemotion Scirocco (62mpg, 9 second 0-60) or would you go for the 167bhp (55mpg, 7.8 seconds 0-60) both of which are going to be far and away faster than the Aygo we currently drive? Or perhaps you could suggest an even better ownership proposition?
I've never driven a diesel before whereas she learnt to drive in a diesel 207 and gladly. I'm excited to try them out if I'm honest! I'm well aware of the slack diesels get from petrolheads not excluding from fellow forum users, but I'd like to keep a more open mind. I don't understand how a car can lose all chance of sportiness just because they're diesel. 0-60 figures seem impressive which means only that they must simply feel slow to drive. Quite the opposite, the verdict seems to be; because of their giant torque they supposedly feel even faster than they are.
I've just read the "sporty diesel" thread on this forum (11 pages long) and a sizeable chunk of forum users claimed that driving a diesel hard returns mpg figures not dissimilar to a petrol equivalent. But how exactly do you drive a diesel hard? I can understand with petrols you drive hard by revving the hell out of them, but diesels have narrow powerbands that force you to drive at lowish revs. The only other thing that could disadvantage the diesel's fuel economy is a heavy right foot, but I would hazard the guess that it wouldn't come as as much detriment to fuel economy compared with driving a petrol engine hard.
Would it be totally outlandish for me to suggest that if we were to outline the specification of the perfect GT car, that it would have a diesel engine in it? My understanding is that a GT is supposed to be fast enough to perform every road manoeuvre, legal and imaginable, with effortlessness and eloquence, yet at the same time maintain long-distance comfort, all whilst making as few fuel stops as possible. A diesel engine would seem the ideal candidate.
I walk to work but whenever I get a week or so off work I make a 4 hour trip up north to visit family and friends. With flexible shift patterns I can usually manage to group the days off of 2 or 3 weeks together in one go without using up annual leave, so in total I will make this trip many times a year. At the moment, the gf has a 1 litre Aygo. We have both agreed it has become totally uninspiring to drive and is a pain in the back on long journeys. I have just bought a 106 GTI with leather seats which are very comfortable but I haven't made the trip up north in it once yet, and to be honest I am dreading to find out the cost of it. Once I am up there I do a lot of driving every day, so fuel consumption goes right up. Keeping in mind that we're after something with good economy AND performance, would you get the 138bhp Bluemotion Scirocco (62mpg, 9 second 0-60) or would you go for the 167bhp (55mpg, 7.8 seconds 0-60) both of which are going to be far and away faster than the Aygo we currently drive? Or perhaps you could suggest an even better ownership proposition?
New or used? How old would yo go & how long would you keep for?
Budget?
What do you call 'many' trips up North? We would all have different definitions of that.
Overall total mileage (doesn't sound like there's an awful lot outside of the roadtrips on the face of it)?
Why not petrol, possible fuel economy aside?
Really want a Scirocco or flexible on options?
Degree of driving interest?
I'll be honest. Unless I was doing 40k a year or more or was forced to by a company car scheme, I wouldn't entertain the dark side (been funding 15-30k of petrol miles for thick end of 20 years now, so not likely to change).
I understand why some people might be swayed and why it makes 100% sense to others, but TBH, I'm not sure that you wouldn't be better served by an appropriate petrol car. However, it depends a huge amount on your answers to the above.
Personally I'd go 2.0l petrol Scirocco (if wanting that) or one of a host of alternatives (obvious one might be a 3l BMW of some flavour - it would seem to be surprisingly economical on a run).
Budget?
What do you call 'many' trips up North? We would all have different definitions of that.
Overall total mileage (doesn't sound like there's an awful lot outside of the roadtrips on the face of it)?
Why not petrol, possible fuel economy aside?
Really want a Scirocco or flexible on options?
Degree of driving interest?
I'll be honest. Unless I was doing 40k a year or more or was forced to by a company car scheme, I wouldn't entertain the dark side (been funding 15-30k of petrol miles for thick end of 20 years now, so not likely to change).
I understand why some people might be swayed and why it makes 100% sense to others, but TBH, I'm not sure that you wouldn't be better served by an appropriate petrol car. However, it depends a huge amount on your answers to the above.
Personally I'd go 2.0l petrol Scirocco (if wanting that) or one of a host of alternatives (obvious one might be a 3l BMW of some flavour - it would seem to be surprisingly economical on a run).
DukeDickson said:
New or used? How old would yo go & how long would you keep for?
Budget?
What do you call 'many' trips up North? We would all have different definitions of that.
Overall total mileage (doesn't sound like there's an awful lot outside of the roadtrips on the face of it)?
Why not petrol, possible fuel economy aside?
Really want a Scirocco or flexible on options?
Degree of driving interest?
I'll be honest. Unless I was doing 40k a year or more or was forced to by a company car scheme, I wouldn't entertain the dark side (been funding 15-30k of petrol miles for thick end of 20 years now, so not likely to change).
I understand why some people might be swayed and why it makes 100% sense to others, but TBH, I'm not sure that you wouldn't be better served by an appropriate petrol car. However, it depends a huge amount on your answers to the above.
Personally I'd go 2.0l petrol Scirocco (if wanting that) or one of a host of alternatives (obvious one might be a 3l BMW of some flavour - it would seem to be surprisingly economical on a run).
Used, anything from last decade.Budget?
What do you call 'many' trips up North? We would all have different definitions of that.
Overall total mileage (doesn't sound like there's an awful lot outside of the roadtrips on the face of it)?
Why not petrol, possible fuel economy aside?
Really want a Scirocco or flexible on options?
Degree of driving interest?
I'll be honest. Unless I was doing 40k a year or more or was forced to by a company car scheme, I wouldn't entertain the dark side (been funding 15-30k of petrol miles for thick end of 20 years now, so not likely to change).
I understand why some people might be swayed and why it makes 100% sense to others, but TBH, I'm not sure that you wouldn't be better served by an appropriate petrol car. However, it depends a huge amount on your answers to the above.
Personally I'd go 2.0l petrol Scirocco (if wanting that) or one of a host of alternatives (obvious one might be a 3l BMW of some flavour - it would seem to be surprisingly economical on a run).
Budget is round about 6k. I realize the Scirocco is probably out of this budget
I'd say it's approx 1 trip per month.
Total mileage will only be about 8k I should think.
She likes diesel for some reason and I'd like to try it. I have a 106 GTI so it would offer me more variety if she got a different kind of car to myself.
Probably flexible but on the condition that she likes it.
We both love to drive and wouldn't buy a car if it wasn't entertaining to drive.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If I had my way I would get the BMW for it's RWD, which I would imagine copes better with the huge torque of a diesel right? (And it would be different to my 106 GTI in yet another way) Do diesels generally have more wheelspin than petrols, provided all other conditions are the same?Two things that stand out to me from what you've said is your budget and your mileage.
Your budget will never get you a scirocco even the ropiest of examples aren't that cheap and your mileage is far far too low to make a diesel worth having economy-wise, you will pay more for the car, more for the fuel, more for the servicing than your petrol equivalent and will save nothing in your ownership. Additionally doing such low mileage especially if alot of it is just short trips, you are just asking for DPF trouble which is an additional expense.
These days you need to be doing 13-15k+ to make a diesel make sense from a financial perspective.
Your budget will never get you a scirocco even the ropiest of examples aren't that cheap and your mileage is far far too low to make a diesel worth having economy-wise, you will pay more for the car, more for the fuel, more for the servicing than your petrol equivalent and will save nothing in your ownership. Additionally doing such low mileage especially if alot of it is just short trips, you are just asking for DPF trouble which is an additional expense.
These days you need to be doing 13-15k+ to make a diesel make sense from a financial perspective.
BadBanshee said:
Used, anything from last decade.
Budget is round about 6k. I realize the Scirocco is probably out of this budget
I'd say it's approx 1 trip per month.
Total mileage will only be about 8k I should think.
She likes diesel for some reason and I'd like to try it. I have a 106 GTI so it would offer me more variety if she got a different kind of car to myself.
Probably flexible but on the condition that she likes it.
We both love to drive and wouldn't buy a car if it wasn't entertaining to drive.
You're not getting a Scirocco for 6k, unless looking at the older ones (no diesel) or one that's been to the moon, back, moon, back and out again.Budget is round about 6k. I realize the Scirocco is probably out of this budget
I'd say it's approx 1 trip per month.
Total mileage will only be about 8k I should think.
She likes diesel for some reason and I'd like to try it. I have a 106 GTI so it would offer me more variety if she got a different kind of car to myself.
Probably flexible but on the condition that she likes it.
We both love to drive and wouldn't buy a car if it wasn't entertaining to drive.
1 trip per month is nothing TBH and I wouldn't get wrapped up in that as a reason to buy a diesel. Crikey, I spent years doing pretty much every weekend.
Even a relative guzzler of a petrol would cost @ £30 - £40 per trip/month extra. Now factor in extra cost of diesel and higher purchase price - just not worth the extra, moreso if you have a petrol that'll do a higher mpg.
8k - Nowhere near tipping point for diesel, unless you really have a specific desire for one.
Your better half probably likes the ease of driving that comes from accessible torque. Plenty of people do for at least 98% of the time.
For your budget, if you can live with the image and can get your head around the maths, I'd almost be tempted to suggest a Focus ST. Quite diesel like in delivery, good m-way car (consumption aside) and the engine ought to gobble up the mileage. If not an option, you might get a pretty miley 130 and ought to get a decent 330, plus lots of other options (Octavia vRS as an example).
It's not true that driving diesels hard gives you the same mpg as a petrol. For example trashing my car I get 24mpg,at 140mph I get around 18mpg but that's foot to the floor flat out. A equivalent petrol would get half of what the 170bhp vw gets,I tried it.
Then again you have to remember that an automatic diesel ain't exactly the same like a manual petrol equivalent.
For your budget you would be lucky if you get a 5 year old golf with the 170 engine
Then again you have to remember that an automatic diesel ain't exactly the same like a manual petrol equivalent.
For your budget you would be lucky if you get a 5 year old golf with the 170 engine
Edited by wheedler on Tuesday 25th December 17:12
I have done a very nice Lake District blast in a BMW Mini Mayfair diesel with six speed manual, the thing was absolutely superb, with huge long legs and handling to match, and 54mpg even worked hard. with modern diesels you have to be open minded and learn to drive them properly, anyone who is not open minded and has just stepped out of a revvy honda will need to rethink their approach
I have done a very nice Lake District blast in a BMW Mini Mayfair diesel with six speed manual, the thing was absolutely superb, with huge long legs and handling to match, and 54mpg even worked hard. with modern diesels you have to be open minded and learn to drive them properly, anyone who is not open minded and has just stepped out of a revvy honda will need to rethink their approach
tyranical said:
Two things that stand out to me from what you've said is your budget and your mileage.
Your budget will never get you a scirocco even the ropiest of examples aren't that cheap and your mileage is far far too low to make a diesel worth having economy-wise, you will pay more for the car, more for the fuel, more for the servicing than your petrol equivalent and will save nothing in your ownership. Additionally doing such low mileage especially if alot of it is just short trips, you are just asking for DPF trouble which is an additional expense.
These days you need to be doing 13-15k+ to make a diesel make sense from a financial perspective.
Where did you get that figure from? In the sporty diesel thread I talked about earlier, someone said you have to be doing 20k miles. So that's 5-8k difference, which is alot. I don't mean to insult your knowledge but it seems these figures are a result of pure guesswork. Even in my early petrolhead days reading Whatcar magazines, I always formed my own opinion about diesels, that they were either more or (sometimes even) less economical than petrols REGARDLESS of how many miles you do. Think about it. Say one petrol car does 40mpg and one diesel car does 60mpg, taking into account the slight difference in price between the two fuels, each mile would cost x amount in the petrol and x amount in the diesel. That figure is constant no matter how many miles you do. You're saving money in the diesel right from the word go, not after 13, 15 or 20k miles. However, I can recall one example where the diesel alternative of a vehicle was actually less economical than the petrol, per mile. It was the Aygo (or one of its variants, I'm unsure which now) and they have discontinued the diesels now, with good riddance. I understand that servicing costs and depreciation will be different on the diesel, but I can hardly imagine how you could have factored in such indeterminate costs and come up with any figure at all.Your budget will never get you a scirocco even the ropiest of examples aren't that cheap and your mileage is far far too low to make a diesel worth having economy-wise, you will pay more for the car, more for the fuel, more for the servicing than your petrol equivalent and will save nothing in your ownership. Additionally doing such low mileage especially if alot of it is just short trips, you are just asking for DPF trouble which is an additional expense.
