LS3 TVR resale maths
Discussion
What is the view of the resale value of an LS3/7 powered TVR?
As per a separate thread I am looking to have a TVR Griff or Tamora built with an LS3. Maths suggest this will be a £40k ish exercise for the entire build including car. We all hope that a car will be a keeper however circumstances sometimes dictate we sell.
So, what is the view for resale? Given a good Cobra replica or a good Hot Rod will go for £30k+ and the new CRW Titan is coming in at £70k surely resale and insurance value should be considerably more than the current price for a Griff or Tamora, provided the build is of the highest quality and performed by a recognised company.
Or......is it just a Griff or Tamora with a replacement engine and therefore worth what a well sorted Griff or Tamora should be?
Before the comments come in suggesting it can be done cheaper I don't believe that a top quality job will be done for any less
As per a separate thread I am looking to have a TVR Griff or Tamora built with an LS3. Maths suggest this will be a £40k ish exercise for the entire build including car. We all hope that a car will be a keeper however circumstances sometimes dictate we sell.
So, what is the view for resale? Given a good Cobra replica or a good Hot Rod will go for £30k+ and the new CRW Titan is coming in at £70k surely resale and insurance value should be considerably more than the current price for a Griff or Tamora, provided the build is of the highest quality and performed by a recognised company.
Or......is it just a Griff or Tamora with a replacement engine and therefore worth what a well sorted Griff or Tamora should be?
Before the comments come in suggesting it can be done cheaper I don't believe that a top quality job will be done for any less
Note this is to have the job done properly no corners cut. This would give me a car that is rebuilt and as good as it is ever going to get.
Realistic estimate (IMO) based on the average across a number of companies.
LS3 installation including engine, gearbox, exhaust, propshaft, remapping etc. £20k
Lower and upper wishbones, dampers, bushes, upgraded breaks, hoses, powdercoat chassis etc. £7k
Retrim £4k
Paintork tidy £2k
Plus other items TBD
So with the original car looking at a project cost of £40k+. Resale of original engine etc will reduce price.
A good Cobra replica kit (with all the impracticality) will come in over £33k retail. A good Ford 3 window repro Hot Rod will retail £30k+. A good 1990+ Camaro from the US will be £30k.
On the V8 Cobra, Hot Rod market the one area that reduces the price significantly is the engine. For a Rover V8 you can half the price immediately.
Then you have the Griff 500 SE over £30k. No idea why.
Lastly the pace setter will be the new CRW Titan coming in at £70k.
Realistic estimate (IMO) based on the average across a number of companies.
LS3 installation including engine, gearbox, exhaust, propshaft, remapping etc. £20k
Lower and upper wishbones, dampers, bushes, upgraded breaks, hoses, powdercoat chassis etc. £7k
Retrim £4k
Paintork tidy £2k
Plus other items TBD
So with the original car looking at a project cost of £40k+. Resale of original engine etc will reduce price.
A good Cobra replica kit (with all the impracticality) will come in over £33k retail. A good Ford 3 window repro Hot Rod will retail £30k+. A good 1990+ Camaro from the US will be £30k.
On the V8 Cobra, Hot Rod market the one area that reduces the price significantly is the engine. For a Rover V8 you can half the price immediately.
Then you have the Griff 500 SE over £30k. No idea why.
Lastly the pace setter will be the new CRW Titan coming in at £70k.
Confucius say: Any time you are going to modify a car, be prepared to lose money.
The car will be worth what the market or buyer dictates at that time. Sorry to be so wishy-washy on it, but you just won't get out of it what you put into it. Sorry!
Edit - my magic ball says that a top-notch and perfect inside and out LS3 Tamora would be around £20-25k. Add £5-7k for the T350, and the Sagaris would be no difference from the original prices. Simply put, they just aren't that desirable to the public.
The car will be worth what the market or buyer dictates at that time. Sorry to be so wishy-washy on it, but you just won't get out of it what you put into it. Sorry!
Edit - my magic ball says that a top-notch and perfect inside and out LS3 Tamora would be around £20-25k. Add £5-7k for the T350, and the Sagaris would be no difference from the original prices. Simply put, they just aren't that desirable to the public.
Edited by Don1 on Monday 31st December 14:19
The best Tamoras for sale on PH are less than 19K so theres no way IMHO that anyone would pay double the top price of what a current one fetches no matter what engine or upgrades it has in it.
The Griff that are on the top end of the market are SE version, but if your putting in a different engine etc then its no longer an SE and I beleive its second hand value would reflect this.
