Is it just me...?
Discussion
Or is an E60 M5 actually not that great to drive?
I've just reacquainted myself with it, and it's lovely inside, and the knobs all do kewl stuff, but the semi-auto is a pig in town, and not that fast out of town, and there's no feel to it.
You go from 20mph to XXX mph jolly quickly, but it's not that much fun getting there. And in this weather, it's just traction control da/da/da/da-da-da-da/da/da constantly. And the sound! Well, what sound? V10s should sound terrific, not muted.
Amazing piece of technology, but to drive it is so much less fun than my old E36 M3 that it surprises me quite a lot. And compared to my Carrera, it's simply chalk and cheese - the Carrera is faster and more fun.
RIght, fireproof pants at the ready!
DIsclaimer: I have owned at least 15 BMWs, including 5 M series cars, and have driven pretty much all of them, except the F10.
I've just reacquainted myself with it, and it's lovely inside, and the knobs all do kewl stuff, but the semi-auto is a pig in town, and not that fast out of town, and there's no feel to it.
You go from 20mph to XXX mph jolly quickly, but it's not that much fun getting there. And in this weather, it's just traction control da/da/da/da-da-da-da/da/da constantly. And the sound! Well, what sound? V10s should sound terrific, not muted.
Amazing piece of technology, but to drive it is so much less fun than my old E36 M3 that it surprises me quite a lot. And compared to my Carrera, it's simply chalk and cheese - the Carrera is faster and more fun.
RIght, fireproof pants at the ready!
DIsclaimer: I have owned at least 15 BMWs, including 5 M series cars, and have driven pretty much all of them, except the F10.
You need to get used to it to enjoy it. Trick is to never use auto mode and set it up to match your style and driving ability. No point being in P500S S6 all the time if you are a nervous driver. Auto is not needed and it does more harm than good in my opinion. M5 is by far the best car ive owned so far.
ecain63 said:
You need to get used to it to enjoy it. Trick is to never use auto mode and set it up to match your style and driving ability. No point being in P500S S6 all the time if you are a nervous driver. Auto is not needed and it does more harm than good in my opinion. M5 is by far the best car ive owned so far.
Assume I'm not a nervous driver. (I'll avoid willy waving, but my login name is a giveaway). Notwithstanding what you said, it doesn't answer my points that it's just not that good in many ways. Ballistic in a straight line, amazing poise and grip for 2 tonnes of teuton metal, but just not that exciting to drive. The previous E39 V8 was much more fun in my opinion. The E60 is too much like a video game. You press the pedal and magically you're going faster. It just didn't involve you at all getting there.Maybe I do need to get used to it, but in the two different days I've borrowed one, it's been frankly a massive disappointment. Best fun I've had recently was a day with an E30 318iS, and a day in an NSX. Wowser.
RtdRacer said:
ecain63 said:
You need to get used to it to enjoy it. Trick is to never use auto mode and set it up to match your style and driving ability. No point being in P500S S6 all the time if you are a nervous driver. Auto is not needed and it does more harm than good in my opinion. M5 is by far the best car ive owned so far.
Assume I'm not a nervous driver. (I'll avoid willy waving, but my login name is a giveaway). Notwithstanding what you said, it doesn't answer my points that it's just not that good in many ways. Ballistic in a straight line, amazing poise and grip for 2 tonnes of teuton metal, but just not that exciting to drive. The previous E39 V8 was much more fun in my opinion. The E60 is too much like a video game. You press the pedal and magically you're going faster. It just didn't involve you at all getting there.Maybe I do need to get used to it, but in the two different days I've borrowed one, it's been frankly a massive disappointment. Best fun I've had recently was a day with an E30 318iS, and a day in an NSX. Wowser.
ecain63 said:
No finger pointing or assumptions intended. I came from a 508bhp / 550lbft C5 RS6 to the E61 M5 and i initially had the same feelings you do. 3 months later after having gotten used to the paddles and cars balance the car went from being a zero to a hero. Id suggest a couple of test drives are not enough to write it off as a bore. In a day or so you can, as youve said, discover its rocket potential. The rest comes with practice and learning.
OK, thanks - I will try harder tomorrow. :-)RtdRacer said:
Or is an E60 M5 actually not that great to drive?
I've just reacquainted myself with it, and it's lovely inside, and the knobs all do kewl stuff, but the semi-auto is a pig in town, and not that fast out of town, and there's no feel to it.
You go from 20mph to XXX mph jolly quickly, but it's not that much fun getting there. And in this weather, it's just traction control da/da/da/da-da-da-da/da/da constantly. And the sound! Well, what sound? V10s should sound terrific, not muted.
