Engine for Hovercraft?
Discussion
My uncle has owned a Sealand Hovercraft http://www.flickr.com/photos/19759955@N07/37719274... which used to have a RV8 fitted. He changed to a Mazda Diesel (3lt 4cyl) some time ago but found it to be underpowered. Due to other commitments the project was left dormant for some time.
He now wants to resurrect the project but using something more modern.
The criteria is
Diesel
150hp minimum
Easily transplantable (ECU complexities must be possible to overcome)
relatively light (although the current Mazda is probably heavier than the RV8)
I think the ECU issues will be the biggest hurdle, and we would gladly take advice on how immobiliser issues are overcome on modern engines when transplanted out of the donor car.
Any thoughts??
Steve
He now wants to resurrect the project but using something more modern.
The criteria is
Diesel
150hp minimum
Easily transplantable (ECU complexities must be possible to overcome)
relatively light (although the current Mazda is probably heavier than the RV8)
I think the ECU issues will be the biggest hurdle, and we would gladly take advice on how immobiliser issues are overcome on modern engines when transplanted out of the donor car.
Any thoughts??
Steve
I'd say a VW based unit is going to be your best bet. It will have the most resource behind it as far as tech info goes for swaps.
As for how do you install it ? Just get all parts relating to the immobiliser and retain them in the new installation.
For your 150bhp...
From a simplicity point of view, I'd say a fairly basic 1.9tdi engine, then if need be a simple remap to give the power/torque you need. Or perhaps one of the newer 1.9PD engines
Most places just flash a generic file into them anyway, s as long as you retain an OBD plug, they should be able to do it.
Not sure if there are any all alloy units out there with diesels. Subaru's flat4 is, but it would be pricey.
If you're feeling flash as far as ecu tuning goes, Specialist Components have a few diesels running on their ecu's
http://www.twinkam.co.uk/shop/page/8?sessid=7MJCPb...
As for how do you install it ? Just get all parts relating to the immobiliser and retain them in the new installation.
For your 150bhp...
From a simplicity point of view, I'd say a fairly basic 1.9tdi engine, then if need be a simple remap to give the power/torque you need. Or perhaps one of the newer 1.9PD engines
Most places just flash a generic file into them anyway, s as long as you retain an OBD plug, they should be able to do it.
Not sure if there are any all alloy units out there with diesels. Subaru's flat4 is, but it would be pricey.
If you're feeling flash as far as ecu tuning goes, Specialist Components have a few diesels running on their ecu's
http://www.twinkam.co.uk/shop/page/8?sessid=7MJCPb...
Most immobilisers are built into the ecu, so not really.
But maybe some of the reflash guys can do something about it ?
I suggested the smaller lump for weight reasons, or is weight really not an issue ? What about range of engine rpm's needed ?
The V6 lumps seem to be decent, but biggest complaint Ive heard, is they leak serious amounts of oil
Oddly, someone just popped up on a local forum selling 3.0 Jag V6 with gearbox for £450, petrol of course.
If you can find one, I'm led to believe that there is an early Audi 100 with an inline 5 cyl diesel which would have around 150bhp, but is almost totally mechanical.
Ive an old Volvo 940td, but it's a 2.4 straight 6, pretty big and heavy lump, but again totally mechanical. They claim around 120bhp, although a few changes and a bit of boost will son increase that.
Keeping things simple, older engines will be easier than more modern stuff if you can kind a mechanical setup. Maybe an older Mercedes sprinter van or something, or older car ?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/
But maybe some of the reflash guys can do something about it ?
I suggested the smaller lump for weight reasons, or is weight really not an issue ? What about range of engine rpm's needed ?
The V6 lumps seem to be decent, but biggest complaint Ive heard, is they leak serious amounts of oil
Oddly, someone just popped up on a local forum selling 3.0 Jag V6 with gearbox for £450, petrol of course.
If you can find one, I'm led to believe that there is an early Audi 100 with an inline 5 cyl diesel which would have around 150bhp, but is almost totally mechanical.
Ive an old Volvo 940td, but it's a 2.4 straight 6, pretty big and heavy lump, but again totally mechanical. They claim around 120bhp, although a few changes and a bit of boost will son increase that.
Keeping things simple, older engines will be easier than more modern stuff if you can kind a mechanical setup. Maybe an older Mercedes sprinter van or something, or older car ?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/
If you can suffer iron.
An old Isuzu Trooper diesel ? They do some good 3.1 V6 turbodiesels. You should be able to buy an oldish one complete in the vehicle for sensible money.
And the older, the more chance of less electronics crap and immobilisers. Seems to be a good few on egay etc for under £1k.
I think the 3.1 is the better engine, the newer 3.0 was more troublesome.
An old Isuzu Trooper diesel ? They do some good 3.1 V6 turbodiesels. You should be able to buy an oldish one complete in the vehicle for sensible money.
And the older, the more chance of less electronics crap and immobilisers. Seems to be a good few on egay etc for under £1k.
I think the 3.1 is the better engine, the newer 3.0 was more troublesome.
NO idea on engine advice but I'd like to hear more about the project!
Thought from an amateur: I suspect like any aero use the engine is going to be prettily heavily loaded i.e. running at a significant proportion of rated-output for most of the time - that's entirely unlike an engine in a car. Perhaps then weight plays second place to known-good reliability (say in car terms, very high miles capability perhaps). No point having high output if it only delivers for ten mins under load...
Thought from an amateur: I suspect like any aero use the engine is going to be prettily heavily loaded i.e. running at a significant proportion of rated-output for most of the time - that's entirely unlike an engine in a car. Perhaps then weight plays second place to known-good reliability (say in car terms, very high miles capability perhaps). No point having high output if it only delivers for ten mins under load...
Wouldn't you be better looking for something commercial rather than car based - designed for low down torque & hard work.
Also possibly less wiring etc that you don't need.
Lightweight diesel sounds like a big ask though.
How about something else in the mix - a decent lightweight petrol but running on lpg?
Also possibly less wiring etc that you don't need.
Lightweight diesel sounds like a big ask though.
How about something else in the mix - a decent lightweight petrol but running on lpg?
If you're doing it for economy, then doing a few sums before you charge straight in will give worthwhile returns, for example:
What is your propellor / fan load curve look like (speed (rpm) vs power consumed?
What gear ratio do you run between prop and engine ?
What is the minimum load point that makes the craft move (enough lift to get off the ground persumably)?
How do all those interelated factors result in an engine operating area that can be optimised for fuel economy? For example, a large gasoline engine runing at wide open throttle (low pumping losses) at low speed (low friction) at lamba 1 (or leaner) could well provide a better BSFC than a diesel engine at high rpm, needing to run rich to avoid metling it's exhaust line etc etc!
What is your propellor / fan load curve look like (speed (rpm) vs power consumed?
What gear ratio do you run between prop and engine ?
What is the minimum load point that makes the craft move (enough lift to get off the ground persumably)?
How do all those interelated factors result in an engine operating area that can be optimised for fuel economy? For example, a large gasoline engine runing at wide open throttle (low pumping losses) at low speed (low friction) at lamba 1 (or leaner) could well provide a better BSFC than a diesel engine at high rpm, needing to run rich to avoid metling it's exhaust line etc etc!
stevieturbo said:
Most immobilisers are built into the ecu, so not really.
But maybe some of the reflash guys can do something about it ?
I suggested the smaller lump for weight reasons, or is weight really not an issue ? What about range of engine rpm's needed ?
The V6 lumps seem to be decent, but biggest complaint Ive heard, is they leak serious amounts of oil
Oddly, someone just popped up on a local forum selling 3.0 Jag V6 with gearbox for £450, petrol of course.
If you can find one, I'm led to believe that there is an early Audi 100 with an inline 5 cyl diesel which would have around 150bhp, but is almost totally mechanical.
Ive an old Volvo 940td, but it's a 2.4 straight 6, pretty big and heavy lump, but again totally mechanical. They claim around 120bhp, although a few changes and a bit of boost will son increase that.
Keeping things simple, older engines will be easier than more modern stuff if you can kind a mechanical setup. Maybe an older Mercedes sprinter van or something, or older car ?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&But maybe some of the reflash guys can do something about it ?
I suggested the smaller lump for weight reasons, or is weight really not an issue ? What about range of engine rpm's needed ?
The V6 lumps seem to be decent, but biggest complaint Ive heard, is they leak serious amounts of oil
Oddly, someone just popped up on a local forum selling 3.0 Jag V6 with gearbox for £450, petrol of course.
If you can find one, I'm led to believe that there is an early Audi 100 with an inline 5 cyl diesel which would have around 150bhp, but is almost totally mechanical.
Ive an old Volvo 940td, but it's a 2.4 straight 6, pretty big and heavy lump, but again totally mechanical. They claim around 120bhp, although a few changes and a bit of boost will son increase that.
Keeping things simple, older engines will be easier than more modern stuff if you can kind a mechanical setup. Maybe an older Mercedes sprinter van or something, or older car ?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/
I would avoid the Audi 5 cylinder diesel like the plague especially engine code AAT. OK the injection pump is a classical jerk-pump as the Americans call them but it is electronically controlled. These engines also have TWO timing belts and it looks as if they are really a converted petrol engine. As to the timing its all done on tapered drives! Kaput Durch Teknik as I call them.
If one looks at Lancing Marine's catalogues several marine conversions of vehicle engines are shown. What is noteworthy is how small the horsepower is when a continuous rating is desired. For the larger boats tractor engines are used.
Would it be possible to use two Peugeot 405 1.9 engines in tandem? The non-turbo gives about 70HP and the turbo about 90 HP. I don't know much about modern diesels except that Common Rail is very problematic. The crazy horsepowers seem to come from heavy turbocharging and the fact that higher revolutions are possible than with a jerk pump. Synthetic oil and an oil cooler are of course essential. Steyr and Zoche have produced lightweight diesels but the costs were very high.
There is an enlarged Land Rover 300TDi engine which is made in Brazil. About 130 HP is achieved. It is known that the Isuzu 2.8 diesels whilst very good do not produce sufficient grunt to lift a Fox 7 metre cabin cruiser properly onto the plane. For good results 180 to 200HP are needed to get the boat out of the hole. The GM 6.2 V8 non-turbo diesel is no use in this respect as it is very heavy but makes only as much (or less) power as 4 cylinder 2.8 turbo diesel - absolutely disgusting! The greatly improved 6.5 turbo version of the antique 6.2 is vastly superior but the prices are superior too!
Many of the builders vans now have 150HP but the engines are drive-by-wire common rail. The solution might be to buy a complete rusted-out van and carefully salvage the electronics as well as the engine. Engines bought at scrap-yards will only be any use as anchors since without all the wiring and ECUs they are just scrap! The 2.5 litre LDV Maxus engine will produce 100KW so that should lift the hovercraft. Snag is that its a 16 valve DOHC with drive-by-wire. A Perkins 4.108 is much simpler but with only about 40HP it just won't do the job.
What is interesting is that in its hey-day the 4.108 was a tremendous breakthrough in marine diesel engines as previous engines were infamous for their vast bulk and weight. Many engines of relatively modest horsepower would weigh a ton or more!
Good luck!
Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff