Neck Support Collars

[Varn]

Hi All,

I have a track day coming up and will be wearing a full face helmet. I can't imagine this additional weight and shape was thought of when the car's safety systems were designed.

Will a neck support collar offer additional protection? I'm in a car with standard seats and 3 point harnesses, so a HANS device is out of the question.

[ohtari]

If you're referring the foam "Donuts" you see some people wearing, it's purely a comfort thing. They only support the weight of the helmet going around corners/under braking, and offer no protection at all in a crash. If you're running a car with a three point and an air bag, you'd be better off with just an open face helmet. Open face because the airbag can sometimes catch the chin of a full face, forcing your head up.

But most of all, forget about the dangers and just go and have fun!

[Codswallop]

ohtari said:

If you're referring the foam "Donuts" you see some people wearing, it's purely a comfort thing. They only support the weight of the helmet going around corners/under braking, and offer no protection at all in a crash.

I always thought it would help reduce unwanted neck movement in a crash, reducing risk of injury. Is that not the case?

[ohtari]

Codswallop said:

ohtari said:

If you're referring the foam "Donuts" you see some people wearing, it's purely a comfort thing. They only support the weight of the helmet going around corners/under braking, and offer no protection at all in a crash.

I always thought it would help reduce unwanted neck movement in a crash, reducing risk of injury. Is that not the case?

Unfortunately so. The forces involved far exceed the compression resistance of the foam. It's why HANS, Necksgen, Hybrid and the like are made from fairly chunky polymers/composites. The type of injury that these devices are designed for are tensile injuries, where the neck stretches under load and can result in basal skull fractures. With the foam braces, they do nothing to stop this movement, they just support the muscles when under (low) g-loads.

OP, if you're serious about getting some sort of neck brace, and are willing to spend some money, have a look at the Simpsons devices, some such as the R3 can be used without a harness. But be warned, the prices aren't pretty

[Varn]

Appreciate the knowledgeable and quick responses - this is why I love Pistonheads

Following the above posts I'll be renting one of those lovely open face helmets as it's only for 1 TD.

Edited by Varn on Wednesday 16th January 10:34

[GC8]

ohtari said:

Unfortunately so. The forces involved far exceed the compression resistance of the foam. It's why HANS, Necksgen, Hybrid and the like are made from fairly chunky polymers/composites. The type of injury that these devices are designed for are tensile injuries, where the neck stretches under load and can result in basal skull fractures. With the foam braces, they do nothing to stop this movement, they just support the muscles when under (low) g-loads.

OP, if you're serious about getting some sort of neck brace, and are willing to spend some money, have a look at the Simpsons devices, some such as the R3 can be used without a harness. But be warned, the prices aren't pretty

Surely some lateral protection is better than none?

[drakart]

You will find that an open face is worse in an accident. A full face helmet normally hits your chest and stops, but an open face doesn't. I rally in an open face and wear a hans device due to the amount of forward neck movement available in them.
The donut style neck protection is really designed for karting. They are designed to take the sting out of bumps from the rear to stop you getting a whiplash injury whilst racing. It would do almost nothing in a big shunt.

Are you seriousy worried about having a shunt on a trackday? I would either change your driving style or not passenger with anyone that has previous!

[ohtari]

GC8 said:

Surely some lateral protection is better than none?

Technically yes, but it's like using a fire extinguisher on an oil rig fire. It might help, but it's going well and beyond what they're designed for. You're not too likely to get whiplash injuries in a car anyway, with the helmet decreasing the distance between you and the headrest, there's very little room for the "head flick" that gives you whiplash.

[ohtari]

drakart said:

You will find that an open face is worse in an accident. A full face helmet normally hits your chest and stops, but an open face doesn't. I rally in an open face and wear a hans device due to the amount of forward neck movement available in them.
The donut style neck protection is really designed for karting. They are designed to take the sting out of bumps from the rear to stop you getting a whiplash injury whilst racing. It would do almost nothing in a big shunt.

Are you seriousy worried about having a shunt on a trackday? I would either change your driving style or not passenger with anyone that has previous!

Don't be counting on that though, by the time your head has hit your chest, your head's velocity will be significant.

Check these videos out OP, showing the difference between HANS and no HANS (I actually think there's better devices out there, but that's neither here nor there)

First, no HANS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K-nQIuiatw

Second, with HANS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RinuSRqMaM

Notice how the head is prevented from moving too far forward? That's the protection you want, and what could save your life.

[GC8]

ohtari said:

GC8 said:

Surely some lateral protection is better than none?

