GT4 ST185 V MR2 TURBO?
Discussion
Hi all...I have beem offered 2 swaps for my '93 MK 4 SUPRA n/a....I have never driven either, and just wondered what people thought.
Am I correct in thinking that the GT4 will eat the MR2 in the bends?...
The following are the specs of the cars I am looking at:
GT4 'K' plate
It has 190000km
7m mot
3m tax
16inc alloys with 205/40/16
Tein superstreet coilovers on front and 60m springs on rear
Samco hoses rad and turbo
New rad
Xs-power flow down pipe into mongoose full system
Induction kit
Hks ssqv black edition
Carbon wrap bonnet
Red bucket seats
Momo wheel and gear knob
Allways run on vpower
New wheel baring and hubs on front
Serviced every 4k
1991 MR2 TURBO REV 2
Toyota MR2 Turbo with full history and receipts and import papers also.
it has 12months MOT as it has just flown through, and also as of today has 6months tax
it is completly standard apart from a baileys dump valve, devil h147 alloys and also it has bilstein suspension setup all around.
it has cloth seats and as the title says it has only done 60,000 miles
Am I correct in thinking that the GT4 will eat the MR2 in the bends?...
The following are the specs of the cars I am looking at:
GT4 'K' plate
It has 190000km
7m mot
3m tax
16inc alloys with 205/40/16
Tein superstreet coilovers on front and 60m springs on rear
Samco hoses rad and turbo
New rad
Xs-power flow down pipe into mongoose full system
Induction kit
Hks ssqv black edition
Carbon wrap bonnet
Red bucket seats
Momo wheel and gear knob
Allways run on vpower
New wheel baring and hubs on front
Serviced every 4k
1991 MR2 TURBO REV 2
Toyota MR2 Turbo with full history and receipts and import papers also.
it has 12months MOT as it has just flown through, and also as of today has 6months tax
it is completly standard apart from a baileys dump valve, devil h147 alloys and also it has bilstein suspension setup all around.
it has cloth seats and as the title says it has only done 60,000 miles
I think they'd be pretty similar in the bends in terms of pace, MR2 is lighter, less load to corner and mid engined, but they can be nervous while cornering. The GT4 with it's 4WD is probably a much more confidence inspiring drive, allowing you to use more of the car's maximum performance on twistier, bumpier roads and varied surfaces.
As soon as a straight appears, the MR2 turbo will disappear. Much less weight, much more power. Bye bye!
As soon as a straight appears, the MR2 turbo will disappear. Much less weight, much more power. Bye bye!
The GT4 would be easier to drive hard in less than perfect conditions, but the MR2 would probably be somewhat quicker in the right hands in the dry. I like the ST185 but unless I needed rear seats I'd go for the MR2.
Neither of those cars should be fitted with a dump valve that vents to atmosphere though, since they both have air flow meters. This causes hesitation after a gear change due to the suddenly overly rich mixture because you've dumped air that has already been metered, so the ECU still supplies the fuel to go with that air.
Neither of those cars should be fitted with a dump valve that vents to atmosphere though, since they both have air flow meters. This causes hesitation after a gear change due to the suddenly overly rich mixture because you've dumped air that has already been metered, so the ECU still supplies the fuel to go with that air.
Putting all potential bias to one side, considering you have a low mileage, near enough standard Rev2 turbo with full history on one side and a high mileage GT4 with some dubious sounding mods (coilovers on the front, 60mm springs on the back?) I'd lean towards the MR2.
I do like the ST185 GT4, and they are really quite rare these days! However, despite ostensibly having the same powerplant as the MR2, its down by about 20bhp, plus its heavier, and to compound it all it suffers from greater transmission losses. Its 0-60 time is nearly 2 seconds slower (7.6s plays 5.7s) and its about 15-20mph down on top speed, its no drag racer! It will almost certainly be an easier steer than the MR2 through the twisties but the MR2 is a car that rewards precision and accuracy and stringing a series of bends together is very much a process that involves the driver.
The Rev 2 MR2 saw a number of revisions to its suspension and geometry setup to address the criticism levelled at the Rev 1, these changes were carried on through to the final production models of the Mk2 MR2, although the 3SGTE engine did undergo further development.
I hate to say it but other than a low mileage breathed on ST185 GT4 there are better alternatives in the low cost rally slag market. There aren't many Mid-Rear alternatives at the same price point as the MR2 Turbo..........
I do like the ST185 GT4, and they are really quite rare these days! However, despite ostensibly having the same powerplant as the MR2, its down by about 20bhp, plus its heavier, and to compound it all it suffers from greater transmission losses. Its 0-60 time is nearly 2 seconds slower (7.6s plays 5.7s) and its about 15-20mph down on top speed, its no drag racer! It will almost certainly be an easier steer than the MR2 through the twisties but the MR2 is a car that rewards precision and accuracy and stringing a series of bends together is very much a process that involves the driver.
The Rev 2 MR2 saw a number of revisions to its suspension and geometry setup to address the criticism levelled at the Rev 1, these changes were carried on through to the final production models of the Mk2 MR2, although the 3SGTE engine did undergo further development.
I hate to say it but other than a low mileage breathed on ST185 GT4 there are better alternatives in the low cost rally slag market. There aren't many Mid-Rear alternatives at the same price point as the MR2 Turbo..........
A 185 is a cracker, but you really should be aiming for the Carlos Sainz version if you want a good deal. They are the wide body ones with the big vent on the bonnet instead of a scoop (impreza style).
However for not a lot more you culd go for the ST205 - a much better prospect, and with boost at 1.1bar it's a giant killer on standard internals.
Join the GT4oc and IMOC or their equivalents and see what's for sale there.
Try both (or all 3) - buy the one you like.
However for not a lot more you culd go for the ST205 - a much better prospect, and with boost at 1.1bar it's a giant killer on standard internals.
Join the GT4oc and IMOC or their equivalents and see what's for sale there.
Try both (or all 3) - buy the one you like.
RedAndy said:
A 185 is a cracker, but you really should be aiming for the Carlos Sainz version if you want a good deal. They are the wide body ones with the big vent on the bonnet instead of a scoop (impreza style).
However for not a lot more you culd go for the ST205 - a much better prospect, and with boost at 1.1bar it's a giant killer on standard internals.
Join the GT4oc and IMOC or their equivalents and see what's for sale there.
Try both (or all 3) - buy the one you like.
Best advice on here - the ST205 is a much more realistic comparison to an MR2 Turbo. I was after the '2 but went for the '4 in the end due to being able to use more of the power on a daily basis, wish I went for the '2 now...However for not a lot more you culd go for the ST205 - a much better prospect, and with boost at 1.1bar it's a giant killer on standard internals.
Join the GT4oc and IMOC or their equivalents and see what's for sale there.
Try both (or all 3) - buy the one you like.
Riknos said:
Best advice on here - the ST205 is a much more realistic comparison to an MR2 Turbo. I was after the '2 but went for the '4 in the end due to being able to use more of the power on a daily basis, wish I went for the '2 now...
I see myself thinking the opposite. Recently stepped into MR2 ownership and so far have not been able to fully enjoy the car and found it a pain to live with in the cold conditions. I'm hoping when spring rolls around the car will show me a new side to it and I'll change my opinion.Sam1990 said:
I see myself thinking the opposite. Recently stepped into MR2 ownership and so far have not been able to fully enjoy the car and found it a pain to live with in the cold conditions. I'm hoping when spring rolls around the car will show me a new side to it and I'll change my opinion.
Were you really expecting a high performance, mid engined, turbocharged sports car to be ideal for low grip conditions?Mr2Mike said:
Were you really expecting a high performance, mid engined, turbocharged sports car to be ideal for low grip conditions?
The grip is not the issue, any car with any layout is hindered by the snow. It's the rest of the car which has disheartened me. The frozen doors, frozen internal windscreen, frozen handbrake cable etc. Perhaps attributed with a car of it's age rather than the car itself but so far MR2 ownership hasn't got off to a great start for me but I'm hoping the change in weather will bring with it a whole new experience and the possibility of buying a shed to use as a daily next winter will maintain to car's likeability. Hi i own a GT4 st185 and its a cracking car, the thing you have to remember is the intercooler suffers from heat soak so a good uprade is to put a fmic on there, i have done this to mine and it makes a hell ov a diffrence.
The MR2 will be quicker because of the weight diffrence but then i find there to tail happy for any real fast road driving, the gt4 i find handles alot better and it more predictible being 4 wheel drive hth
si
The MR2 will be quicker because of the weight diffrence but then i find there to tail happy for any real fast road driving, the gt4 i find handles alot better and it more predictible being 4 wheel drive hth
si
Sam1990 said:
The grip is not the issue, any car with any layout is hindered by the snow. It's the rest of the car which has disheartened me. The frozen doors, frozen internal windscreen, frozen handbrake cable etc. Perhaps attributed with a car of it's age rather than the car itself but so far MR2 ownership hasn't got off to a great start for me but I'm hoping the change in weather will bring with it a whole new experience and the possibility of buying a shed to use as a daily next winter will maintain to car's likeability.
A frozen handbrake is quite common on older MR2s in the winter, mine did this regularly until I got off my backside and fitted new cables. The rubber boots on the ends perish and the cable fills with water, which then freezes solid. As a bonus the handbrake should be significantly improved with new cables as well, mine would barely hold it on my (admittedly steep) driveway before I changed them.Frozen interiors and old cars tend to go together unfortunately. If yours is a T-top then the glass is very probably leaking. Cleaning the glass and seals and treating them with rubber lubricant (Halfords sell it) usually sorts this out. The frameless door windows also need careful adjustment to ensure they seal as well as possible (which often isn't very well!).
I'll be the first to agree that it not an ideal winter car, but my Mk2 Turbo was my only car for 5 years and I did 60 miles a day in it to work and back through some very poor conditions so it is doable, if not much fun sometimes. You'll forget all about it when the weather improves though
Edited by Mr2Mike on Wednesday 23 January 14:12
Deff take a MR2 over a ST185 every time een if it was a CS.
