Yep the British Mainstream Motor Industry Deserved To Die.
Discussion
Just watching this on the KDF Wagen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Sq-Yd3D5Y
The kraut's only knew one quality. Peerless. Every part was top notch. Hella, Bosch, ATE, SWF, SKF, Lemmerz, VDO, Hazet etc etc.
Hewn from granite.
Unlike the Marina, Maxi, Allegro et al which the Kafer was heads on with in the late 60's - early 70's.
I've just read that a bloke who PDI'd Leyland excreta in the day discovered why a Marina pulled under braking. It had a drum on one side and a disc set up on the other.
I could weep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Sq-Yd3D5Y
The kraut's only knew one quality. Peerless. Every part was top notch. Hella, Bosch, ATE, SWF, SKF, Lemmerz, VDO, Hazet etc etc.
Hewn from granite.
Unlike the Marina, Maxi, Allegro et al which the Kafer was heads on with in the late 60's - early 70's.
I've just read that a bloke who PDI'd Leyland excreta in the day discovered why a Marina pulled under braking. It had a drum on one side and a disc set up on the other.
I could weep.
Edited by P50 on Saturday 29th December 10:52
The funny thing was that in the 1950s British cars {Rover, Austin, Riley etc} mainly had a pretty good image for quality but in the 60s while overseas cars got much beter and productvity went through the roof British cars got much worse and production became a shambles. A lot of British cars {eg XJ6, Range Rover etc} were good designs poorly assembled and developed, some like the Marina and Allegro were crap designs poorly put together.
I remember when I started work all the shop floor trouble was put down to "boredom from the monotomy of the assembly line" and an industry was created for "job enrichment" and the like which they did not seem to need in Germany. I have not heard anybody complain of boredom at Nissan or Toyoto or indeed in any UK factory for 30 years.
My theory was that in the 60s demand was such that provided you could keep the factory moving you could make money and management made lots of small concessions to the unions to keep the peace which undermined the factory management and led to very poor production. It was also compounded by certain pig headed senior people who thought the UK knew it all { eg I remember at AP Leamington that the Engineering Director dismissed disc brakes as a fad and forbade any work on them until well into the 60s} and missed almost every trend.
Bill
I remember when I started work all the shop floor trouble was put down to "boredom from the monotomy of the assembly line" and an industry was created for "job enrichment" and the like which they did not seem to need in Germany. I have not heard anybody complain of boredom at Nissan or Toyoto or indeed in any UK factory for 30 years.
My theory was that in the 60s demand was such that provided you could keep the factory moving you could make money and management made lots of small concessions to the unions to keep the peace which undermined the factory management and led to very poor production. It was also compounded by certain pig headed senior people who thought the UK knew it all { eg I remember at AP Leamington that the Engineering Director dismissed disc brakes as a fad and forbade any work on them until well into the 60s} and missed almost every trend.
Bill
singlecoil said:
The one thing that the British car industry as a whole couldn't grasp was that all their customers really wanted was a car that would start every time they turned the key, and continue running until the key was turned off.
Nobody really did that in the 70s. What killed the British car industry was government ownership and militant unions. They stopped a lot of the people in the industry from worrying about the poor quality, and while other countries stepped up their game, our companies didn't.davepoth said:
singlecoil said:
The one thing that the British car industry as a whole couldn't grasp was that all their customers really wanted was a car that would start every time they turned the key, and continue running until the key was turned off.