Technically yes, but it's like using a fire extinguisher on an oil rig fire. It might help, but it's going well and beyond what they're designed for. You're not too likely to get whiplash injuries in a car anyway, with the helmet decreasing the distance between you and the headrest, there's very little room for the "head flick" that gives you whiplash.

Lateral = side to side, something that a HANS cant really deal with, but still the cause of injury.

[ohtari]

GC8 said:

ohtari said:

GC8 said:

Surely some lateral protection is better than none?

Technically yes, but it's like using a fire extinguisher on an oil rig fire. It might help, but it's going well and beyond what they're designed for. You're not too likely to get whiplash injuries in a car anyway, with the helmet decreasing the distance between you and the headrest, there's very little room for the "head flick" that gives you whiplash.

Lateral = side to side, something that a HANS cant really deal with, but still the cause of injury.

I know, I'm doing my dissertation on "side impact protection in head and neck support devices"

The whiplash part was meant to be directed to the other post.

[GC8]

I was a little surprised by that!

[Varn]

drakart said:

You will find that an open face is worse in an accident. A full face helmet normally hits your chest and stops, but an open face doesn't. I rally in an open face and wear a hans device due to the amount of forward neck movement available in them.
The donut style neck protection is really designed for karting. They are designed to take the sting out of bumps from the rear to stop you getting a whiplash injury whilst racing. It would do almost nothing in a big shunt.

Are you seriousy worried about having a shunt on a trackday? I would either change your driving style or not passenger with anyone that has previous!

Open face is worse in a car with airbags? That seens contratictory to a post above.

I never said I was seriously worried. I have never been a passenger on a track day, so why do I need to change my driving style? Being concerned with having some sort of impact doesn't mean my driving style needs changing. Oh, I've got a good idea, I'll change my driving style and not need to wear a helmet or seatbelts either...tt

[pthelazyjourno]

Varn said:

Open face is worse in a car with airbags? That seens contratictory to a post above.

I never said I was seriously worried. I have never been a passenger on a track day, so why do I need to change my driving style? Being concerned with having some sort of impact doesn't mean my driving style needs changing. Oh, I've got a good idea, I'll change my driving style and not need to wear a helmet or seatbelts either...tt

Think his point was that unless you drive like a knobber, you really shouldn't be having an accident on track. Go to one that's run by a respectable club and they're significantly safer than driving on the roads.

Unless you're very unlucky or driving outside your limits you're unlikely to come a cropper IME. Obviously nothing wrong with considering making things as safe as possible, but seems a little overkill.

[src1971]

ohtari said:

You're not too likely to get whiplash injuries in a car anyway, with the helmet decreasing the distance between you and the headrest, there's very little room for the "head flick" that gives you whiplash.

I had an accident at Mallory a few years ago (whilst wearing a helmet) which resulted in whiplash for 3 months. I was told by medical staff that a foam ring would've reduced that time period (obviously it wouldn't have prevented the injury completely).

[ohtari]

src1971 said:

ohtari said:

You're not too likely to get whiplash injuries in a car anyway, with the helmet decreasing the distance between you and the headrest, there's very little room for the "head flick" that gives you whiplash.

I had an accident at Mallory a few years ago (whilst wearing a helmet) which resulted in whiplash for 3 months. I was told by medical staff that a foam ring would've reduced that time period (obviously it wouldn't have prevented the injury completely).

Ouch, sorry to hear that, you must have had quite a shunt!

If you don't mind me asking, who was it that told you this? I know the manufactures (sparco, to point fingers) claim that they reduce the risk of whiplash, but funnily enough they haven't released test data to prove their point. I'm not going to say they're lying, but I'm quite sceptical about the quality of their "experts".

I can include research of this in my dissertation, so I'm going to dig deep into this. But I don't expect any real answers.

[drakart]

Varn said:

drakart said:

You will find that an open face is worse in an accident. A full face helmet normally hits your chest and stops, but an open face doesn't. I rally in an open face and wear a hans device due to the amount of forward neck movement available in them.
The donut style neck protection is really designed for karting. They are designed to take the sting out of bumps from the rear to stop you getting a whiplash injury whilst racing. It would do almost nothing in a big shunt.

Are you seriousy worried about having a shunt on a trackday? I would either change your driving style or not passenger with anyone that has previous!

Open face is worse in a car with airbags? That seens contratictory to a post above.

I never said I was seriously worried. I have never been a passenger on a track day, so why do I need to change my driving style? Being concerned with having some sort of impact doesn't mean my driving style needs changing. Oh, I've got a good idea, I'll change my driving style and not need to wear a helmet or seatbelts either...tt

Hang on a second. You posted a question which wouldn't be asked by someone of any experience. I can only assume it is your first time on track.

I have tried to help you using my knowledge of racing/rallying/trackdays, with and without Hans and with open and closed face helmets. All of a sudden you turn aggressive and act like you already know "the answer".
It is a fact that an open face helmet gives no limitation to the forward movement of your neck. If it is weight that you are looking at, a cheap rented open face helmet will weigh more than my closed face helmet. If you've ever been hit by an airbag then you will know that it is like getting kicked in the face. I would personally prefer a full face.

As has already been commented, it's perfectly reasonable to question why you might think you need more protection than a helmet. It sounds like you could do with an instructor to boost your confidence.

Perhaps you are just having a bad day, but to act like that on a subject you clearly know little about is not really in the spirit of things is it? If people spend time to help you, I suggest that a decent response is, "thank you".

[src1971]

ohtari said:

src1971 said:

ohtari said:

You're not too likely to get whiplash injuries in a car anyway, with the helmet decreasing the distance between you and the headrest, there's very little room for the "head flick" that gives you whiplash.

I had an accident at Mallory a few years ago (whilst wearing a helmet) which resulted in whiplash for 3 months. I was told by medical staff that a foam ring would've reduced that time period (obviously it wouldn't have prevented the injury completely).

Ouch, sorry to hear that, you must have had quite a shunt!

If you don't mind me asking, who was it that told you this? I know the manufactures (sparco, to point fingers) claim that they reduce the risk of whiplash, but funnily enough they haven't released test data to prove their point. I'm not going to say they're lying, but I'm quite sceptical about the quality of their "experts".

I can include research of this in my dissertation, so I'm going to dig deep into this. But I don't expect any real answers.

This was the physio who treated me (and has been treating me ever since for the last 10 yrs!). The front offside corner of my car hit the tyre wall at about 80mph which may have meant the headrest of the seat didn't offer that much protection as I would have rebounded at a bit of an angle? The paramedic who saw the crash said I was lucky to be alive and I was rushed to hospital with a suspected broken neck.

Fortunately there was no break but it took 5-6 days for the whiplash to become evident (I thought I'd got away with it!). Someone I used to race with had a similar accident at Mallory 2 months after this (was in a faster car so maybe travelling 10mph faster) and was killed instantly . I have just been left with a couple of prolapsed discs which in comparison is blessing.

Edit: the car was a full MSA compliant race car (Alfa)

[Varn]

drakart said:

Varn said:

drakart said:

You will find that an open face is worse in an accident. A full face helmet normally hits your chest and stops, but an open face doesn't. I rally in an open face and wear a hans device due to the amount of forward neck movement available in them.
The donut style neck protection is really designed for karting. They are designed to take the sting out of bumps from the rear to stop you getting a whiplash injury whilst racing. It would do almost nothing in a big shunt.

Are you seriousy worried about having a shunt on a trackday? I would either change your driving style or not passenger with anyone that has previous!

Open face is worse in a car with airbags? That seens contratictory to a post above.

I never said I was seriously worried. I have never been a passenger on a track day, so why do I need to change my driving style? Being concerned with having some sort of impact doesn't mean my driving style needs changing. Oh, I've got a good idea, I'll change my driving style and not need to wear a helmet or seatbelts either...tt

Hang on a second. You posted a question which wouldn't be asked by someone of any experience. I can only assume it is your first time on track.

I have tried to help you using my knowledge of racing/rallying/trackdays, with and without Hans and with open and closed face helmets. All of a sudden you turn aggressive and act like you already know "the answer".
It is a fact that an open face helmet gives no limitation to the forward movement of your neck. If it is weight that you are looking at, a cheap rented open face helmet will weigh more than my closed face helmet. If you've ever been hit by an airbag then you will know that it is like getting kicked in the face. I would personally prefer a full face.

As has already been commented, it's perfectly reasonable to question why you might think you need more protection than a helmet. It sounds like you could do with an instructor to boost your confidence.

Perhaps you are just having a bad day, but to act like that on a subject you clearly know little about is not really in the spirit of things is it? If people spend time to help you, I suggest that a decent response is, "thank you".

“Are you seriousy worried about having a shunt on a trackday? I would either change your driving style or not passenger with anyone that has previous!” Before you start lecturing about posting etiquette, perhaps you shouldn’t submit ones such as this.

Why wouldn’t it be asked by someone that has track time? Please explain this.

Also, please explain why you believe this is a confidence problem.

I’m not worried about getting kicked in the face, I’m interested in the neck area. If a closed face helmet is going to be more dangerous to the neck with frontal airbag deployment than an open face, I’d prefer to use one of those.

If it aids to your response(s); I’m used to wearing a 30 degree HANS with a closed face helmet.