Power Upgrades
Discussion
I dropped off my car this morning at John Noble Motorsport to have faulty brake lights fixed.Whilst there one of the Directors ,Peter Dibble , gave me details of the upgrade work they can carry out on M12s with the apparent blessing of the factory albeit after the warrenty has expired. The following information is repeated from their spec sheet so if you need further detail just give them a call.
Stage 1- Available for both 2.5 and 3.0
The Noble Motorsport designed intercooler is approximately 30% more efficient than standard and will give you the full power of the engine at high speeds and after pulling hard through the low gears. 30% lower intake temperatures mean that the car always has that crisp snappy acceleration.
Fitted price--£998.47+VAT
Stage 2- Available for 3.0
As above+ move air intakes to front of engine bay so as not to rob intercooler of airflow.
Fitted price--£1188.20+VAT
Stage 3- Available for 3.0
As 1 and 2 plus carry out internal engine mods,run on a rolling road and carry out a power graph. This will increase power to 380bhp plus increase torque by 10%.
Fitted price--£1995.35
Stage 4- Available for 3.0
As above but more engine mods to bring up to 428bhp.
Price-- Upon request
Stage 5- Available for 3.0
New engine build with big valves to bring up to 500bhp.
Price-- Upon request
Contact Peter, Steve or Mick at
John Noble Motorsport Ltd
Chatsworth Business Park
172 Chatsworth Road
Chesterfield
Derbyshire
S40 2AR
Tel 01246 272749
Fax 01246 272750
email johnnobleengines@aol.com
www.johnnoblemotorsport.co.uk
If anyone has any mods done , let us know how you get on!
Stage 1- Available for both 2.5 and 3.0
The Noble Motorsport designed intercooler is approximately 30% more efficient than standard and will give you the full power of the engine at high speeds and after pulling hard through the low gears. 30% lower intake temperatures mean that the car always has that crisp snappy acceleration.
Fitted price--£998.47+VAT
Stage 2- Available for 3.0
As above+ move air intakes to front of engine bay so as not to rob intercooler of airflow.
Fitted price--£1188.20+VAT
Stage 3- Available for 3.0
As 1 and 2 plus carry out internal engine mods,run on a rolling road and carry out a power graph. This will increase power to 380bhp plus increase torque by 10%.
Fitted price--£1995.35
Stage 4- Available for 3.0
As above but more engine mods to bring up to 428bhp.
Price-- Upon request
Stage 5- Available for 3.0
New engine build with big valves to bring up to 500bhp.
Price-- Upon request
Contact Peter, Steve or Mick at
John Noble Motorsport Ltd
Chatsworth Business Park
172 Chatsworth Road
Chesterfield
Derbyshire
S40 2AR
Tel 01246 272749
Fax 01246 272750
email johnnobleengines@aol.com
www.johnnoblemotorsport.co.uk
If anyone has any mods done , let us know how you get on!
Can the clutch / diff etc, etc take it? New ECU, which will bring at bit more power, slightly higher boost and smoother delivery. Launch Control, which is not exactly essential but sounds good! and shift lights - again, gadget central! Also having a new clutch as I melted mine doing sprints at Millbrook !!! They're having a couple of issues with it at the mo, so I won't be able to give a verdict for another couple of weeks !
continuing the intercooler theme I take back what I said in earlier threads. Temperature indicators fitted to my intercooler show a 30 degree temp drop after just two laps of a short circuit.
Seems it does get the charge cooler. Now how much better would it be with more air flowing?
This is the standard Noble fitted intercooler.
Regards
PauL C
Seems it does get the charge cooler. Now how much better would it be with more air flowing?
This is the standard Noble fitted intercooler.
Regards
PauL C
This defintely supports my discussion from other threads. I'll refrain from much addition. Search my posts if you want.
About intercoolers ...
Its all about air flow .... not size or how cool the design appears to be.
You can get amazing bargains by restoring intercooler from diesel trucks like the Isuzu NPR and some other factory intercooled motors. But, you may consider this too "cheap".
Make sure to pressure test and flow intercoolers for best knowledge and efficiency.
My favorite interocoler manufacturers for air to air and water to air are Spearco and PWR. Quick internet search will find them.
Definitely essential to cool air chage on any car ... and especially on forced induction due to compresson temps.
HTH.
>> Edited by NoLimits on Thursday 9th September 21:17
About intercoolers ...