Nobody really did that in the 70s. What killed the British car industry was government ownership and militant unions. They stopped a lot of the people in the industry from worrying about the poor quality, and while other countries stepped up their game, our companies didn't.At that time European motor manufacturers had little to offer that was any better than UK produced cars. Japanese had the right idea, firstly in the 'States - copy what the Yanks had been doing for 20 years - i.e look at what the customer wants and expects for his money - all optional extras as standard - engines and transmissions that would run reliably without being serviced and capable of high mileages. Don't worry too much about rust protection etc (as car were so cheap the Yanks would dump them and replace even more frequently than their own home built cars) - give the cars regular face lifts to encourage existing users to replace. Once it worked in the 'States it was much the same over here in UK, but by now the rust protection issue was sorted, reliability was still legendary. Sadly it look the UK far too long to catch-up although Europe and especially Germany responded and moved the perception of ordinary humble cars upmarket, which they are still doing very successfully, as we know taken our own home grown car identities to new highs (or lows depending on your view!) i.e Mini, Bentley, Rolls Royce for example. How odd that we have gone from the Japanese copying what we did to us in a way copying what they did! - who wants to take a guess on whether the Chinese will now be able to mimic what the Japanese did to the motor industry? - and if it is too late for them even now (with their escalating labour costs)
singlecoil said:
davepoth said:
singlecoil said:
The one thing that the British car industry as a whole couldn't grasp was that all their customers really wanted was a car that would start every time they turned the key, and continue running until the key was turned off.
Nobody really did that in the 70s. What killed the British car industry was government ownership and militant unions. They stopped a lot of the people in the industry from worrying about the poor quality, and while other countries stepped up their game, our companies didn't.SV8Predator said:
singlecoil said:
davepoth said:
singlecoil said:
The one thing that the British car industry as a whole couldn't grasp was that all their customers really wanted was a car that would start every time they turned the key, and continue running until the key was turned off.
Nobody really did that in the 70s. What killed the British car industry was government ownership and militant unions. They stopped a lot of the people in the industry from worrying about the poor quality, and while other countries stepped up their game, our companies didn't.P50 said:
Wow, thanks for that. Only skipped through but glimpsed lots of Porsche stuff and Major Ivan Hearst too. Brill. I'll watch it later. 
heebeegeetee said:
Wow, thanks for that. Only skipped through but glimpsed lots of Porsche stuff and Major Ivan Hearst too. Brill. I'll watch it later.
My pleasure.As for British cars they were simply epic piles of crap.
Now don't get me wrong, we're very good at niche low volume stuff. Car's bought with the heart not head. Mclaren,Morgan,Caterham plus our F1 tech prowess etc.
However the world got very tired of the charm of MG and Triumph sportscars.
I remember being in a friends XJ40 V12 Jag in Manhattan when it was new. The suspension was utterly shot. Fair enough as the roads are appalling there.
The A/C was worse than useless. The oil press light flickered at idle in the baking sun.
Fail.
However whilst the quality of the S3 XJ6 was not terribly good I have a big soft spot for them. I love that sleek shape.
As for saying German quality being not up to much I strongly disagree. The MBtex vinyl in a Merc is far better than any BMC/BL Leather!
The Beetle was a fantastic car for the masses. 20 odd million people thought so.
Yes the Mini too was a good little machine. But was an epic rot box and it was always agg in some way or the other.
Figures from here.
The peak volume shown there in the days of BL (but obviously including ford, Vauxhall etc) was 1.6 M in 1970 and in 2011, mainly foreign owned, was 1.3 M.
Does it actually matter if the manufacturers are foreign? (I have no idea if there's an answer to that!)
The profit goes abroad but so does the loss, they source a lot of components in the UK and the workers spend their money in Tesco, Asda, The Dog and Sprocket, Bill's Sandwich van etc so the industry puts a lot of money into local economys does it make a difference what badge is on the car?
The peak volume shown there in the days of BL (but obviously including ford, Vauxhall etc) was 1.6 M in 1970 and in 2011, mainly foreign owned, was 1.3 M.
Does it actually matter if the manufacturers are foreign? (I have no idea if there's an answer to that!)
The profit goes abroad but so does the loss, they source a lot of components in the UK and the workers spend their money in Tesco, Asda, The Dog and Sprocket, Bill's Sandwich van etc so the industry puts a lot of money into local economys does it make a difference what badge is on the car?
The British motor industry died because we drive on the left, it was the only major market available for the the Japs to expand into and atack without retooling, Bl etc were no worse than any other European company in terms of qualitya at the time, I went with my Dad to buy a new car in the early 70's he bought a Toyota because it had cloth seats and a radio as std, nothing to do with quality, it was marketing my the Japs end off dont believe what you read today.
P50 said:
As for British cars they were simply epic piles of crap.
Now don't get me wrong, we're very good at niche low volume stuff. Car's bought with the heart not head. Mclaren,Morgan,Caterham plus our F1 tech prowess etc.
However the world got very tired of the charm of MG and Triumph sportscars.
I remember being in a friends XJ40 V12 Jag in Manhattan when it was new. The suspension was utterly shot. Fair enough as the roads are appalling there.
The A/C was worse than useless. The oil press light flickered at idle in the baking sun.
Fail.
However whilst the quality of the S3 XJ6 was not terribly good I have a big soft spot for them. I love that sleek shape.
As for saying German quality being not up to much I strongly disagree. The MBtex vinyl in a Merc is far better than any BMC/BL Leather!
The Beetle was a fantastic car for the masses. 20 odd million people thought so.
Yes the Mini too was a good little machine. But was an epic rot box and it was always agg in some way or the other.
I think you're trolling. Now don't get me wrong, we're very good at niche low volume stuff. Car's bought with the heart not head. Mclaren,Morgan,Caterham plus our F1 tech prowess etc.
However the world got very tired of the charm of MG and Triumph sportscars.
I remember being in a friends XJ40 V12 Jag in Manhattan when it was new. The suspension was utterly shot. Fair enough as the roads are appalling there.
The A/C was worse than useless. The oil press light flickered at idle in the baking sun.
Fail.
However whilst the quality of the S3 XJ6 was not terribly good I have a big soft spot for them. I love that sleek shape.
As for saying German quality being not up to much I strongly disagree. The MBtex vinyl in a Merc is far better than any BMC/BL Leather!
The Beetle was a fantastic car for the masses. 20 odd million people thought so.
Yes the Mini too was a good little machine. But was an epic rot box and it was always agg in some way or the other.
The late XJ40 was decently made and very reliable. Mechanically, they run forever. The suspension doesn't wear out faster than any other two tonne V12. The A/C on mine still blows cold after twenty years. In that time it has needed only routine maintenence - nothing has gone wrong other than the oil pressure sender - the actual oil pressure was correct. They do rust like buggers though, but then so do old BMWs.
As for "The MBtex vinyl in a Merc is far better than any BMC/BL Leather!" I mean seriously? Seriously?
I don't have anything against the Beetle, but for much of its life it sold simply because it was cheap.
Berw said:
The British motor industry died because we drive on the left, it was the only major market available for the the Japs to expand into and atack without retooling, Bl etc were no worse than any other European company in terms of qualitya at the time, I went with my Dad to buy a new car in the early 70's he bought a Toyota because it had cloth seats and a radio as std, nothing to do with quality, it was marketing my the Japs end off dont believe what you read today.
"Don't believe what you read" in the post above, it had absolutely nothing to do with us driving on the left.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_automotive_i...
"By 1969, imports (into the USA) had increased their share of the U.S. auto market, with Volkswagen selling 548,904 vehicles, followed by Toyota with 127,018 vehicles."
With 127K LHD vehicles exported to US in 1969, I reckon they had their tooling sorted out.
Take a look at the old movies and TV shows, like The Sweeney, Brannigan, The New Avengers, Get Carter, etc., etc., and play "Spot The Foreign Car In The Background".
The British motor industry was very complacent about what the British car buyers would buy - British!
Ford buyers tended to stick with Ford, Vauxhall buyers with Vauxhall, Rover/Morris/Triumph etc. buyers with whatever the company name was at that particular time, and so on.
The likes of BMW / Mercedes and Audi were far too expensive for the average buyer and the service costs were horrific, with a comparatively poor parts supply, so they weren't even thought about as an option.
