Handling traits!
Discussion
As most of us I assume! I'm hoping to get on some tracks soon ish? What's the general opinion regarding the handling of our cars when played with hard! Track day etc, road car, decent ish adjustable shocks, toyo proxi's, not me but in the hands of a good driver, what would it likely do at the limit, where will it draw the line, I'm assuming understeer into turns Then oversteer out if you wear lead boots! standard road brakes and pads, bet they get hot quick! Any thoughts and real life experience may save me and the baby lots of pain. Thanks
Done a few track days in my old Chim 430, Griff 500 & my current Chim 400. They're all pretty sharp in a straight line so a good suspension setup & some decent brakes/tyres should see you keep up with some very decent hardware. Just gradually build your speed, find the best way around each corner & get a good rhythm going. You'll be suprised what won't catch you.
Standard brakes are 'ok' if you look after them & keep one eye on the fact that you'll have to drive the bugger home. My current Chim 400 has the WMS 300mm front conversion & they are a lot better than the standard jobbies. Big difference in feel & ultimate 'grunt' for stopping.
http://www.wms-brakes.com/
Enjoy.
Oh & yes, OVERSTEER if you'r to quick with the throttle.
also heel & toe is a must to balance engine speed with road speed, especially on the limit, the back end will lock up if you change down to harsh while braking hard for a corner.
Standard brakes are 'ok' if you look after them & keep one eye on the fact that you'll have to drive the bugger home. My current Chim 400 has the WMS 300mm front conversion & they are a lot better than the standard jobbies. Big difference in feel & ultimate 'grunt' for stopping.
http://www.wms-brakes.com/
Enjoy.
Oh & yes, OVERSTEER if you'r to quick with the throttle.
also heel & toe is a must to balance engine speed with road speed, especially on the limit, the back end will lock up if you change down to harsh while braking hard for a corner.
Edited by pwd95 on Tuesday 15th January 22:54
I got into trackdays big time when i had my Chim. Quite a few things you can do to make them handle. I ended up chasing lotus' around the track, then realised how dangerous the Chim would be if i rolled it!
To improve handling:
Nitron NTR / Gaz Monotubes
Steve heath solid drop links
17/17 or 17/18" wheels
888's or A048 tyres
Good fast road geo
Roll cage
The shocks and springs on the TVR are way too soft for track work. I had Nitrons on my chim and they were the single best improvement i did to the car. 475/400 springs were a good compromise for road/track use. The adjustable shocks allows tailoring to the conditions.
Drop links translate the movement of the hub through the ARB to the other side of the car. If your drop links are rubber and worn there will be a hesitation in this translation. Not great for handling.
Larger rims are very important for two reasons: Tyre choice for 15" rims is very poor. Side wall stiffnes is a very important factor in handling. With standard wheels there is significant lateral wobble. Give your car a push from the side and have a laugh at how much it moves! Especially if you have Toyo T1-R's fitted.
Semi slick tyres are in a different league to road tyres for grip. I found Toyo 888's to be good on the road and track.
A good Geo setup is incredibly important if you want the car to behave in a predicable manner.
The addition of a roll cage not only gives you some protection if you come off the track, but it also helps stiffen the chassis.
Hope that little summary from my experience helps.
Heres a little vid of my car keeping pace with a group of lotus' at Llandow circuit. This section in the vid is very challenging and my car handled it very well.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj195/chimjunki...
To improve handling:
Nitron NTR / Gaz Monotubes
Steve heath solid drop links
17/17 or 17/18" wheels
888's or A048 tyres
Good fast road geo
Roll cage
The shocks and springs on the TVR are way too soft for track work. I had Nitrons on my chim and they were the single best improvement i did to the car. 475/400 springs were a good compromise for road/track use. The adjustable shocks allows tailoring to the conditions.
Drop links translate the movement of the hub through the ARB to the other side of the car. If your drop links are rubber and worn there will be a hesitation in this translation. Not great for handling.
Larger rims are very important for two reasons: Tyre choice for 15" rims is very poor. Side wall stiffnes is a very important factor in handling. With standard wheels there is significant lateral wobble. Give your car a push from the side and have a laugh at how much it moves! Especially if you have Toyo T1-R's fitted.
Semi slick tyres are in a different league to road tyres for grip. I found Toyo 888's to be good on the road and track.
A good Geo setup is incredibly important if you want the car to behave in a predicable manner.
The addition of a roll cage not only gives you some protection if you come off the track, but it also helps stiffen the chassis.
Hope that little summary from my experience helps.
Heres a little vid of my car keeping pace with a group of lotus' at Llandow circuit. This section in the vid is very challenging and my car handled it very well.
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj195/chimjunki...
Edited by Chimjunkie on Wednesday 16th January 08:47
I've always found they lack steering self center'ing which is a lack of castor imho. There is also a tendency for roll induced rear turn in steering too.
Not the best handling cars by a long way, quite challenging to drive & difficult. Some decent shocks & geo set up can make them a lot lot better.