Its all about air flow .... not size or how cool the design appears to be.
You can get amazing bargains by restoring intercooler from diesel trucks like the Isuzu NPR and some other factory intercooled motors. But, you may consider this too "cheap".
Make sure to pressure test and flow intercoolers for best knowledge and efficiency.
My favorite interocoler manufacturers for air to air and water to air are Spearco and PWR. Quick internet search will find them.
Definitely essential to cool air chage on any car ... and especially on forced induction due to compresson temps.
HTH.
>> Edited by NoLimits on Thursday 9th September 21:17
65'c going in and 35 coming out. Far better than I was expecting. This was this evening 6:30pm in Surrey. Engine properly warmed up.
Other thing I noticed was oil cooler at front of the car (is it an oil cooler?) temperature in same as temperature out. Reason? its not in the air flow. Will move that first thing.
Paul C
Other thing I noticed was oil cooler at front of the car (is it an oil cooler?) temperature in same as temperature out. Reason? its not in the air flow. Will move that first thing.
Paul C
paulcundy said:
65'c going in and 35 coming out. Far better than I was expecting. This was this evening 6:30pm in Surrey. Engine properly warmed up.
I'd say that's really good going! I'd guess at 20c air temp at that time (on average)? To get to within 15c of the ambiant temperature can't be bad.
gotapex said:
Is it possible to get some sort of parts list for those of us in the USA? I'd like to hear what is required to get to 500hp.
This mod list is very intuitive for the most part. I do not know exactly what parts are being used and how for the vuagely moentioned "stages" above where engine building is discussed ... but your quest for 500hp could be available in many routes.
Also, I have a feeling that the 425hp version of the 3 liter will get to 500hp a lot easier than those build stages. It seems that those build stages may be more for the 2.5 and 3.0 that use the t25s and run a max of ~352hp stock .. and that may lack some mods that the M400 rendition may already have done.
I have mentioned a bpu route several times ... where as long as the engine is strong enough (very possible with the m400 version ... and maybe even with the others) ... large gains (maybe even 100 or more hp) are possible by pushing turbos to higher efficient boost level (an intercooler (MANY from PWR and or Spearco availabe in the US .. AND I actually recommend Spearco ... all with flow data and the best designs produced) will help with efficiency as temps increase from more boost/compressed air).
Dyno tune for optimal air/fuel/timing, like mentioned graphs in one of te stages above, and see where a safe and optimal tuning map is for the stock fuel and air and EGTs etc. **Although,
"yellowshed" apparently mentioned that there is some sort of "lock" for the ecu that needs to be accessed to modify maps. I am not sure if this is physical lock .. or electronic code ... or what. I am not sure if you could tap a fuel control such as HKS/APEX-I AFC/HKS AFR/Greddy Emanage into the harness ... and use it properly without having access permission. Should be able to get the access for a car that YOU PAID FOR though. So, it shouldn't be a problem .. and very useful. Also, the next best thing to standalone .. much cheaper .. and possibly useful for this engine ... is the MAP ECU.
Maybe add aftermarket fuel pressure regulator ... many options.
Support increased flow with exhaust and intake. Make a custom heat shield for the intake for a couple bucks and re-route the intake tubes shouldn't be difficult if you want to do it for alleged better intake and intercooler flow and temps.
As for the engine building mentioned in stages above...
Iternal builds of whatever rods and pistons and supporting hardware can be determined by the several shops that I am sure you have looked into for yourself ... gotapex ... and the many all across the country that are modifying the Duratec for diffiernt cars. I am not sure what the market is like. I'd hope there are some aftermarket internals produced to date ... otherwise ... shot peened and cryo treated rods may work ... maybe even stock ones. Coated pistons etc. It can be done and figured out. I woudl think the Durated with twin t3s and AEM standalone would have done this type of research. I'd ask the owners/tuners. Let us know what info you get.
The other work mentioned is bigger valves for headflow. I mentioned head work before. Typical upgrades to heads are porting and polishing ... along with lightweight and ~1mm oversized valves. With a turbocharged motore ... headflow can be a noticeable gain by pants of the seat ... let alone tuning graphs.
I dunno if you will think the prices and quality from Noble are best or not ... but I know many performance shops in our country would LOVE to work with you ... so give em a call and chat away ... or talk to these other owners that you have seen with standalone and turbo upgrades on these motors. I know you're hunting down the resources ... so use em up bud!