The designers of British cars were often handicapped by the staid thinking of the bosses who were too scared to take a risk with more adventurous designs, and when the bosses did allow an amount of flair to be used, it was tempered with severe budget restraints to keep the manufacturing costs down and alterations to the design that destroyed the designers original concept:
For example, Harris Mann's original Princess concept started off as an almost Lotus Eclat looking vehicle:
How about the allegro concept:
A bit sportier than what we eventually got!
And then there were the build quality issues, due to the Company bean counters trying to maximise profits to the nth degree, combined with the "B
ks to the management" attitude of the Unions and the workers who were seeking better pay and conditions, and so were on strike most of the time and doing the job on auto pilot (and sometimes half-arsed), the rest of the time.
Non of this really mattered though because the British car industry had a captive audience, after all - what else were they going to buy? - the Continental offerings were far too expensive to be considered!
Except, they completely failed to see the threat coming from Japan!
Now here's how the Japanese tend to operate. They find a concept they like, look at it, see where the weaknesses are, improve those weaknesses and then sell an improved version which undercuts the rivals pricing.
Cars/motorbikes that leak oil? - build them so they don't leak oil!
Cars/motorbikes that don't start very well? - build them so they start every time!
Trim and fixtures that fall off? - use better fittings!
Poor heaters in cars? - fit better heaters!
No radio as standard? - fit a standard radio!
Then there's the Japanese mentality when it comes to working:
Their thinking is:
"Every day I must do My best to ensure that My Company is the best it can be!"
"I must ensure that My Company's products are the best quality possible!"
"I must ensure that My Company is better than My rivals Company!"
"I will work all the hours I can to help my Company be the best it can be!"
At no point do they ever think: "Bks to the Company!"
The British manufacturers and workers initially failed to see the threat, or take it seriously, but the Japanese products showed the buying public that there was a different way! You didn't have to accept the limited choices any more.
Too many British manufacturers tried to continue on as if nothing had happened, but by the 80's it was already too late. The likes of VW had entered the UK market with high quality products at prices that were not much more expensive than domestic offerings. The Japanese onslaught had continued with more Japanese manufacturers joining in, and then , as salaries for workers increased, the likes of BMW / AUDI and Mercedes were no longer out of reach, if not the brand new cars -then second hand at least!
The quality of the German offerings; the adventurous styling of the French offerings; the value for money of the Japanese offerings; the spirit of the Italian offerings, all played a part in sealing the British manufacturers fate.
Their once dominant market share rapidly declined, but their production ethos' were based around making profits based on the production of hundreds of thousands of cars per week -not the tens of thousands that were now in demand, and so cars were stock piled on airfields (this was to be an issue that affects the car industry to this very day!). Profits shrank, labour became cheaper elsewhere, as did materials, and the British factories became uncompetitive.
The Unions didn't learn the lessons either!
I remember Ford were going to build a big factory up in Scotland, generating thousands of desperately needed jobs. The Unions stepped in with a massive list of demands that would have to be met if Ford wanted to build the plant: "Meet our demands or forget it!" seemed to be the theory.
So Ford looked at the demands and said: "Okay - we'll build the plant in Spain instead!"
The Unions tried to renegotiate a deal, but Ford had seen the possibility of future conflicts with the Unions and said: "No, thanks, we'll set up in Spain, they're more eager to have our plant!"
So did the British Mainstream Motor Industry Deserve To Die?
The way the industry handled the situation - with far too much complacency and a complete lack of foresight - then the harsh answer is yes it did, they shot themselves in the foot!
However, with some more adventurous thinking in design and application, better communications and teamwork between the Bosses and the workforce, by learning lessons when it came to quality, with better business concepts and by putting the customers requirements first, it could have all been so different!
(Note: I am fully aware that this is an abbreviated, simplified version of events and there were far more issues involved, but the basics of what I have posted hold true!)
The British motor industry was very complacent about what the British car buyers would buy - British!
Ford buyers tended to stick with Ford, Vauxhall buyers with Vauxhall, Rover/Morris/Triumph etc. buyers with whatever the company name was at that particular time, and so on.