I was looking at building a 4x4 Griff and like you getting someone to do the majority of the work for me, likewise my estimates came in around the £40K mark. I think you need to be really sure what you want and why you want it, and also expect to lose alot of money on it if you had to resell it.
The Griff that are on the top end of the market are SE version, but if your putting in a different engine etc then its no longer an SE and I beleive its second hand value would reflect this.
I was looking at building a 4x4 Griff and like you getting someone to do the majority of the work for me, likewise my estimates came in around the £40K mark. I think you need to be really sure what you want and why you want it, and also expect to lose alot of money on it if you had to resell it.
If you want an LS3 in a TVR, do it. It is a great engine and suits TVR's well both in the sound it generates and the grunt it gives you.
But don't expect to get your money back when you come to sell. As TVR's get older it will be the ones close to original that will command the highest premiums. The further from original a car is, the smaller the number of punters that would consider it. Even PH'ers have limits too. Recent comments on here are a great example.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
But don't expect to get your money back when you come to sell. As TVR's get older it will be the ones close to original that will command the highest premiums. The further from original a car is, the smaller the number of punters that would consider it. Even PH'ers have limits too. Recent comments on here are a great example.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I think people would pay a say 10.000,-gbp premium on a well build LS3 converted car.
so if the car in original good state was worth say 10K then you could get about 20K 'easy'
when the car was worth about 15K (say it allready had bigger brakes and good suspension etc) before in a good original state, then say 25K (example)
maybe some will pay more ofcorse (depends on the market), but a 10K plus for such conversion, it must make relatively easy in a good 'original' look car.
so if the car in original good state was worth say 10K then you could get about 20K 'easy'
when the car was worth about 15K (say it allready had bigger brakes and good suspension etc) before in a good original state, then say 25K (example)
maybe some will pay more ofcorse (depends on the market), but a 10K plus for such conversion, it must make relatively easy in a good 'original' look car.
It's always going to be subjective and it's always going to be dictated by the buyers market. There are too many purists that will forever decry and modifications to a factory spec car. And, if a car achives classic status, it will be more valuable as an original model, it's the original after all that made the status. That is the way it is.
That said, if you start with a £20,000 donor car, and spend 12k on an engine change, and then in some years when you come to sell, you find someone who is looking exactly for a LS powered car, there is a chance you'll get that money back. If you spend 12k on a engine swap and everyone is proclaiming you can get it done with your choice of car for 8k, then yours, will obviously be harder to sell.
Unless you find a buyer who loves your exterior colour and you re-trim colours, I don't think the re-trim and paint tidy will add much to the value unless the car was particularly scruffy to begin with. And unless the planets align perfectly and you find TWO buyers who can't wait to build their own, both with cash who love the colours, engine, everything, you will never be able to recoup your outlay, or close to it- IMO.
That said, if you start with a £20,000 donor car, and spend 12k on an engine change, and then in some years when you come to sell, you find someone who is looking exactly for a LS powered car, there is a chance you'll get that money back. If you spend 12k on a engine swap and everyone is proclaiming you can get it done with your choice of car for 8k, then yours, will obviously be harder to sell.
Unless you find a buyer who loves your exterior colour and you re-trim colours, I don't think the re-trim and paint tidy will add much to the value unless the car was particularly scruffy to begin with. And unless the planets align perfectly and you find TWO buyers who can't wait to build their own, both with cash who love the colours, engine, everything, you will never be able to recoup your outlay, or close to it- IMO.
Edited by ChrisPap on Monday 31st December 16:43
SSPPGG said:
if you put 30k on the table today, id part with my ls griff....... but 25 on the table id say no.
If that helps at all
I expected the resale to be in the £30k ballpark. That is in keeping with the Cobra and American custom market. If that helps at all
Spend £40k on an asset worth £30k is not an easy pill to swallow. That being said glad I don’t have a £30k (mid 2000) Arnage…..that is serious depreciation.
Surely if you embark on a project like this you are doing it for yourself, so build it, use it and enjoy it. If after a few years you have to sell and loose some money it will be no different from owning most cars and you will have had a good time in the interviening period.
As for what other people think what does it matter if you have what you want, youre not trying to keep them happy.
Hearing a V8 in a T car sounds odd to me but thats only because I am expecting the speed 6, whos to say what engines would have gone into them if TVR had survived.
As for what other people think what does it matter if you have what you want, youre not trying to keep them happy.
Hearing a V8 in a T car sounds odd to me but thats only because I am expecting the speed 6, whos to say what engines would have gone into them if TVR had survived.
Walford said:
If you turn the old Speed 6 engine into a coffee table it would go up in value year on year
that's what i did and i,v never regretted it
.
Each to their own I suppose, I like the the speed six and have never regretted the change away from my V8 TVRs. At the point when it is in need of some work I will look at the options but am likely to stay with the speed 6 but with an increase in capacity. Will be interesting to try the FFF version at some stage. Dont think I will need any more power than will be offered by the larger capacity 6 in a car that is purely for enjoyment on the road but for those that do am sure the LSx engines are a great option.that's what i did and i,v never regretted it
.
JLF said:
I expected the resale to be in the £30k ballpark. That is in keeping with the Cobra and American custom market.
Spend £40k on an asset worth £30k is not an easy pill to swallow. That being said glad I don’t have a £30k (mid 2000) Arnage…..that is serious depreciation.
I think that Don's prices are about right for the T-cars based on the fact that the LS Chim Jelly car sold for a little under £20K and it didn't sell too quickly.Spend £40k on an asset worth £30k is not an easy pill to swallow. That being said glad I don’t have a £30k (mid 2000) Arnage…..that is serious depreciation.
I also think that your conversion and work costs sound OK apart from the mechanical side wich maybe slightly shy. That gives you maths of say £9K Griff + £33K for work identified + other work + contingency - sale of engine (£3K?) = £45K or say £50K for a T-car. So an immediate sale would be a £25K loss in either case.
Laser Sag said:
Surely if you embark on a project like this you are doing it for yourself, so build it, use it and enjoy it. If after a few years you have to sell and loose some money it will be no different from owning most cars and you will have had a good time in the interviening period.
As for what other people think what does it matter if you have what you want, youre not trying to keep them happy.
Hearing a V8 in a T car sounds odd to me but thats only because I am expecting the speed 6, whos to say what engines would have gone into them if TVR had survived.
Phew Common sense does prevail on PH!As for what other people think what does it matter if you have what you want, youre not trying to keep them happy.
Hearing a V8 in a T car sounds odd to me but thats only because I am expecting the speed 6, whos to say what engines would have gone into them if TVR had survived.
You'll never convert the purists it's each to their own. It's all about what you want. IMO
Despite the cost I am still thinking of doing the LS3 conversion on the Tamora when I was speaking with Top Cats they were asking £20k + vat with high end parts. I've heard other quotes out there of £15k but anyway I'm thinking of doing the conversion within the next 12 months or so but if I decide not because of time then i just might think sod it i'lI just might go for the 4.3 power. If I was mad enough to let some one else do my LS3 conversion then I would expect to loose a lot of money if I had to sell it for the reasons said else where in the thread.
For me I would be doing the conversion for me & not be interested in the next owner as I intend to keep the car a long time but the crowning point of all this really would b that I would keep the speed six & The g/box just in case if in future I had to sell it. I could convert the Tamora back to original spec and Sell the LS3 & tremec separately ...every angles a winner
Have a good NYE!
Buzz
Edited by Buzz Billsberry on Monday 31st December 19:20
Edited by Buzz Billsberry on Monday 31st December 19:28
I can understand the OP's thinking. When I bought my Griff I made sure I bought a car I knew I could get (most) of my money back on. I know TVR's are generally considered to be a heart over head purchase, but everyone is different and some of us can't let go of the part of us that demands common sense.
For what it's worth I think the biggest problem the OP has is his choice of car. Clearly he want's a convertible and that means a Chimaera, Griffith or Tamora. A Chimaera would be financial suicide and to a lesser extent the same is true of the Tamora who's looks divide opinion (I like 'em). That leaves the Griff who's value is based almost entirely on originality and low mileage. Change the engine and it'll lose value because it isn't original, but then gain it because it's a 'better' car. Still not an accountant's dream.
So what would I do? (LOL - like anyone listens to me anyway). If it has to be a convertible and a Tuscan or T350T weren't suitable I'd get a Tamora for about £12k, chuck £15k-ish at it including your SP6 engine of choice and enjoy knowing you have a very special car that is also a sensible financial purchase.
For what it's worth I think the biggest problem the OP has is his choice of car. Clearly he want's a convertible and that means a Chimaera, Griffith or Tamora. A Chimaera would be financial suicide and to a lesser extent the same is true of the Tamora who's looks divide opinion (I like 'em). That leaves the Griff who's value is based almost entirely on originality and low mileage. Change the engine and it'll lose value because it isn't original, but then gain it because it's a 'better' car. Still not an accountant's dream.
So what would I do? (LOL - like anyone listens to me anyway). If it has to be a convertible and a Tuscan or T350T weren't suitable I'd get a Tamora for about £12k, chuck £15k-ish at it including your SP6 engine of choice and enjoy knowing you have a very special car that is also a sensible financial purchase.
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