Lupo starting issue.. any ideas?
Discussion
Already asked this on a Lupo members forum but not really had much help from them, so i'm turning to the PH masses for advice.
I run around in a 1999 1.4 16v VW Lupo. I have an intermittent starting fault. Can't really see a pattern to it but it does seem to happen more often after running the car up until warm, then switching off and trying to restart before it's cooled, although thats not always the case. I've had the issue when cold, first thing in the morning too. The car runs 100% perfectly the rest of the time, its just on the odd 1 out of 10 attempt to start it, it wont.
Basically, you put the key in, all the lights go out on the dash and you try to start the car. The starter will just spin the engine and it doesnt even try to start. Most of the time, you just stop, take the key out, put it back in and it starts immediately but sometimes it takes a few goes.
Now, first thing I thought was imobiliser but I eventually realised that when the starter was spinning the engine, if I pumped the throttle pedal, it would eventually start, idle roughly for about 30 seconds and then settle and run perfectly.
So I read the fault codes to see if it gave me any clues...
00282 Throttle valve positioner (V60)
Output open, intermittent
01176 Key
not authorized, intermittent
The first, according to the Lupo owners forum, is a non issue and wouldnt stop the car from starting. The second is an immobliser fault. A few people suggested the key may be faulty so Ive been using a spare but the problem is still there sometimes.
SO I'm stumped what to look at.
Not sure on the immobiliser being at fault as it shouldnt start at all... Keys seem fine... What should I look at next? Last thing I want to do is just throw money at it replacing parts but the fault codes arent helping so I'm a little lost.
Any ideas?
I run around in a 1999 1.4 16v VW Lupo. I have an intermittent starting fault. Can't really see a pattern to it but it does seem to happen more often after running the car up until warm, then switching off and trying to restart before it's cooled, although thats not always the case. I've had the issue when cold, first thing in the morning too. The car runs 100% perfectly the rest of the time, its just on the odd 1 out of 10 attempt to start it, it wont.
Basically, you put the key in, all the lights go out on the dash and you try to start the car. The starter will just spin the engine and it doesnt even try to start. Most of the time, you just stop, take the key out, put it back in and it starts immediately but sometimes it takes a few goes.
Now, first thing I thought was imobiliser but I eventually realised that when the starter was spinning the engine, if I pumped the throttle pedal, it would eventually start, idle roughly for about 30 seconds and then settle and run perfectly.
So I read the fault codes to see if it gave me any clues...
00282 Throttle valve positioner (V60)
Output open, intermittent
01176 Key
not authorized, intermittent
The first, according to the Lupo owners forum, is a non issue and wouldnt stop the car from starting. The second is an immobliser fault. A few people suggested the key may be faulty so Ive been using a spare but the problem is still there sometimes.
SO I'm stumped what to look at.
Not sure on the immobiliser being at fault as it shouldnt start at all... Keys seem fine... What should I look at next? Last thing I want to do is just throw money at it replacing parts but the fault codes arent helping so I'm a little lost.
Any ideas?
Receiver coil was suggested but everything on google seems to suggest it would cut out when driving too, which it doesnt. Plus the fact it starts if you pump the pedal (like trying to start a flooded engine, it stinks of fuel once it does start...) it starts indicates its not a problem with the immobiliser.
What do you mean by throttle pot?
What do you mean by throttle pot?
^ certainly a possibility
Another suggestion is the ignition barrel itself being worn out or the switch which switches power from the accessories (at turn 2) to sending 12v+ to starter = ECU (at final turn stage).
The switch is only £10 or so but fitting is a bit of a faff.
If you start with the real basics though...
1) FUEL - are the injectors getting the required fuel pressure/rate - are you losing fuel pressure whilst the car is not in use hence lots of turning the engine over is required to generate the necessary pressure again. Once started does the car run right - is it suffering hesitation/poor running consistent with a lack of fuel?
2) Electric - is the battery turning the engine over at a decent pace? if you crank the engine over with the lights on do they go really dim?
Another suggestion is the ignition barrel itself being worn out or the switch which switches power from the accessories (at turn 2) to sending 12v+ to starter = ECU (at final turn stage).
The switch is only £10 or so but fitting is a bit of a faff.
If you start with the real basics though...