The likes of BMW / Mercedes and Audi were far too expensive for the average buyer and the service costs were horrific, with a comparatively poor parts supply, so they weren't even thought about as an option.
The designers of British cars were often handicapped by the staid thinking of the bosses who were too scared to take a risk with more adventurous designs, and when the bosses did allow an amount of flair to be used, it was tempered with severe budget restraints to keep the manufacturing costs down and alterations to the design that destroyed the designers original concept:
For example, Harris Mann's original Princess concept started off as an almost Lotus Eclat looking vehicle:
How about the allegro concept:
A bit sportier than what we eventually got!
And then there were the build quality issues, due to the Company bean counters trying to maximise profits to the nth degree, combined with the "B
ks to the management" attitude of the Unions and the workers who were seeking better pay and conditions, and so were on strike most of the time and doing the job on auto pilot (and sometimes half-arsed), the rest of the time.Non of this really mattered though because the British car industry had a captive audience, after all - what else were they going to buy? - the Continental offerings were far too expensive to be considered!
Except, they completely failed to see the threat coming from Japan!
Now here's how the Japanese tend to operate. They find a concept they like, look at it, see where the weaknesses are, improve those weaknesses and then sell an improved version which undercuts the rivals pricing.
Cars/motorbikes that leak oil? - build them so they don't leak oil!
Cars/motorbikes that don't start very well? - build them so they start every time!
Trim and fixtures that fall off? - use better fittings!
Poor heaters in cars? - fit better heaters!
No radio as standard? - fit a standard radio!
Then there's the Japanese mentality when it comes to working:
Their thinking is:
"Every day I must do My best to ensure that My Company is the best it can be!"
"I must ensure that My Company's products are the best quality possible!"
"I must ensure that My Company is better than My rivals Company!"
"I will work all the hours I can to help my Company be the best it can be!"
At no point do they ever think: "B
ks to the Company!"The British manufacturers and workers initially failed to see the threat, or take it seriously, but the Japanese products showed the buying public that there was a different way! You didn't have to accept the limited choices any more.
Too many British manufacturers tried to continue on as if nothing had happened, but by the 80's it was already too late. The likes of VW had entered the UK market with high quality products at prices that were not much more expensive than domestic offerings. The Japanese onslaught had continued with more Japanese manufacturers joining in, and then , as salaries for workers increased, the likes of BMW / AUDI and Mercedes were no longer out of reach, if not the brand new cars -then second hand at least!
The quality of the German offerings; the adventurous styling of the French offerings; the value for money of the Japanese offerings; the spirit of the Italian offerings, all played a part in sealing the British manufacturers fate.
Their once dominant market share rapidly declined, but their production ethos' were based around making profits based on the production of hundreds of thousands of cars per week -not the tens of thousands that were now in demand, and so cars were stock piled on airfields (this was to be an issue that affects the car industry to this very day!). Profits shrank, labour became cheaper elsewhere, as did materials, and the British factories became uncompetitive.
The Unions didn't learn the lessons either!
I remember Ford were going to build a big factory up in Scotland, generating thousands of desperately needed jobs. The Unions stepped in with a massive list of demands that would have to be met if Ford wanted to build the plant: "Meet our demands or forget it!" seemed to be the theory.
So Ford looked at the demands and said: "Okay - we'll build the plant in Spain instead!"
The Unions tried to renegotiate a deal, but Ford had seen the possibility of future conflicts with the Unions and said: "No, thanks, we'll set up in Spain, they're more eager to have our plant!"
So did the British Mainstream Motor Industry Deserve To Die?
The way the industry handled the situation - with far too much complacency and a complete lack of foresight - then the harsh answer is yes it did, they shot themselves in the foot!
However, with some more adventurous thinking in design and application, better communications and teamwork between the Bosses and the workforce, by learning lessons when it came to quality, with better business concepts and by putting the customers requirements first, it could have all been so different!
(Note: I am fully aware that this is an abbreviated, simplified version of events and there were far more issues involved, but the basics of what I have posted hold true!)
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