Not the best handling cars by a long way, quite challenging to drive & difficult. Some decent shocks & geo set up can make them a lot lot better.
cptsideways said:
I've always found they lack steering self center'ing which is a lack of castor imho. There is also a tendency for roll induced rear turn in steering too.
Not the best handling cars by a long way, quite challenging to drive & difficult. Some decent shocks & geo set up can make them a lot lot better.
I would imagine the catch 22 with manual rack cars is less Castor in order to keep the steering weight tolerable. But for the power steering models castor could be increased?Not the best handling cars by a long way, quite challenging to drive & difficult. Some decent shocks & geo set up can make them a lot lot better.
TVR's can be great fun on track, but i soon went out and bought a lotus for trackdays.
+1 Pwd95 & Chimjunkie
I've been campaigning my fairly std tune Chim 400 for 5-years in Speed Hillclimbs & Sprints (3- with TVR Speed Champs) and I'm relatively (?) successful - in top 10 for 3-years from 30+ entrants!
Similar set-up to previous posters, TR-Lane roll-bar/drop links/racing red shocks, but have someone who knows what they are doing with geometry (I use Neil Garner, near Kemble) and I ask for track manners not road, i.e. very little understeer, slighly lowered. I also run 500 lb springs at the front to try and reduce the roll!!
Sprints of more that 2-laps can knacker the front brakes - I'm running 283 Cossie (887/888 calipers/discs) and DS 2500 pads - discs only cost £35 the pair so not a real issue, but with 888 tyres and a solid set-up, you will surprised (as are others) on how quick a Std 400 really is!).
Hate track days as Sprints & Hillclimbs are 40/60 secs runs, flat-out, no warm-ups. Only do a track day if I need to learn an circuit or to set-the-car-up and then only about 3-laps at a time throughout the day or I'd need new pads, tyres & discs!!
Cheers.
Trev (K4TRV)
I've been campaigning my fairly std tune Chim 400 for 5-years in Speed Hillclimbs & Sprints (3- with TVR Speed Champs) and I'm relatively (?) successful - in top 10 for 3-years from 30+ entrants!
Similar set-up to previous posters, TR-Lane roll-bar/drop links/racing red shocks, but have someone who knows what they are doing with geometry (I use Neil Garner, near Kemble) and I ask for track manners not road, i.e. very little understeer, slighly lowered. I also run 500 lb springs at the front to try and reduce the roll!!
Sprints of more that 2-laps can knacker the front brakes - I'm running 283 Cossie (887/888 calipers/discs) and DS 2500 pads - discs only cost £35 the pair so not a real issue, but with 888 tyres and a solid set-up, you will surprised (as are others) on how quick a Std 400 really is!).
Hate track days as Sprints & Hillclimbs are 40/60 secs runs, flat-out, no warm-ups. Only do a track day if I need to learn an circuit or to set-the-car-up and then only about 3-laps at a time throughout the day or I'd need new pads, tyres & discs!!
Cheers.
Trev (K4TRV)
Agree with whats said above,I had an almost exact set up to chimjunkie apart from having ohlins and 6 pots with 330mm rotors.
There is no comparison between a well set up Chim or Griff and what left the factory. As already stated, set up properly you'll be embarrassing some exotic hardware. Giving the tits, oversteer becomes more than manageable. When I had a fairly light trafficked track there was nothing more fun than high speed controlled drifts.
You'll be lucky to get 5 minutes on your standard brakes, invest in the best brakes you can afford,not only will you last all day, but the late braking will increase your lap times and make up for the lack of puff on the fast straights.
I would suggest a baffled sump as some form of engine insurance, however I haven't heard of that many lunching themselves due to oil starvation.
There is no comparison between a well set up Chim or Griff and what left the factory. As already stated, set up properly you'll be embarrassing some exotic hardware. Giving the tits, oversteer becomes more than manageable. When I had a fairly light trafficked track there was nothing more fun than high speed controlled drifts.
You'll be lucky to get 5 minutes on your standard brakes, invest in the best brakes you can afford,not only will you last all day, but the late braking will increase your lap times and make up for the lack of puff on the fast straights.
I would suggest a baffled sump as some form of engine insurance, however I haven't heard of that many lunching themselves due to oil starvation.
Edited by v8sag on Wednesday 16th January 09:58
v8sag said:
snippity..............I would suggest a baffled sump as some engine insurance, however I haven't heard of many suffering from oil starvation......snip
I should have addded that I replaced my sump last year as oil light with 888s and full stops for left handers brought the light on.......not had an issue, but worrying enought to change for a baffeled sump!! (2 or 3-V8 were destroyed in the TVR Speed Champs series over the years with oil starvation - more 5-ltr, but all Rover V8 & Std sumps)Trev
All the above.
Replacement large brakes and racing fluid cures the bad brakes, I have never had any problems with brakes on track with upgraded brakes and pads.
If you run big tyres with sticky rubber the car will feel very neutral with a tad of under steer as you try and push hard through corners.
Lift off mid corner on road tyres will see you in the bushes but proper tyres will keep you on the track.
I have a home made baffled sump and most importantly an oil cooler, this has eliminated the dreaded lack of oil pressure!
With the weather improves a bit, come down to a track day and have a passenger ride, you may become hooked!
Replacement large brakes and racing fluid cures the bad brakes, I have never had any problems with brakes on track with upgraded brakes and pads.
If you run big tyres with sticky rubber the car will feel very neutral with a tad of under steer as you try and push hard through corners.
Lift off mid corner on road tyres will see you in the bushes but proper tyres will keep you on the track.
I have a home made baffled sump and most importantly an oil cooler, this has eliminated the dreaded lack of oil pressure!
With the weather improves a bit, come down to a track day and have a passenger ride, you may become hooked!
Sorry guys, admittedly I hammered it last August in 30 degree heat on an airfield, so plenty of long straights, and maybe I wasn't hammering the brakes as much as some of you do, but I didn't find any problem with the standard brakes - they matched the grip of the tyres very nicely (Yoko Paradas on 17 inch rims) on my 400.
Get some decent dry weather tyres for the track. There are some decent cheaper options out there if you don't have the £600-700 for 888s (which many say are the best).
I agree with the comment about not changing down mid bend and just dropping the clutch - you do need to blip the throttle to get the revs matched to the road speed and the new gear, or you can very easily lock up the rear axle and spin. Fine on an airfield, not so funny on the Cadwell Park hairpin, with its lovely inviting tyre wall just off the black stuff.
I also agree about spending the money on a full alignment (£60-70)for better handling, but save it until just before the track day, so that you have changed everything you might change first, as any changes of suspension/joints means re-aligning again.
And don't expect to be as fast as the Caterfields, or the better driven Loti - you won't be!
Get some decent dry weather tyres for the track. There are some decent cheaper options out there if you don't have the £600-700 for 888s (which many say are the best).
I agree with the comment about not changing down mid bend and just dropping the clutch - you do need to blip the throttle to get the revs matched to the road speed and the new gear, or you can very easily lock up the rear axle and spin. Fine on an airfield, not so funny on the Cadwell Park hairpin, with its lovely inviting tyre wall just off the black stuff.
I also agree about spending the money on a full alignment (£60-70)for better handling, but save it until just before the track day, so that you have changed everything you might change first, as any changes of suspension/joints means re-aligning again.
And don't expect to be as fast as the Caterfields, or the better driven Loti - you won't be!
Oh you've all got me revved up, fantastic honest views, so grateful for your knowledge, can't bloody wait! Think my car needs more money spent on brakes etc, the pics show lovely balanced set up, I'm gonna potter round this year and aim to get the car better prepared for next yr!??? I'm not getting the work to pay for it or it would be all done NOW! Jeez those vids are Cool, Silicone where the heck were you a cart track, to narrow for me, cars all look ace.
Geometry? What will a good man who knows his stuff actually do to get geo working nice! Are we talking 4 wheel alignment or more than that, camber/ caster, toe in/out etc, do you fast guys change set up for particular track or just get a good base setting and keep to it. I need bigger wheels for track, I love the originals, but agree about side wall flex etc if bigger = faster then I'll get some!
Geometry is I believe a good four wheel alignment done by someone who knows what he is doing, using the latest computer equipment with the car up on a ramp. Will cost about £60 plus VAT. Computer print out of before and after to show what has been changed.
Less sidewall flex will make it grip the track better.
You will need a helmet.
Try an airfield track day first (less chance of hitting anything if you get it wrong) and either get instruction, or blag rides with people who know how to drive.
Less sidewall flex will make it grip the track better.
You will need a helmet.
Try an airfield track day first (less chance of hitting anything if you get it wrong) and either get instruction, or blag rides with people who know how to drive.
Was thinking of good tyres on standard wheels, that sounds like a waste of money! With all the power you chaps have developed into your cars is it really hard to get power down or are you just brave, stupid or brilliant. Or is it easier because you are coming through corners faster so backs work ok! Tracks are usually small really so is it all about throttle contol at all times as I'm assuming it must be hard to just nail it! Visions of wild tank slapper oversteer slides fill my head or can you boys get the back to stick.
That track is Cadwell Park in Lincolnshire. It's a bike track, so is narrow. Not a particularly good place to start, the Armco and tyre walls might jump up and trash your car. Go for an airfield track day to learn your car. Blyton is one, also in Lincs and costs £99 (and a full tank of fuel too, of course). They do track days at RAF Wittering,on the A1 near Peterborough, and there's a good one at RAF Marham in West Norfolk in April
There's probably one in your area too.
There's probably one in your area too.
Edited by Quietlybonkers on Thursday 17th January 19:49
Yes ok, quietlybonkers, should still have a helmet in date, saw some nice open face ones at Autosport, used to do abit of carting but this feels very different, least the carts gripped, yeah I really want a fast open airfield to overcome my fear! When I was young I raced 500cc Jawa 4 stroke/ methonal fuelled grasstrack, I like drift! I think that's a dangerous mix in a tiv, until I get it all worked out that is!!!!?? Maybe a drive with an experienced driver to tell me what never to do is a must, and effing great fun.
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