Home automation / AV install
Discussion
Hi,
I'm thinking of having a control-4 system installed at my house, together with a video distribution system that will send HD video around the house from a central Comms room.
The house is wired up with Cat5 from a central cupboard to the TV points in the house.
I've had a couple of quotes from installers that have assumed that I should pay full rrp on the hardware (ie. margins of 20-40% on the equipment), in addition to their labour charge.
I don't want to stop anyone from earning a living, but the couple of quotes I've had just seem a bit toppy.
Has anyone had experience of a A/V or home-control company that is reasonably priced ? Eg I'd be happier to get quotes that are more transparent, which break down:
- cost price of hardware (not recommended retail prices)
- agreed margin on the hardware (eg fixed % on equipment)
- labour for the install
Am I being unreasonable ? Almost tempted to DIY the install but would prefer to have someone experienced do the install.
I'm thinking of having a control-4 system installed at my house, together with a video distribution system that will send HD video around the house from a central Comms room.
The house is wired up with Cat5 from a central cupboard to the TV points in the house.
I've had a couple of quotes from installers that have assumed that I should pay full rrp on the hardware (ie. margins of 20-40% on the equipment), in addition to their labour charge.
I don't want to stop anyone from earning a living, but the couple of quotes I've had just seem a bit toppy.
Has anyone had experience of a A/V or home-control company that is reasonably priced ? Eg I'd be happier to get quotes that are more transparent, which break down:
- cost price of hardware (not recommended retail prices)
- agreed margin on the hardware (eg fixed % on equipment)
- labour for the install
Am I being unreasonable ? Almost tempted to DIY the install but would prefer to have someone experienced do the install.
I have just gone through the process of entirely ripping a house apart and starting again so took to opportunity to look at various home automation, lighting and AV system.
My only brief was that everything should feel "normal". By that I mean no touchscreen controls for lights etc. I didn't want anyone to have to learn how to use the house.
In the end we did the standard run Cat 6 cables everywhere, used an excellent HDMI distribution system from HD Anywhere, Lutron lighting system for everywhere and a Honeywell Evo for heating. We did look at Control 4 but just found it a step too far for what we were looking for.
I installed the HD Anywhere box myself and everything else was done by professionals. I probably could now install the Lutron but that is only because I spent time getting to learn the system.
If you want any advice or further questions, let me know. Most good installers do not try and make too much on the equipment.
My only brief was that everything should feel "normal". By that I mean no touchscreen controls for lights etc. I didn't want anyone to have to learn how to use the house.
In the end we did the standard run Cat 6 cables everywhere, used an excellent HDMI distribution system from HD Anywhere, Lutron lighting system for everywhere and a Honeywell Evo for heating. We did look at Control 4 but just found it a step too far for what we were looking for.
I installed the HD Anywhere box myself and everything else was done by professionals. I probably could now install the Lutron but that is only because I spent time getting to learn the system.
If you want any advice or further questions, let me know. Most good installers do not try and make too much on the equipment.
HD Connectivity make some great products. I am just installing a HD Distribution over IP network at the moment. Very clever although it does need a control system behind it like Control4. It all depends how much you want to do and the budget. If I was to charge list prices on equipment I would never win any jobs, on the other hand I can't buy some items any cheaper as trade. I would of thought if you ask for a breakdown they would be happy to show where the costs are.
Andy
Andy
JDFR said:
In the end we did the standard run Cat 6 cables everywhere, used an excellent HDMI distribution system from HD Anywhere, Lutron lighting system for everywhere and a Honeywell Evo for heating. We did look at Control 4 but just found it a step too far for what we were looking for.
I installed the HD Anywhere box myself and everything else was done by professionals. I probably could now install the Lutron but that is only because I spent time getting to learn the system.
If you want any advice or further questions, let me know. Most good installers do not try and make too much on the equipment.
Many thanks for the feedback. Sounds like you have similar needs to us, and we did something similar in our previous house (pre-wired but never got around to installation). I installed the HD Anywhere box myself and everything else was done by professionals. I probably could now install the Lutron but that is only because I spent time getting to learn the system.
If you want any advice or further questions, let me know. Most good installers do not try and make too much on the equipment.
I've sent you my contact details - will be good to take it up off-line.
