Electronic boost controllers
Discussion
What do you know? Any advice for my particular application? Do you know where I can read more impartial info? Best kind?
I've always thought them to be a bit chav and don't really relish the idea of some gismo with flashing lights sat on my dash somewhere (probably put it in the glove box) but I think I have a need to control the boost by whichever gear I am in.
The problem is, FWD car with too much power (resulting in wheel spin, torque steer etc), so I'm thinking of lowering the boost to different and lower levels in 1, 2 and 3rd gear, I'll probably make better progress and scare myself/other people less.
This is really the only feature I would be interested in, do they do this part really well and how do they know what gear I'm in?
I've always thought them to be a bit chav and don't really relish the idea of some gismo with flashing lights sat on my dash somewhere (probably put it in the glove box) but I think I have a need to control the boost by whichever gear I am in.
The problem is, FWD car with too much power (resulting in wheel spin, torque steer etc), so I'm thinking of lowering the boost to different and lower levels in 1, 2 and 3rd gear, I'll probably make better progress and scare myself/other people less.
This is really the only feature I would be interested in, do they do this part really well and how do they know what gear I'm in?
I used to have a VR6 Turbo that was a handful. 392hp & 350lbft. Not even a Quaife ATB helped that much.
Most of the time I tried to use my right foot to control traction but ultimately, the only thing that tamed it effectively, was: http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en/other-prod...
If you want gear dependant boost, you'll need something like the super expensive TurboSmart eBoost, or the AEM TruBoost (I think that's what it was called). I think they use a clutch switch and / or meters covered vs rpm calculation, so will probably also need a wheel speed input. I reckon some of the popular jap tuning forums will have heap big info on this.
I did try this for closed loop boost control (to get rid of spikes) and it worked really well - http://www.gizzmoelectronics.co.uk/Product_MSIBC.h...
Or if you're running a standalone, they sometimes come with traction and boost control, although most only accept digital speed sensors, so the factory ABS sensors won't work. You can get little filter circuits to convert VR to Hall though. Never tried them personally, so can't comment any further.
Most of the time I tried to use my right foot to control traction but ultimately, the only thing that tamed it effectively, was: http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en/other-prod...
If you want gear dependant boost, you'll need something like the super expensive TurboSmart eBoost, or the AEM TruBoost (I think that's what it was called). I think they use a clutch switch and / or meters covered vs rpm calculation, so will probably also need a wheel speed input. I reckon some of the popular jap tuning forums will have heap big info on this.
I did try this for closed loop boost control (to get rid of spikes) and it worked really well - http://www.gizzmoelectronics.co.uk/Product_MSIBC.h...
Or if you're running a standalone, they sometimes come with traction and boost control, although most only accept digital speed sensors, so the factory ABS sensors won't work. You can get little filter circuits to convert VR to Hall though. Never tried them personally, so can't comment any further.
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Monday 14th January 11:05
There is nothing chav about them when used correctly.
As for true boost by gear, choices are somewhat limited. And you need to sort out a triggering method to let the controller know which gear you are in, unless you opt for a very very expensive unit which can calculate via engine rpm and a road speed input. Which again you need to wire into the controller.
I think the Apexi AVCR can do it, but that controller is a nightmare.
Turbosmart's E-Boost2 can do it, but gear selection is decided based on a variety of switch inputs. So you'd need to hook these up to your gearstick or similar, and think it only offers 4 settings.
Really...for such an application, you're better off with a decent ecu which can control everything
As for true boost by gear, choices are somewhat limited. And you need to sort out a triggering method to let the controller know which gear you are in, unless you opt for a very very expensive unit which can calculate via engine rpm and a road speed input. Which again you need to wire into the controller.
I think the Apexi AVCR can do it, but that controller is a nightmare.
Turbosmart's E-Boost2 can do it, but gear selection is decided based on a variety of switch inputs. So you'd need to hook these up to your gearstick or similar, and think it only offers 4 settings.
Really...for such an application, you're better off with a decent ecu which can control everything
http://www.gb-ent.com/cars/index.php/engine-and-tu...
This offers boost by rpm, which can assist with traction by softening the power delivery, yet retaining full power at high rpms
I see mention here of an Innovate boost controller that may offer the feature...MSBC-1, but cant actually find anywhere selling it. Unless it has been discontinued or something
http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/Boost%20B...
You also need to be careful of some of the Yank stuff offering boost by gear. As most are intended for drag racing, they do not offer true boost by gear. They simple count up gears based on a switch input. So it assumes you only ever want to go from 1 thru top gear each and every time, which is nothing like boost by gear at all for a normal car.
This offers boost by rpm, which can assist with traction by softening the power delivery, yet retaining full power at high rpms
I see mention here of an Innovate boost controller that may offer the feature...MSBC-1, but cant actually find anywhere selling it. Unless it has been discontinued or something
http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/Boost%20B...
You also need to be careful of some of the Yank stuff offering boost by gear. As most are intended for drag racing, they do not offer true boost by gear. They simple count up gears based on a switch input. So it assumes you only ever want to go from 1 thru top gear each and every time, which is nothing like boost by gear at all for a normal car.
Edited by stevieturbo on Monday 14th January 11:16
stevieturbo said:
I think the Apexi AVCR can do it, but that controller is a nightmare.
It certainly is. I had one for a short while and sold it. I was told that once it's setup, it's pretty much unbeatable but I lacked the patience and just bought a cheaper, simpler unit. I sold it to an Evo owning mate and he found it complicated too!One thing I did discover is the boost control valve choice can affect how it works. For example, I tried VAG's N75 valve with my DTA S80 and it was problematic. Then I tried a more substantial valve like this - http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=222 and got better results, but it still wasn't to my complete satisfaction, so just stuck with the Racelogic TC which I have to say, works superbly.
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Monday 14th January 12:43
SuperchargedVR6 said:
It certainly is. I had one for a short while and sold it. I was told that once it's setup, it's pretty much unbeatable but I lacked the patience and just bought a cheaper, simpler unit. I sold it to an Evo owning mate and he found it complicated too!
One thing I did discover is the boost control valve choice can affect how it works. For example, I tried VAG's N75 valve with my DTA S80 and it was problematic. Then I tried a more substantial valve like this - http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=222 and got better results, but it still wasn't to my complete satisfaction, so just stuck with the Racelogic TC which I have to say, works superbly.
I'm using the DTA to control boost with my supercharged setup, for boost by gear. Although I need to use a 4 port solenoid ( MAC )One thing I did discover is the boost control valve choice can affect how it works. For example, I tried VAG's N75 valve with my DTA S80 and it was problematic. Then I tried a more substantial valve like this - http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=222 and got better results, but it still wasn't to my complete satisfaction, so just stuck with the Racelogic TC which I have to say, works superbly.
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Monday 14th January 12:43
It's working pretty well so far. But the balance between traction and power really is a difficult one.
And oddly, actual acceleration doesnt seem to change that much even with huge traction loss at the touch of a pedal.
The right foot works very well.
But automated power reduction via boost does make for a much much safer car. ( TCS cant cope that well either, but again does add safety )
I can't see why a boost controller would be classed as chav?
But irrelevantly to answer your question the only controllers I know of that can limit/control boost gear dependant to be the apexi avcr and the tru boost by AEM.
I have used the AVCR and it really is an amazing bit of kit due to the features it has over most other controllers, but they are a little confusing to program and set up until you get used to it. For the money though they are brilliant imo.
I have used a few AEM products but never a boost controller, but if its anything like their wideband then Im sure it will be up to the job too
But irrelevantly to answer your question the only controllers I know of that can limit/control boost gear dependant to be the apexi avcr and the tru boost by AEM.
I have used the AVCR and it really is an amazing bit of kit due to the features it has over most other controllers, but they are a little confusing to program and set up until you get used to it. For the money though they are brilliant imo.
I have used a few AEM products but never a boost controller, but if its anything like their wideband then Im sure it will be up to the job too
Honestherbert said:
I can't see why a boost controller would be classed as chav?
But irrelevantly to answer your question the only controllers I know of that can limit/control boost gear dependant to be the apexi avcr and the tru boost by AEM.
I have used the AVCR and it really is an amazing bit of kit due to the features it has over most other controllers, but they are a little confusing to program and set up until you get used to it. For the money though they are brilliant imo.