These days you need to be doing 13-15k+ to make a diesel make sense from a financial perspective.
Flatinfourth said:
I have done a very nice Lake District blast in a BMW Mini Mayfair diesel with six speed manual, the thing was absolutely superb, with huge long legs and handling to match, and 54mpg even worked hard. with modern diesels you have to be open minded and learn to drive them properly, anyone who is not open minded and has just stepped out of a revvy honda will need to rethink their approach
That's how I'm inclined to think as well, but I have never driven a diesel so don't have any experience. But in the theory, I don't see why a diesel must be inherently unsporty. The fact they aren't revvy is surely a matter of taste. On paper you can make the same progress in a diesel than you can in a petrol (you can do better progress in a diesel version that does the same mpg, that much is indisputable!) What's more, is that in many hot hatch debates concerning turbo vs NA petrols, the benefit of the better low-rev performance of the turbos seems to make for a faster car even with less bhp. The reason being, that the power delivery is more instant out of the corners. But then there are countless PHers who would have a heart attack at the suggestion that a diesel is about as sporty as an NA petrol due to them both having a narrow powerband, and that the only cars that are viably sporty are turbo petrols.
So what I'm suggesting, is that the opinion that diesels are unsporty is completely unfounded upon anything but myth and taste. What's the difference between making the most of the narrow powerband in a petrol (high rev) vs making the most of the narrow powerband in a diesel (low rev) and how does that difference dictate how one is sporty and the other isn't?
I would say a 320d or 330d would fit your bill.
i have a Renault Laguna GT 180 which is a 2l diesel and it is is perfect for long distance work. Power is OK, economy is OK. Sure, you can get more power, but economy suffers. 1.6 diesels are available, but too slow. Two litre units at around 170/180 bhp are where its at for economy GT cars.
i have a Renault Laguna GT 180 which is a 2l diesel and it is is perfect for long distance work. Power is OK, economy is OK. Sure, you can get more power, but economy suffers. 1.6 diesels are available, but too slow. Two litre units at around 170/180 bhp are where its at for economy GT cars.
Diesel will more or less always beat petrol for MPG on like for like comparisons, no matter what you are doing with it.
Diesel engines tend to be heavier than petrol equivalents, can adversely affect handling.
Diesel engines will never be as refined or smooth as petrol equivalents, but they are fairly good these days all the same. They do clatter at low speeds especially still though.
The traditional diesel experience is a slug of torque in a very narrow band, then absolutely nothing. Newer engines such as the VW Common rail units are far more linear in torque delivery, but still go breathless at the top of the rev range. Those final few thousand revs are often the most fun in a good petrol engine, in a diesel they are way past the engines best and the redline.
Issues diesel engines suffer from vary; my family has never had a problem with any of our VW TDIs in millions of combined miles but they are supposedly prone to oil pump failure and a few other niggles. If its a diesel with a DPF fitted go in with your eyes open because that's a potentially large bill.
They make a hateful 'canal-boat' noise from the outside around town, often mostly silent or a dull mumble at speed.
My own take on something like a scirocco TDI is that you are getting a less polished product than the equivalent petrol; you'll most likely see 10-15 MPG better in general driving and perhaps 5-10 when driving with 'enthusiasm'. Any enjoyment you derive from actually driving is dulled by 10-20%(or more) by the characteristics of the diesel engine in my opinion.
Given the choice, taking all costs of buying and depreciation etc. out of the question then I'd advise most people avoid diesel unless you do intergalactic mileages.
Diesel engines tend to be heavier than petrol equivalents, can adversely affect handling.
Diesel engines will never be as refined or smooth as petrol equivalents, but they are fairly good these days all the same. They do clatter at low speeds especially still though.
The traditional diesel experience is a slug of torque in a very narrow band, then absolutely nothing. Newer engines such as the VW Common rail units are far more linear in torque delivery, but still go breathless at the top of the rev range. Those final few thousand revs are often the most fun in a good petrol engine, in a diesel they are way past the engines best and the redline.
Issues diesel engines suffer from vary; my family has never had a problem with any of our VW TDIs in millions of combined miles but they are supposedly prone to oil pump failure and a few other niggles. If its a diesel with a DPF fitted go in with your eyes open because that's a potentially large bill.
They make a hateful 'canal-boat' noise from the outside around town, often mostly silent or a dull mumble at speed.
My own take on something like a scirocco TDI is that you are getting a less polished product than the equivalent petrol; you'll most likely see 10-15 MPG better in general driving and perhaps 5-10 when driving with 'enthusiasm'. Any enjoyment you derive from actually driving is dulled by 10-20%(or more) by the characteristics of the diesel engine in my opinion.
Given the choice, taking all costs of buying and depreciation etc. out of the question then I'd advise most people avoid diesel unless you do intergalactic mileages.
FisiP1 said:
Diesel will more or less always beat petrol for MPG on like for like comparisons, no matter what you are doing with it.
Diesel engines tend to be heavier than petrol equivalents, can adversely affect handling.
Diesel engines will never be as refined or smooth as petrol equivalents, but they are fairly good these days all the same. They do clatter at low speeds especially still though.
The traditional diesel experience is a slug of torque in a very narrow band, then absolutely nothing. Newer engines such as the VW Common rail units are far more linear in torque delivery, but still go breathless at the top of the rev range. Those final few thousand revs are often the most fun in a good petrol engine, in a diesel they are way past the engines best and the redline.
Issues diesel engines suffer from vary; my family has never had a problem with any of our VW TDIs in millions of combined miles but they are supposedly prone to oil pump failure and a few other niggles. If its a diesel with a DPF fitted go in with your eyes open because that's a potentially large bill.
They make a hateful 'canal-boat' noise from the outside around town, often mostly silent or a dull mumble at speed.
My own take on something like a scirocco TDI is that you are getting a less polished product than the equivalent petrol; you'll most likely see 10-15 MPG better in general driving and perhaps 5-10 when driving with 'enthusiasm'. Any enjoyment you derive from actually driving is dulled by 10-20%(or more) by the characteristics of the diesel engine in my opinion.
Given the choice, taking all costs of buying and depreciation etc. out of the question then I'd advise most people avoid diesel unless you do intergalactic mileages.
Would you say that the drop in torque in turbo diesels is similar to the drop in torque in turbo petrols and is the dissatisfaction the same?Diesel engines tend to be heavier than petrol equivalents, can adversely affect handling.
Diesel engines will never be as refined or smooth as petrol equivalents, but they are fairly good these days all the same. They do clatter at low speeds especially still though.
The traditional diesel experience is a slug of torque in a very narrow band, then absolutely nothing. Newer engines such as the VW Common rail units are far more linear in torque delivery, but still go breathless at the top of the rev range. Those final few thousand revs are often the most fun in a good petrol engine, in a diesel they are way past the engines best and the redline.
Issues diesel engines suffer from vary; my family has never had a problem with any of our VW TDIs in millions of combined miles but they are supposedly prone to oil pump failure and a few other niggles. If its a diesel with a DPF fitted go in with your eyes open because that's a potentially large bill.
They make a hateful 'canal-boat' noise from the outside around town, often mostly silent or a dull mumble at speed.
My own take on something like a scirocco TDI is that you are getting a less polished product than the equivalent petrol; you'll most likely see 10-15 MPG better in general driving and perhaps 5-10 when driving with 'enthusiasm'. Any enjoyment you derive from actually driving is dulled by 10-20%(or more) by the characteristics of the diesel engine in my opinion.
Given the choice, taking all costs of buying and depreciation etc. out of the question then I'd advise most people avoid diesel unless you do intergalactic mileages.
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