One of my other requirements is that I don't want something so complex that I need a full maintenance program, for fear of being taken over a barrel repeatedly over time. Prefer to have a system that we can understand enough to deal with minor issues ourselves (eg. Reprogramming mood lighting in case we want to change the presets, etc).
No I would never give away cost prices but when asked I am happy to give a break down of labour charges and equipment. Some customers like to know where the costs build up and don't understand charges for programming, drivers or licence costs. There are lots of different options out there for control systems. I am sure each system has its advantages and disadvantages.
Like Vex says have a look what else is on the market, ask the install companies for a hands on demo if they have the facility to show the system in action.
Andy
Like Vex says have a look what else is on the market, ask the install companies for a hands on demo if they have the facility to show the system in action.
Andy
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sorry to say that is how I buy my cars. As we change cars too frequently, we've built up good relationships with a couple of dealers who are happy to be transparent and in return they get repeat business. But point well made, I'm sure most dealers would tell me to p!ss off, and so I don't deal with them. But I digress. As I said above, I don't mind people making money but the margins on some items are just ott. For example, items like in-wall speakers can easily have margins of 50-60%. I don't mind paying someone for a service - hell, that's why they are in business, but I just prefer to know what I'm paying for their services vs the hardware itself. Maybe the better way is to spec the project down to the last termination plug and put it out to tender. Thanks for sharing your views - I do appreciate the feedback. VEX said:
One other dealer based question.
Why control4?
Did the other quoters sit down and talk through options and ideas or just jump onto 'you need C4' bandwagon.
C4 is good but there are plenty of others that could well fit you budget and system requirements better.
V.
Of course, am not wedded to C4, only used that as a starting point because there is already some C4 equipment in the house. Happy to consider swapping it out for something else, if it makes sense to just chuck the other stuff away (or sell on eBay, etc). Why control4?
Did the other quoters sit down and talk through options and ideas or just jump onto 'you need C4' bandwagon.
C4 is good but there are plenty of others that could well fit you budget and system requirements better.
V.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yup, I've done a fair bit of research, but wouldn't claim to be an expert. I have the impression that the likes of Crestron/AMX will be too complicated for us, and we don't need that level of sophistication. Happy to speak to anyone on here that would be interested to look at our project on a supply-only or supply+install basis.
Thanks for the extra info. Don't worry, haven't taken any of it the wrong way - all constructive feedback that is well appreciated.
I probably should have clarified that all of the structured cabling, etc is already in place. So the basic "infrastructure" is already installed, including cat5/coax/lighting switch lines/CCTV/speaker cable all fed back and terminated in a hub.
The previous owner had some C4 equipment put in but never got around to connecting more than one zone.
At this stage, I'm looking to either expand the C4 remote zones [or replace with another control system]. One possibility is that we just get rid of a control system altogether unless required for the HD video distribution.
For audio, am tempted just to use Sonos amplified zone players connected to the existing speaker cable, as its reliable and relatively easy to use (and maintenance free).
I agree with the points you make above about the extra value (and after-sales) that the installation company can provide. Perhaps I should have clarified that I'd like a system that is simple enough that most issues can be resolved by myself, without needing engineers to be sent out to fix things. In many ways, it could be that my requirements are not complicated enough for the more sophisticated AV install companies.
Either way, happy to have a conversation to discuss. Will send you my contact details by email.
Thanks again for taking the time to post your feedback.
I probably should have clarified that all of the structured cabling, etc is already in place. So the basic "infrastructure" is already installed, including cat5/coax/lighting switch lines/CCTV/speaker cable all fed back and terminated in a hub.
The previous owner had some C4 equipment put in but never got around to connecting more than one zone.
At this stage, I'm looking to either expand the C4 remote zones [or replace with another control system]. One possibility is that we just get rid of a control system altogether unless required for the HD video distribution.
For audio, am tempted just to use Sonos amplified zone players connected to the existing speaker cable, as its reliable and relatively easy to use (and maintenance free).
I agree with the points you make above about the extra value (and after-sales) that the installation company can provide. Perhaps I should have clarified that I'd like a system that is simple enough that most issues can be resolved by myself, without needing engineers to be sent out to fix things. In many ways, it could be that my requirements are not complicated enough for the more sophisticated AV install companies.
Either way, happy to have a conversation to discuss. Will send you my contact details by email.