Amazing piece of technology, but to drive it is so much less fun than my old E36 M3 that it surprises me quite a lot. And compared to my Carrera, it's simply chalk and cheese - the Carrera is faster and more fun.
RIght, fireproof pants at the ready!
DIsclaimer: I have owned at least 15 BMWs, including 5 M series cars, and have driven pretty much all of them, except the F10.
Well you said it, in Auto mode it's awful, it was an afterthought to slot it in and the car needs to be driven in Manual mode (flappy paddle or gearstick lever). I use flappy paddle all the time and you are right in the wet with normal 400 mode the traction does tend to kick in but I drive most of the time in M P500 mode. I can now hold a slide in it easily in the wet in a nice controlled manner and that's the beauty of the M mode, it allows you some degree of traction loss but will allow the aids to kick in if if feels the car is getting a little bit out of shape. P500 S6 (traction off) is really only for the hardcore and experience who want to have some drifting fun and no aids. I've just reacquainted myself with it, and it's lovely inside, and the knobs all do kewl stuff, but the semi-auto is a pig in town, and not that fast out of town, and there's no feel to it.
You go from 20mph to XXX mph jolly quickly, but it's not that much fun getting there. And in this weather, it's just traction control da/da/da/da-da-da-da/da/da constantly. And the sound! Well, what sound? V10s should sound terrific, not muted.
Amazing piece of technology, but to drive it is so much less fun than my old E36 M3 that it surprises me quite a lot. And compared to my Carrera, it's simply chalk and cheese - the Carrera is faster and more fun.
RIght, fireproof pants at the ready!
DIsclaimer: I have owned at least 15 BMWs, including 5 M series cars, and have driven pretty much all of them, except the F10.
I didn't get on well with the car much for a month or so but once I got into it I love it. I suggest you try again!!!
Doubt the Carrera is faster too, maybe through the twisties but there are not many cars that can make the M5 look slow.
turn the traction control off and nail it to the redline with the right gearbox & suspension settings and the E60 M5 is just as involving as the E36 M3 (I still have my M3).... but a hell of a lot faster.
Traction control you need to put it in m mode as its massivelly better than the normal setting.
There is not doubt the M5 isnt a sports car... its a very very fast saloon car.
Traction control you need to put it in m mode as its massivelly better than the normal setting.
There is not doubt the M5 isnt a sports car... its a very very fast saloon car.
Contigo said:
Well you said it, in Auto mode it's awful, it was an afterthought to slot it in and the car needs to be driven in Manual mode (flappy paddle or gearstick lever). I use flappy paddle all the time and you are right in the wet with normal 400 mode the traction does tend to kick in but I drive most of the time in M P500 mode. I can now hold a slide in it easily in the wet in a nice controlled manner and that's the beauty of the M mode, it allows you some degree of traction loss but will allow the aids to kick in if if feels the car is getting a little bit out of shape. P500 S6 (traction off) is really only for the hardcore and experience who want to have some drifting fun and no aids.
I didn't get on well with the car much for a month or so but once I got into it I love it. I suggest you try again!!!
Doubt the Carrera is faster too, maybe through the twisties but there are not many cars that can make the M5 look slow.
Oh, it's fast alright - that's not my gripe. Just not that much fun. :-)I didn't get on well with the car much for a month or so but once I got into it I love it. I suggest you try again!!!
Doubt the Carrera is faster too, maybe through the twisties but there are not many cars that can make the M5 look slow.
Having never been a 911 fan, and going from Imprezas, Saab Aero, 535i, 5 M3s in a row, then Cerbera V8, then XKR, I finally thought I'd better try a 911. And it was a revelation. I never thought much would tempt me firmly away from M series Bimmers for a protracted stretch, but if you've never tried one, do. The rear end traction is simply amazing - you can see why they've sold millions of them - they really are that good. And now you can get a nice water cooled 996 with an interior that doesn't look like someone from Stuttgart sneezed controls all over it for sub £10K...
On a similar note, I was lucky enough to drive an NSX once. For only 280bhp, it makes you feel like Ayrton Senna - that engine! That noise!
As others have said, manual mode is the way to go. Auto is a a dog. 'M' button pressed on mine before it's out of the garage.
The sound is great, but not at idle. It needs to be revved, or the throttle blipped at lower speeds on a downshift.
Which carrera do you have? I've had 3 porsches including a 3.6 996C2 some years ago, and a boxster 3.4S fairly recently. The V10 sounds better and goes (much) harder than both. It handles well for its weight, but it's never going to handle as crisply or be as chuckable as something 500kg lighter from Stuttgart, so depends what you're looking for.
Gary.
The sound is great, but not at idle. It needs to be revved, or the throttle blipped at lower speeds on a downshift.
Which carrera do you have? I've had 3 porsches including a 3.6 996C2 some years ago, and a boxster 3.4S fairly recently. The V10 sounds better and goes (much) harder than both. It handles well for its weight, but it's never going to handle as crisply or be as chuckable as something 500kg lighter from Stuttgart, so depends what you're looking for.
Gary.
RtdRacer said:
Having never been a 911 fan, and going from Imprezas, Saab Aero, 535i, 5 M3s in a row, then Cerbera V8, then XKR, I finally thought I'd better try a 911. And it was a revelation. I never thought much would tempt me firmly away from M series Bimmers for a protracted stretch, but if you've never tried one, do. The rear end traction is simply amazing - you can see why they've sold millions of them - they really are that good. And now you can get a nice water cooled 996 with an interior that doesn't look like someone from Stuttgart sneezed controls all over it for sub £10K...
I guess I'm in the opposite camp from you. From loving Porsches since a teenager, I'm now pretty much an //M convert. From my experience, my BMW's have been better engineered, have better engines, and the whole warranty/dealer experience doesn't leave me with a sour taste. I could be tempted back, but probably only for a GT3 or classic.Gary.
Hedgeman said:
As others have said, manual mode is the way to go. Auto is a a dog. 'M' button pressed on mine before it's out of the garage.
The sound is great, but not at idle. It needs to be revved, or the throttle blipped at lower speeds on a downshift.
Which carrera do you have? I've had 3 porsches including a 3.6 996C2 some years ago, and a boxster 3.4S fairly recently. The V10 sounds better and goes (much) harder than both. It handles well for its weight, but it's never going to handle as crisply or be as chuckable as something 500kg lighter from Stuttgart, so depends what you're looking for.
Gary.
That - 3.6 996C2. The V10 is faster in a straight line, but sound wise? I beg to differ - the flat howl of the porsche engine is lovely - the V10 sounds strangled. The sound is great, but not at idle. It needs to be revved, or the throttle blipped at lower speeds on a downshift.
Which carrera do you have? I've had 3 porsches including a 3.6 996C2 some years ago, and a boxster 3.4S fairly recently. The V10 sounds better and goes (much) harder than both. It handles well for its weight, but it's never going to handle as crisply or be as chuckable as something 500kg lighter from Stuttgart, so depends what you're looking for.
Gary.
The other thing about the E60 is that either you leave all the driver aids on, or you drive around s
tting yourself constantly because it's so easy to provoke out of shape. I can push the 996 much harder before it starts to get tricky.It's an astonishing car to be sure, but I'd rather spend the money on a 911 and an L322. :-)
RtdRacer said:
Hedgeman said:
As others have said, manual mode is the way to go. Auto is a a dog. 'M' button pressed on mine before it's out of the garage.
The sound is great, but not at idle. It needs to be revved, or the throttle blipped at lower speeds on a downshift.
Which carrera do you have? I've had 3 porsches including a 3.6 996C2 some years ago, and a boxster 3.4S fairly recently. The V10 sounds better and goes (much) harder than both. It handles well for its weight, but it's never going to handle as crisply or be as chuckable as something 500kg lighter from Stuttgart, so depends what you're looking for.
Gary.
That - 3.6 996C2. The V10 is faster in a straight line, but sound wise? I beg to differ - the flat howl of the porsche engine is lovely - the V10 sounds strangled. The sound is great, but not at idle. It needs to be revved, or the throttle blipped at lower speeds on a downshift.
Which carrera do you have? I've had 3 porsches including a 3.6 996C2 some years ago, and a boxster 3.4S fairly recently. The V10 sounds better and goes (much) harder than both. It handles well for its weight, but it's never going to handle as crisply or be as chuckable as something 500kg lighter from Stuttgart, so depends what you're looking for.
Gary.
The other thing about the E60 is that either you leave all the driver aids on, or you drive around s
tting yourself constantly because it's so easy to provoke out of shape. I can push the 996 much harder before it starts to get tricky.It's an astonishing car to be sure, but I'd rather spend the money on a 911 and an L322. :-)
Hedgeman said:
RtdRacer said:
sound wise? I beg to differ - the flat howl of the porsche engine is lovely - the V10 sounds strangled.
Does your C2 have PSE? Mine didn't, something I regret a little, so that could make a difference. I find M5s to be less interesting to drive than M3s , just my opinion, as straight line performance has limited appeal to me. When i said on here i choose an M3 over an F10 though i suspect many thought i was an idiot and people commented that financial reasons would be only reason to go for the 3..
think it depends what you are used to and what floats your boat, for many the speed kicks from an M5 is enough
think it depends what you are used to and what floats your boat, for many the speed kicks from an M5 is enough
I agree completely with your comments on the 911. They really are stunning driver's cars and people really need to drive them to understand what steering and brake feel really mean. 
I had a 996 C4 for over 8 years. I'm a big fan of BMW's though (had M3's in the past and have a E93 335i now). At some point I'll be going back to 911's though - hopefully the 997 GTS/ GT3 (WHAT fantastic cars!!).
I had a 996 C4 for over 8 years. I'm a big fan of BMW's though (had M3's in the past and have a E93 335i now). At some point I'll be going back to 911's though - hopefully the 997 GTS/ GT3 (WHAT fantastic cars!!).
RtdRacer said:
Oh, it's fast alright - that's not my gripe. Just not that much fun. :-)
Having never been a 911 fan, and going from Imprezas, Saab Aero, 535i, 5 M3s in a row, then Cerbera V8, then XKR, I finally thought I'd better try a 911. And it was a revelation. I never thought much would tempt me firmly away from M series Bimmers for a protracted stretch, but if you've never tried one, do. The rear end traction is simply amazing - you can see why they've sold millions of them - they really are that good. And now you can get a nice water cooled 996 with an interior that doesn't look like someone from Stuttgart sneezed controls all over it for sub £10K...
On a similar note, I was lucky enough to drive an NSX once. For only 280bhp, it makes you feel like Ayrton Senna - that engine! That noise!
Having never been a 911 fan, and going from Imprezas, Saab Aero, 535i, 5 M3s in a row, then Cerbera V8, then XKR, I finally thought I'd better try a 911. And it was a revelation. I never thought much would tempt me firmly away from M series Bimmers for a protracted stretch, but if you've never tried one, do. The rear end traction is simply amazing - you can see why they've sold millions of them - they really are that good. And now you can get a nice water cooled 996 with an interior that doesn't look like someone from Stuttgart sneezed controls all over it for sub £10K...
On a similar note, I was lucky enough to drive an NSX once. For only 280bhp, it makes you feel like Ayrton Senna - that engine! That noise!
One is a 200mph GT car capable of carrying 5 adults with a full boot of lugage. The other is a 2+2 sports coupé designed more as a sports than GT car.
But I would like to think I agree somewhat. I am a fan of less is more where it comes to electronics. This is part driven by budget but also part by the fact I don't want to feel removed from the driving experience. I am sure the E60 is a fantastic car capable of far more than I can throw at it but I prefer manual over electroic control and feel hence e39 on my drive. I will freely admit I would like a crack in an f10 but the outlay on PHP is not something I particularly want to go with and I also don't want some electronic synthisised exhaust pumped into the cabin. So finances on the table I decided to go for the cheapest M5 option not based on the money but purely on the fact I've got a DSP button that is on or off, thats it.
Having owned muscle cars I like things this way, what I would like though is a bit more slip in the DSP if I am honest, I want it there but I would appreciate a little more brown pant moment before the computer reminds me I am not a driving god.
I guess this translates into your theory on the e60? The box in auto or otherwise doesn't appeal to me. Having had both full autos (lovely for crusing but not for driving) and flappy paddles it is just the untangable feeling of a manual box that makes me feel much more part of the experience than flicking a paddle. Manuals have their days numbered, autos or flappy paddles are so good now but you are just a machine to press the go/stop buttons and the left right turn device. Some folks prefer digital, I prefer analogue and I guess the 996 is more towards the latter (even if it is for balding middle aged paunched accountants that ride Harleys in the summer
)
But I would like to think I agree somewhat. I am a fan of less is more where it comes to electronics. This is part driven by budget but also part by the fact I don't want to feel removed from the driving experience. I am sure the E60 is a fantastic car capable of far more than I can throw at it but I prefer manual over electroic control and feel hence e39 on my drive. I will freely admit I would like a crack in an f10 but the outlay on PHP is not something I particularly want to go with and I also don't want some electronic synthisised exhaust pumped into the cabin. So finances on the table I decided to go for the cheapest M5 option not based on the money but purely on the fact I've got a DSP button that is on or off, thats it.
Having owned muscle cars I like things this way, what I would like though is a bit more slip in the DSP if I am honest, I want it there but I would appreciate a little more brown pant moment before the computer reminds me I am not a driving god.
I guess this translates into your theory on the e60? The box in auto or otherwise doesn't appeal to me. Having had both full autos (lovely for crusing but not for driving) and flappy paddles it is just the untangable feeling of a manual box that makes me feel much more part of the experience than flicking a paddle. Manuals have their days numbered, autos or flappy paddles are so good now but you are just a machine to press the go/stop buttons and the left right turn device. Some folks prefer digital, I prefer analogue and I guess the 996 is more towards the latter (even if it is for balding middle aged paunched accountants that ride Harleys in the summer
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