Keep us updated. If I find more free time ... you may see me asking questions around the Mazda6 forums ...
. I'll answer questions to the best of knowledge when I learn more. I am not even sure if this engine is the best thing to throw into the Noble chassis ... for my liking ... and I am considering other possibilities ... especially considering price for result ratio etc ... so I am slowy putting in research and contemplation into those areas. Best regards,
Brian
paulcundy said:
Other thing I noticed was oil cooler at front of the car (is it an oil cooler?) temperature in same as temperature out. Reason? its not in the air flow. Will move that first thing.
Paul C
Not exactly sure what you're talking about here .. but I am interested.
Are saying that you measure your oil temps to be cooler?
Are saying that you meaured temps of some unit at the front of the car and the temps were same "in and out"?
What exactly do you mean by "in and out"? Where and how are you measuring? Personal curiousity and enjoyment of discussion and the vehicle make me ask.
The only thing I have seen up front, from pictures (I am not an owner), is the radiator ... I thought.
What exactly are you saying that you "will move that first thing"?
>> Edited by NoLimits on Thursday 9th September 23:40
NoLimits said:
I have mentioned a bpu route several times ... where as long as the engine is strong enough (very possible with the m400 version ... and maybe even with the others) ... large gains (maybe even 100 or more hp) are possible by pushing turbos to higher efficient boost level (an intercooler (MANY from PWR and or Spearco availabe in the US .. AND I actually recommend Spearco ... all with flow data and the best designs produced) will help with efficiency as temps increase from more boost/compressed air).
I've heard about the most boost you can run efficiently (before heat tends to overshadow gains from pressure) on a T25 is roughly 1 to 1.1 bar, and 1.2-1.4 on a T28. Has that been your experience?
gotapex said:
I've heard about the most boost you can run efficiently (before heat tends to overshadow gains from pressure) on a T25 is roughly 1 to 1.1 bar, and 1.2-1.4 on a T28. Has that been your experience?
I haven't really had any experiences with those specific turbos ... but my ct26 on my 7mgte (inline 6) is similar in size. The concept is similar and will give you a good idea of how to answer your own questions about max efficiency.
My experience with many ct26s of mine and of friends over several years ...
Stock boost for the ct26 is 6.8psi. Many people said .. "don't exceed 14-15psi for max boost".
I have run 15psi with stock fuel ... no afpr ... stock elbow (first 6 inches of exhaust opening at only 1 inch inner diamtere ... aka ... work design ever and bad job toyota) ... and only 2.5 inch exhaust with random tech cat and a muffler (previous owner put it on and I havent' changed it on my car) ... and k&n filter with stock air box ... and gained ~80-90+rwhp. I am still runing rich .. EGTs are well within spec ... and I have no reliability issues that are uncommon.
I have helped to modify many setups with this car and turbo.
Friends and I have measured .. that in nearly stock form .. 15psi is generating a lot of heat on the small turbo ... to the extent that without other mods for intake air cooling and fuel ... turning up the boost will not make much more power if any at all ... and potentially loose power due to heat in the intake charge.
If I freed up my exhaust and intake more ... (we use atleast 3 inch ... as I believe corky bell shows is the most efficient gain without getting too large ... even though larger is mostly better for turbo with possibly miniscule torque loss) and added a fuel pump and bumped up fuel pressure (more fuel to mix with more air)... and ran a more efficient intercooler ... (keep intake air temps down to allow the more air to be efficient enough for gains) with better intercooler piping ... I can see even more gains of possibly 30-50rwhp ... yeilding approximately 350rwhp ... running boost from anywhere of 16-19psi. I know several people who have gone this route. What needs to be calculated is the amount of power and heat generated. Monitoring with a wideband 02 sensor (oposed to factory 02 sensors usually being narrow-band)and keeping stock timing would likely be safe .. and adjusting timing could be used at the tuner's discretion in relation to tuning session results in accounting for your mods/your type of driving/the weather/the type of dyno/air/fuel ... and many other variables.
Monitoring EGTs would also be a good thing ... but EGTs only skyrocket to danger zone when a/f/timing is poor ... so wideband monitoring and accurate timing (stock timing should be fine) ... should be fine ... and any quality tuning shop has a wideband in use if you don't want to buy one .. and they have many datalogging and adjustment tools handy.