1) FUEL - are the injectors getting the required fuel pressure/rate - are you losing fuel pressure whilst the car is not in use hence lots of turning the engine over is required to generate the necessary pressure again. Once started does the car run right - is it suffering hesitation/poor running consistent with a lack of fuel?
2) Electric - is the battery turning the engine over at a decent pace? if you crank the engine over with the lights on do they go really dim?
aka_kerrly said:
1) FUEL - are the injectors getting the required fuel pressure/rate - are you losing fuel pressure whilst the car is not in use hence lots of turning the engine over is required to generate the necessary pressure again. Once started does the car run right - is it suffering hesitation/poor running consistent with a lack of fuel?
2) Electric - is the battery turning the engine over at a decent pace? if you crank the engine over with the lights on do they go really dim?
1. When it wont start itself and needs the throttle pumped, it runs poor for about 20-30 seconds but then settles into a perfect idle and drives perfectly. starts and runs perfectly the rest of the time.2) Electric - is the battery turning the engine over at a decent pace? if you crank the engine over with the lights on do they go really dim?
2. Battery seems fine. Turns over the engine fine.
Inclined to think it may be a fuel problem. As you suggest, maybe fuel pressuer and neesd the throttle pumped to get fuel into the injectors etc. It then starts, idles rubbish for a 20 seconds or so and then runs fine. Pumping the throttle doesnt get it to burst into life, it really needs coaxing to get going.. It loses idle if you dont rev it a little first... but then any other time, it starts perfectly on the key.
MysteryLemon said:
Receiver coil was suggested but everything on google seems to suggest it would cut out when driving too, which it doesnt.
Not sure that's the case. My Discovery has all the ignition barrel pins removed, so it's possible to remove the key whilst the engine is running and to start it with a screwdriver. The car won't start unless a key is near to the receiver coil, but once it's running it won't stop even if you wander off with the key. I guess this is so that if a fault develops with the coil whilst doing 70 on the motorway, you don't just lose power. I guess so.
How comes it can start by pumping the pedal then? Surely it just wouldnt start if the coil didnt recognise the key? Plus why does it seem to only really happen once the car has warmed up? Think its only not started on the drive in the morning once.
Also, please dont take these replies as me doubting what you say... I'm not! Just trying to get my head around how it all works...
How comes it can start by pumping the pedal then? Surely it just wouldnt start if the coil didnt recognise the key? Plus why does it seem to only really happen once the car has warmed up? Think its only not started on the drive in the morning once.
Also, please dont take these replies as me doubting what you say... I'm not! Just trying to get my head around how it all works...
If the throttle position sensor (what I called a pot before) has gone mad, it could be telling the ECU that you're trying to start with WOT, in which case it'll overfuel like buggery.
Either way, you need to have a crack at sorting something, replace the throttle sensor and see if you can see something wrong with the immob coil.
Either way, you need to have a crack at sorting something, replace the throttle sensor and see if you can see something wrong with the immob coil.
Have the same fault on 2000 1.4 16v lupo .
Did you get to the route of problem?
had previous issue with the ignition switch where the starter didn’t turn at all , and now working again. fixed itself.
so switch maybe failing on another circuit also? Changed and was not the case tho needed replacing anyway.
Replaced the HT coil and plugs no change, and problem is exactly as you describe to the T.
ty
updated.
ECU made no fault codes and ECU pins where clean was was about to clean map sensor below dip stick and noticed vac pipe adj and under air inlet pipe while pipes removed was shot.
Fuel reg pipe.
Must have been purely the vac holding it on at one end giving enough fuel , but with the intermittence and hardly any misfire , once started.
If no report back..
Fixed.
Did you get to the route of problem?
had previous issue with the ignition switch where the starter didn’t turn at all , and now working again. fixed itself.
so switch maybe failing on another circuit also? Changed and was not the case tho needed replacing anyway.
Replaced the HT coil and plugs no change, and problem is exactly as you describe to the T.
ty
Edited by lupo303 on Monday 2nd March 17:57
updated.
ECU made no fault codes and ECU pins where clean was was about to clean map sensor below dip stick and noticed vac pipe adj and under air inlet pipe while pipes removed was shot.
Fuel reg pipe.
Must have been purely the vac holding it on at one end giving enough fuel , but with the intermittence and hardly any misfire , once started.
If no report back..
Fixed.
Edited by lupo303 on Wednesday 4th March 20:36
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