I have used a few AEM products but never a boost controller, but if its anything like their wideband then Im sure it will be up to the job too
AEM's own data says it has two boost settings and makes no mention anywhere about a gear based setup or speed or anything like it ?But irrelevantly to answer your question the only controllers I know of that can limit/control boost gear dependant to be the apexi avcr and the tru boost by AEM.
I have used the AVCR and it really is an amazing bit of kit due to the features it has over most other controllers, but they are a little confusing to program and set up until you get used to it. For the money though they are brilliant imo.
I have used a few AEM products but never a boost controller, but if its anything like their wideband then Im sure it will be up to the job too
Their blurb about the solenoid is rather amusing....especially as it's the same MAC solenoid most controllers use.
AEM said:
AEM’s boost control solenoid (included) is the only one specifically manufactured for automotive boost applications, which means it won’t corrode and stick from exposure to rich fuel mixtures,
It's surprising really, but there seem to be very few controllers out there that can actually do proper boost by gear.Hi have a turbo smart eboost2 it is a very good but of kit but I bought it thinking it would do gear dependent boost control but in reality it can't as previously mentioned you can have 4 set points changed by earthing 2 wires in sequence it was far to difficult to get working on my h pattern box.
I couldn't find any other controllers that did it properly at the time either
I have just bought a Haltech ecu that can do it so have finally got what I wanted 5 years ago lol
Si
I couldn't find any other controllers that did it properly at the time either
I have just bought a Haltech ecu that can do it so have finally got what I wanted 5 years ago lol
Si
toger13 said:
Hi have a turbo smart eboost2 it is a very good but of kit but I bought it thinking it would do gear dependent boost control but in reality it can't as previously mentioned you can have 4 set points changed by earthing 2 wires in sequence it was far to difficult to get working on my h pattern box.
I couldn't find any other controllers that did it properly at the time either
I have just bought a Haltech ecu that can do it so have finally got what I wanted 5 years ago lol
Si
EBoost 2 can do it, but as you say it's bloody awkward requiring 4 switches to identify the gears.I couldn't find any other controllers that did it properly at the time either
I have just bought a Haltech ecu that can do it so have finally got what I wanted 5 years ago lol
Si
Why they couldnt just slap a wheel speed input into the controller and calculate gears based on gearing, rpm and wheel pulses is anyones guess.
Well...that isnt a complaint directed at them, but at all makers of boost controllers.
But then for the price of a very expensive boost controller...you could pretty much buy a standalone ecu that would do it. Even if you only used it for boost control lol
Even the fancy controllers like AMS and Boost leash dont do it. Mainly because they are solely aimed at 1/4 mile usage.
stevieturbo said:
EBoost 2 can do it, but as you say it's bloody awkward requiring 4 switches to identify the gears.
Why they couldnt just slap a wheel speed input into the controller and calculate gears based on gearing, rpm and wheel pulses is anyones guess.
Well...that isnt a complaint directed at them, but at all makers of boost controllers.
But then for the price of a very expensive boost controller...you could pretty much buy a standalone ecu that would do it. Even if you only used it for boost control lol
Even the fancy controllers like AMS and Boost leash dont do it. Mainly because they are solely aimed at 1/4 mile usage.
Thanks for yours (and everyones) replies, I'll plow through them in more detail when I have more time!Why they couldnt just slap a wheel speed input into the controller and calculate gears based on gearing, rpm and wheel pulses is anyones guess.
Well...that isnt a complaint directed at them, but at all makers of boost controllers.
But then for the price of a very expensive boost controller...you could pretty much buy a standalone ecu that would do it. Even if you only used it for boost control lol
Even the fancy controllers like AMS and Boost leash dont do it. Mainly because they are solely aimed at 1/4 mile usage.
Just to answer your quote above, I found the Eboost2 manual here:
http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/prod_imgs/ins...
Careful, it's a PDF and sizeable.
It doesn't show any gear related hardware, are you saying you have to buy it separately?
My first thoughts on using wheel speed sensors are that if you get wheel spin it's going to mess things up and remember, these things can be used on 4wd...
Evoluzione said:
Thanks for yours (and everyones) replies, I'll plow through them in more detail when I have more time!
Just to answer your quote above, I found the Eboost2 manual here:
http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/prod_imgs/ins...
Careful, it's a PDF and sizeable.
It doesn't show any gear related hardware, are you saying you have to buy it separately?
My first thoughts on using wheel speed sensors are that if you get wheel spin it's going to mess things up and remember, these things can be used on 4wd...
Page 23 of the manual. It's explained very poorly. You configure the manual switches to the 4 set points. So your gear lever or some other system tells the EBoost via N/O or N/C to earth contacts which you basically assign to the gears.Just to answer your quote above, I found the Eboost2 manual here:
http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/prod_imgs/ins...
Careful, it's a PDF and sizeable.
It doesn't show any gear related hardware, are you saying you have to buy it separately?
My first thoughts on using wheel speed sensors are that if you get wheel spin it's going to mess things up and remember, these things can be used on 4wd...
Basically...a pile of crap in that respect, as trying to hook up lots of switches to the gearstick or similar is a load of balls.
So whilst it can do a boost by gear setup offering 4 different levels, to say it is a proper boost by gear setup is pushing the description to the extreme.
Electronic boost controllers are great... I use mine to allow me to run a much smaller spring pressure in the wastegate then I can set target boost depending on throttle and rpm positions via the ecu... The more advanced ecu will allow gear dependant boost control but really it's not needed if you control the power delivery as I have done.
I cap the boost low down to keep torque lower and then increase the boost higher up to keep torque curve flat... Means power progressively rises and makes traction easier to balance.
I cap the boost low down to keep torque lower and then increase the boost higher up to keep torque curve flat... Means power progressively rises and makes traction easier to balance.
stevieturbo said:
Even the fancy controllers like AMS and Boost leash dont do it. Mainly because they are solely aimed at 1/4 mile usage.
NLR's AMS-1000 will do it, but requires a voltage input for gear position. The gear position voltages can be learnt/configured.. The SSB chaps use them an awful lot and heavily rely on per gear boost maps..slinky said:
NLR's AMS-1000 will do it, but requires a voltage input for gear position. The gear position voltages can be learnt/configured.. The SSB chaps use them an awful lot and heavily rely on per gear boost maps..
As with the E-boost2, that creates complexities for anyone other than those with a sequential gearbox which will have a 0-5v out. And the price of the AMS is rather high no matter how good it may be.You could buy a full standalone ecu with boost by gear that will do everything and run the engine for almost the same cost as the AMS on it's own.
Nobody that I am aware of makes a sensibly priced standalone EBC that offers true ( and easy ) boost by gear other than the Apexi really. And even it probably isnt made anymore. At least it simply operates via speed/rpm input and you tell it the gear ratios so it can calculate which gear you are in.
Its surprising really...it should be a very easy feature to add to most EBC's
Although as Andy says, from a traction point of view, simply ramping boost via rpm can be very effective, and some EBC's will do that no problem.
You may lose that big rush of torque as boost builds at lower rpm...doesnt always mean that rush makes the car faster though.
stevieturbo said:
Although as Andy says, from a traction point of view, simply ramping boost via rpm can be very effective, and some EBC's will do that no problem.
You may lose that big rush of torque as boost builds at lower rpm...doesnt always mean that rush makes the car faster though.
Often the rush of low down torque means you can't put the extra power down anyhow in low gears... I can be super aggressive with mine witj full throttlw poasible in 1st gear in se circumstance (very warm tyres lol) and it still has masses of power up top.You may lose that big rush of torque as boost builds at lower rpm...doesnt always mean that rush makes the car faster though.
To put it in perspectives car is very light and has over 500ftlb 4000r and is still making 400ftlb at 8000r so it's not exactly lacking in grunt to spin the wheels.... It's all about the way the power is delivered and with electronic boost control you can do pretty much what you like.
It's definatelly not a bodge if used correctly :-)
If your ecu can support electronic boost control through the rev range I recomend you explore this before splashing of a gear setup
I made a custom sensor for the 6 speed in the ford GT to work with the NLR ams1000.
It is largely responsible for our owning records.
While others are playing with thier ecu based traction control and torque management systems, I realized that boost is torque and the ams1000 could control torque through boost and get better results.
283mph standing mile.
It is largely responsible for our owning records.
While others are playing with thier ecu based traction control and torque management systems, I realized that boost is torque and the ams1000 could control torque through boost and get better results.
283mph standing mile.
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