Had a 185 and it did nothing for me - dreadfully poor brakes , very heavy and not a fast car at all in standard tune.
Upping power can be expensive as you need to really upgrade to a metal head gasket and ideally ARP bolts if upping boost , and no off shelf FMIC kits to replace the top mounted unit.
Also most are now suffering from the dreaded rust - especially sunroof models , and can suffer cracks on the bulkhead.
IMO will be a money pit.
Same is true of the later ST205 - lots on sale but 99% of the cheaper affordable ones are dogs that have been bought on impulse with no research done.
I love mine but i was very lucky to find a pristine low miles cherished example - but if i had choice to go back and buy something different i would have.
Had a 185 and it did nothing for me - dreadfully poor brakes , very heavy and not a fast car at all in standard tune.
Upping power can be expensive as you need to really upgrade to a metal head gasket and ideally ARP bolts if upping boost , and no off shelf FMIC kits to replace the top mounted unit.
Also most are now suffering from the dreaded rust - especially sunroof models , and can suffer cracks on the bulkhead.
IMO will be a money pit.
Same is true of the later ST205 - lots on sale but 99% of the cheaper affordable ones are dogs that have been bought on impulse with no research done.
I love mine but i was very lucky to find a pristine low miles cherished example - but if i had choice to go back and buy something different i would have.
gtscraig said:
Major changes came for the mr2 from rev 3 onwards late 93, this included a different turbo and suspension points that cancelled out the snap oversteer tendencies.
Not quite. The major, and most important, changes were made to the Rev 2. This includes the revised suspension, larger brakes and 15" wheels. The Rev3 had a different turbo and ditched the old flap style airflow meter to make some more power, but back to back it's barely any quicker than the Rev 2 in standard form.On decent tyres in the dry, you would have to be driving like a fool to get into real trouble. In the wet and/or on ditchfinders coupled with indiscriminate use of the throttle whilst corning and a visit the the scenery is very likely, though this is hardly a trait unique to the MR2. Most powerful mid engined cars can be tricky to drive in those conditions.
Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 4th February 10:35
Mr2Mike said:
Not quite. The major, and most important, changes were made to the Rev 2. This includes the revised suspension, larger brakes and 15" wheels. The Rev3 had a different turbo and ditched the old flap style airflow meter to make some more power, but back to back it's barely any quicker than the Rev 2 in standard form.
On decent tyres in the dry, you would have to be driving like a fool to get into real trouble. In the wet and/or on ditchfinders coupled with indiscriminate use of the throttle whilst corning and a visit the the scenery is very likely, though this is hardly a trait unique to the MR2. Most powerful mid engined cars can be tricky to drive in those conditions.
Not to be pedantic On decent tyres in the dry, you would have to be driving like a fool to get into real trouble. In the wet and/or on ditchfinders coupled with indiscriminate use of the throttle whilst corning and a visit the the scenery is very likely, though this is hardly a trait unique to the MR2. Most powerful mid engined cars can be tricky to drive in those conditions.
Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 4th February 10:35
there was alot more to the Rev 2 to Rev 3 changes than just a turbo change and MAP sensor. But I agree most of the chassis changes were done to Rev 2 to help the scardy cats I've owned a mk2 rev2 turbo mr2 for 3 years now and am happy with my choice.
It's comfy to drive in for motorway driving.
Great fun on B roads.
Acceleration will surprise and be on par with much more modern sports gt cars.
Can return decent mpg when driving sensibly.
First thing join Imoc for all the advice you could need, spare parts and help on mods.
Remove the vent to atmosphere dump valve and replace with the standard recirculation unit.
(Second hand 15quid)
I would properly find one of the garages listed on Imoc to give the car a health check and service.
Before you do buy be sure to check the sills for rust esp towards the rear wheels as these rust for fun. There is a drain point from the roof that exits in this area.
Also check the turbo for shaft play. Ideally you want none to very little like a mm.
Also drive it and check that boost keeps on from the turbo until around 5, 500rpm.
It doesn't sound like it's been modded so should be pretty solid. These engines are very strong and reliable when looked after correctly and not modified too much.
Best of luck with what ever you decide
It's comfy to drive in for motorway driving.
Great fun on B roads.
Acceleration will surprise and be on par with much more modern sports gt cars.
Can return decent mpg when driving sensibly.
First thing join Imoc for all the advice you could need, spare parts and help on mods.
Remove the vent to atmosphere dump valve and replace with the standard recirculation unit.
(Second hand 15quid)
I would properly find one of the garages listed on Imoc to give the car a health check and service.
Before you do buy be sure to check the sills for rust esp towards the rear wheels as these rust for fun. There is a drain point from the roof that exits in this area.
Also check the turbo for shaft play. Ideally you want none to very little like a mm.
Also drive it and check that boost keeps on from the turbo until around 5, 500rpm.
It doesn't sound like it's been modded so should be pretty solid. These engines are very strong and reliable when looked after correctly and not modified too much.
Best of luck with what ever you decide
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