The next thing that needs to be figured is when the turbo wheels are spinning way to fast to last long if at all ... or when they aren't keeping up with the air flow that you want ... or the turbine cannot keep up with the air that your compressor wheel and engine are thrwoing at it.
At this point, I always recommend consulting with Performance Techniques. www.turbocharged.com .
They specialize in modifying turbos, internally for custom applications .. and matching ad selling turbos that best fit your needs. You can get custom size wheels fitted and modified to fit into your core turbo housing ... essentially upgrading the turbo .. without buying an entire new unit ... and still having a bolt on application ... for reletively cheap.
We typically throw a 60 trim compressor in the ct26 and bore out the hot and cold side housings .... replace seals ... and shaft ... and clip the turbine wheels to desired specs ... all for 450$ shipped.
This gives us a turbo that has been proven to flow up to 150+more rwhp ... derived from stock turbo.
More fuel is needed to keep up (ECU ay be able to automatically adjust .... or you may ned adjusted fuel pressure .. or better flowing pump .. or better flowing injectors) ... and the engine needs to be of sufficient strength internally ... and everything should be in optimum working condition to manage heat and pressure and oil and coolant etc. The 7mgte tends to be stout in stock form to over 500rwhp ... so we generally have nothing to worry about ... structurally ... besides the headgasket (another pitfall of toyota).
Sure, many gains could be made from internal motorwork ... but it isn't necessary.
Now, the same tubro is deemed efficient to 22psi ... and has compressed enough for 440+rwhp. The stock turbine wheel provides for fastest spool up ... (coupled with 3+inch turbo-back exhaust with minimal bends .. possibly with the wastregate dump I mentioned in other posts/threads ... and high flow intake ... ) ... for around 2000-3000rpm or less spool up to full boost .. depending on supporting mods and tune (aforementioned).
Stock injectors (440ccs) in good condition can flow this rate of fuel ... but some upgrade to 550s. Fuel pump and afpr are typical upgrades.
If you don't want to rely on only dyno tuning. You can street tune with your own wideband/boost control/and air fuel control ... for pretty dirt cheap if your source parts well ... but dyno tuning with a pro is usually worth time/moeny for results and personal education.
The most important thing is the tune ... not the bolt ons/mod work and the power. Without proper air/fuel/timing tune ... bad stuff happens .. potentially catastrophic.
But, essentially .. with internal turbo upgrades and fuel to match air ... and flow from exhaust and intake ... you now have a setup that flows over 240rwhp form baseline ... with essentially stock parts unleashed to their full potential.
Similar things are possible with other motors with turbochargers. You need to identify the limits of stock fuel and induction and tune accordingly. Mods can be made to existing turbos to make them flow much more air for reletively cheap.
It should be noted that some people expereince many different results due to their tuning capabilities and many other variables. Some people find problems with reliability due to poor tune or modification quality of parts and or install. Some people's modified setups last seemingly as long as any stock version would or forever ... and some have problems within a very short amount of time.
Generally, the purchase of a part specifically manufactured for certain uses, used within those parameters, will last longer if maintained properly.
However, many people find that their favorite turbo setups ... are hybrids ... with internal turbo modifcations ... because they alow for ceratin power bands and gains that manufactured turbos do not.
Have a chat with the crew at www.turbocharged.com ... aka ... Performance Techniques. They are very reputbale with ct26 upgrades and should have a wealth of information for any turbo.
Call Garret Turbochargers and speak with them about their professional opinions of the t25 and t28 and the t3 that you seem to be interested in. I tell ya ... t3s and t4s are VERY popular for their diversity ... and so are t3/t4 hybrids.
Unfortunately ... my knowledge lacks eveything necessary to play with the math of engine volumetric efficiency and turbo efficiency graphs etc at this time. Many people understand it and I am sure it isn't too difficult ... if you want to source the info and learn ... but I have just never put in the effort because my current uses have not required me to know more.
Generally speaking, the smaller the wheels and larger the engine displacement ... the better spool time. The larger wheels and smaller displacement ... the more lag. Housing sizes are also factors. Ratio of compressor to urbine wheels are factors. Rations of wheels to housing are factors. Then, you have to calculate surge points ... where too much air would back up through the compressor wheel and turn worthless ... and calculate flow rates where the compressor and turbine wheels supply the power you want. This all in aim to supply the power you want, in the power delivery you want, as efficiently as possible in regards to temps and budget and function and reliability. There is a lot of math and physics involved.
I think there is a high possibility that the t25 and t28 turbos can be pushed more ... reliably and efficiently ... but I am not sure. Supporting mods likely (cooling and fuel and maybe bolt ons for intake/exhaust and even exhaust manifold). Research is required. Consult with owners of the engine and of the turbos, and the people who modify and manufacture the engine and the turbos. You seem to be doing a good job at sourcing information. Hope the links and companies I provided help. Please keep us updated.
As far as the motor is concerned, I heard that there is little room for much cylinder boring .,. supposeldy 1mm max .., UNLESS you would want to resleeve the block and then there is supposedly +4mm available. With a custom crank and rods and or pistons ... I hear there is room for good deal of stroking ... (forget exact measurement) which could yeild around 3.5 liters of displacement ... but I am not sure if anyone would want to due the R&D ... or if anyone has yet. Nobody has gone 3.5liters that I know of ... yet.
The mods mentioned in stages from Noble are most likely not boring and stroking the block ... but just replacing with stronger and more heat resistant parts ... and maybe altering compression with pitons and headgasket.
I don't know anything about the limits to the head ... but a local machine shop ... and experieced modifiers of the engine ... could tell you how much room there is for porting and polishing, what type of valve train could fit and or is available and what type of cams may work if you want to change those.
Hope that helps. Wish I knew more.
Just like to stress that the upgrades that John Noble is offering are NOT approved by the factory.
Both the 3R and the M400 have been developed with chassis that are designed to cope with 352 and 425bhp respectively. If either car ends up with more power, then Noble cannot take responsibility for how well-suited standard tyres/dampers/brakes etc are to cope with this, and also how durable the drivetrain will remain.
Needless to say, any existing factory warranty will be void on a car that is upgraded.
Simon Hucknall
Press Officer
Noble Automotive Ltd.
Both the 3R and the M400 have been developed with chassis that are designed to cope with 352 and 425bhp respectively. If either car ends up with more power, then Noble cannot take responsibility for how well-suited standard tyres/dampers/brakes etc are to cope with this, and also how durable the drivetrain will remain.
Needless to say, any existing factory warranty will be void on a car that is upgraded.
Simon Hucknall
Press Officer
Noble Automotive Ltd.
Simon, don't you think you guys at the factory are missing a trick here?
Whilst my 3R was being built we were constantly being told about the 'power upgrades' that would be available - but these never came. I guess they became the M400, which for model separation (read "commercial") reasons put pay to any 3R power hikes.
If there's now a market for upgrading cars out of warranty, surely the factory could offer something here, limited warranties not withstanding.
Whilst my 3R was being built we were constantly being told about the 'power upgrades' that would be available - but these never came. I guess they became the M400, which for model separation (read "commercial") reasons put pay to any 3R power hikes.
If there's now a market for upgrading cars out of warranty, surely the factory could offer something here, limited warranties not withstanding.
goodlife said:
Simon, don't you think you guys at the factory are missing a trick here?
Whilst my 3R was being built we were constantly being told about the 'power upgrades' that would be available - but these never came. I guess they became the M400, which for model separation (read "commercial") reasons put pay to any 3R power hikes.
If there's now a market for upgrading cars out of warranty, surely the factory could offer something here, limited warranties not withstanding.
Hmmm, why should they?! And, to be fair to Noble, they are the only car manufacturer who cover their "bog-standard" product whilst on track (ie: with baffled sump fitment) with no hassle at all - ask Lotus to do that?!
goodlife said:
If there's now a market for upgrading cars out of warranty, surely the factory could offer something here, limited warranties not withstanding.
I think the limited bit would have to be none.
At the Kerridges do, Lee (ok shameless name dropping here) stated that the explosion of track days was unforeseen. I can see that a 500BHP engine thrashed around the track for hours is going to last just that. Hours. Ok, quite a few, more than likely, but just how many will, of course, depend on the driver.
Lee was saying before I joined in that people expected long lifetimes out of everything now. And this I'm guessing will be their problem. Me, I'd happly run 500+ with the knowledge that there's a grenade just behind me, but I'm prepared to take the risk. How many others will, or much worse for Noble, say they will until the day of the big pop, then whine about it...
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