Thanks again for taking the time to post your feedback.
Have any of these the dealers actually been out to talk to you and see what been installed?
Sounds like they either haven't, didn't listen or your requirements have changed. To be able to price I would't dream of not spending at least a couple of FOC hours with a client understanding the system and then understanding the actually requirements and functions.
I usually have to pull people back from 'I want this, that and the other brand names' to actually look at their requirements and not the dream list.
A typical one is 'I want HD in every room' but there are only two of you in a 5 bed house and Your'll base yourself day to day in just three rooms. So SD should be fine in the other rooms for guests that visit once a year!
Do you have drawings of where every cable goes? Or ends up in the ceiling? One of your issues with fixed cost or hardware +% + labour is that an unknown system could eat labour. Higher margins would allow us to absorb those days, squeezed margins would lead to a cost being charged a lot earlier. A lot of my clients ask for something extra to be done while we are there and it just happens for them.
Hth.
V.
Sounds like they either haven't, didn't listen or your requirements have changed. To be able to price I would't dream of not spending at least a couple of FOC hours with a client understanding the system and then understanding the actually requirements and functions.
I usually have to pull people back from 'I want this, that and the other brand names' to actually look at their requirements and not the dream list.
A typical one is 'I want HD in every room' but there are only two of you in a 5 bed house and Your'll base yourself day to day in just three rooms. So SD should be fine in the other rooms for guests that visit once a year!
Do you have drawings of where every cable goes? Or ends up in the ceiling? One of your issues with fixed cost or hardware +% + labour is that an unknown system could eat labour. Higher margins would allow us to absorb those days, squeezed margins would lead to a cost being charged a lot earlier. A lot of my clients ask for something extra to be done while we are there and it just happens for them.
Hth.
V.
Edited by VEX on Saturday 19th January 18:28
Kananga said:
Many thanks for the feedback. Sounds like you have similar needs to us, and we did something similar in our previous house (pre-wired but never got around to installation).
I've sent you my contact details - will be good to take it up off-line.
One of my other requirements is that I don't want something so complex that I need a full maintenance program, for fear of being taken over a barrel repeatedly over time. Prefer to have a system that we can understand enough to deal with minor issues ourselves (eg. Reprogramming mood lighting in case we want to change the presets, etc).
Hi Kananga; never received your contact details but feel free to ping them across again.I've sent you my contact details - will be good to take it up off-line.
One of my other requirements is that I don't want something so complex that I need a full maintenance program, for fear of being taken over a barrel repeatedly over time. Prefer to have a system that we can understand enough to deal with minor issues ourselves (eg. Reprogramming mood lighting in case we want to change the presets, etc).
VEX said:
Have any of these the dealers actually been out to talk to you and see what been installed?
...
Do you have drawings of where every cable goes? Or ends up in the ceiling? One of your issues with fixed cost or hardware +% + labour is that an unknown system could eat labour. Higher margins would allow us to absorb those days, squeezed margins would lead to a cost being charged a lot earlier.
Hi Vex,...
Do you have drawings of where every cable goes? Or ends up in the ceiling? One of your issues with fixed cost or hardware +% + labour is that an unknown system could eat labour. Higher margins would allow us to absorb those days, squeezed margins would lead to a cost being charged a lot earlier.
Thanks for the extra info. If you're the same vex that is on avforums, have heard of you by reputation (all very positive!).
To answer your questions, yes both companies that quoted have been out to the house and had a detailed look at what is there.
I also have detailed schematics showing the provisions that have been prepared in each room and the corresponding terminations in the central hub.
I fully understand that in a situation where there are many unknowns, it would be totally logical to build in a cushion for time required to 'decipher' what is currently in the house.
Sorry if I've come across across harsh. I think av/integration installers have a great product/service to offer. Just trying to make sure I understand how much I'm paying for the overall package, beyond the cost of the hardware itself.
If I can pay someone else to do it for me, that would be ideal. But if the combination of [margin on hardware] + [explicit labour charge] goes beyond a certain level, then I'd just rather do it myself. I guess that's ultimately the trade-off for me.
Does anyone have any specific companies in the south east that they'd recommend ?
Edited by Kananga on Saturday 19th January 21:51
Gassing Station | Home Cinema & Hi-Fi | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff