Yacht delivery in Europe
Discussion
Hi chaps,
I know some of you guys have been in the delivery business, and rather than me waste the time of some poor yacht delivery companies, maybe it's better if I waste yours instead.
1) A 40' sailing yacht from Croatia to the UK on it's own bottom, the long way around. Back of a fag packet says 1100 miles from Zadar to Gib, and 1250 miles from Gib to the UK, so say 2500 miles. I'm assuming one skipper, one mate, and one crew?
2) Same journey, but going up to Marseille or somewhere on the French coast that I could have her loaded and dragged up to Calais or St Malo, and I can bring her back myself from there.
3) Same journey by road, google maps gives 1250 miles.
Only after a ball-park figure to see if it's viable.
The other alternative is to get delivery to somewhere like Rome or Ibiza or Malaga and sail her back the rest of the way myself.
Yet another alternative is to rope in some mates or like minded souls who fancy a couple of long-ish trips. Split in to three or four long passages (or more likely 6 or 8), it's actually not a bad journey (albeit against the wind until turning right at Gib).
I'm not overly short on time myself, but I am short on crew, and being able to spend a month out of the office with no Internet. I can do a few days at a time, but then need a day to catch up again. Not ideal for long passage sailing.
Any ideas?
I know some of you guys have been in the delivery business, and rather than me waste the time of some poor yacht delivery companies, maybe it's better if I waste yours instead.
1) A 40' sailing yacht from Croatia to the UK on it's own bottom, the long way around. Back of a fag packet says 1100 miles from Zadar to Gib, and 1250 miles from Gib to the UK, so say 2500 miles. I'm assuming one skipper, one mate, and one crew?
2) Same journey, but going up to Marseille or somewhere on the French coast that I could have her loaded and dragged up to Calais or St Malo, and I can bring her back myself from there.
3) Same journey by road, google maps gives 1250 miles.
Only after a ball-park figure to see if it's viable.
The other alternative is to get delivery to somewhere like Rome or Ibiza or Malaga and sail her back the rest of the way myself.
Yet another alternative is to rope in some mates or like minded souls who fancy a couple of long-ish trips. Split in to three or four long passages (or more likely 6 or 8), it's actually not a bad journey (albeit against the wind until turning right at Gib).
I'm not overly short on time myself, but I am short on crew, and being able to spend a month out of the office with no Internet. I can do a few days at a time, but then need a day to catch up again. Not ideal for long passage sailing.
Any ideas?
fridgedoctor said:
I'll come and help for a bit for free if you teach me how to sail (you buy beer too). Not kidding.
Ok, so now I just need a skipper and a first mate.
Seriously though, it might come to this, and it's not actually a bad idea.
Between myself, another experienced sailor, and some 'holidaymakers', it's almost feasible to do it on my own. The only bit I'm not sure about is Biscay....
I've already done a season in the med (albeit at the other end), so familiar with the foibles, as it were.
MOTORVATOR said:
You're obviously aware that Biscay isn't to be done short handed or ill prepared.
If you are buying in Croatia I assume you are going Vat Free and leave it registered there until they join to be automatically vat paid?
I've sent you a PM.
Hi If you are buying in Croatia I assume you are going Vat Free and leave it registered there until they join to be automatically vat paid?
I've sent you a PM.
Would you mind sending me a similar PM? thanks
MOTORVATOR said:
You're obviously aware that Biscay isn't to be done short handed or ill prepared.
If you are buying in Croatia I assume you are going Vat Free and leave it registered there until they join to be automatically vat paid?
I've sent you a PM.
If you are buying in Croatia I assume you are going Vat Free and leave it registered there until they join to be automatically vat paid?
I've sent you a PM.
Hence my 'The only bit I'm not sure about is Biscay' comment!
The boat is more than capable of handling it, for certain. I, however, am probably not.
VAT isn't an issue, I can run it through a company, probably via a Cypriot holding company so I can squeeze out the VAT that way. I'm pretty hot on this as I already do business across half of Europe.
Worst case, I'll ping it through a HK company and register there instead, or something.
Cheers for the PM, I had a very low quote to southern Spain a few years ago, think it was about £2200 to Gandia or Valencia or something, but that was a back load so very cheap, and also getting on for eight years ago when the scenery was a lot different.
Having never moved a boat on it's own bottom before, I was more interested in that route.
Seti said:
Hi
Would you mind sending me a similar PM? thanks
Hi Seti the mail wasn't related to the Vat position just a heads up for Maser on another matter.Would you mind sending me a similar PM? thanks
The Vat position in Croatia is interesting though as obviously boats there are not Vat paid and would ordinarily incur tax as they import but with them joining the EU at that point the boat effectively becomes VAT paid.
Makes for some interesting possible purchases over that side at the moment.
maser_spyder said:
Hence my 'The only bit I'm not sure about is Biscay' comment!
The boat is more than capable of handling it, for certain. I, however, am probably not.
VAT isn't an issue, I can run it through a company, probably via a Cypriot holding company so I can squeeze out the VAT that way. I'm pretty hot on this as I already do business across half of Europe.
Worst case, I'll ping it through a HK company and register there instead, or something.
Cheers for the PM, I had a very low quote to southern Spain a few years ago, think it was about £2200 to Gandia or Valencia or something, but that was a back load so very cheap, and also getting on for eight years ago when the scenery was a lot different.
Having never moved a boat on it's own bottom before, I was more interested in that route.
I doubt you can get all the way through Canal Du Midi but my understanding is that it is easy to get a lift out and transport over the low water / bridge parts and that would then put you well over halfway up Biscay and coastal.
Makes for a better journey across the Med as well with natural stopovers.
What is you goal for all of this?
Is it a matter of gaining sailing experience?
Are you looking to get a boat back in to the UK cheap?
Do you have an abundance of time? (i.e retired with nothing better to do for 2 - 3 months)
How much sailing experience do you have? (and I don't mean RYA crap) I mean proper experience?
Reason I throw these questions is because I have completed a 1200mile trip in a 37' motor cruiser through the adriatic and across the channel in December just gone. My objective was to get the boat back to the Thames from Greece.
What time of the year are you going to do this?
You talk of the bay of biscay but have you heard of a Bura? you could face waves of 10m easy when passing Croatia if this NE wind gusts from the mountains, and reaches a speed of 80nts (the fastest recorded Bura wind was recorded at 250KPH)
All I am saying is its very difficult to advise with the small amount of information offered in your initial post.
Give us some more info and myself and others can provide some real advice.
Is it a matter of gaining sailing experience?
Are you looking to get a boat back in to the UK cheap?
Do you have an abundance of time? (i.e retired with nothing better to do for 2 - 3 months)
How much sailing experience do you have? (and I don't mean RYA crap) I mean proper experience?
Reason I throw these questions is because I have completed a 1200mile trip in a 37' motor cruiser through the adriatic and across the channel in December just gone. My objective was to get the boat back to the Thames from Greece.
What time of the year are you going to do this?
You talk of the bay of biscay but have you heard of a Bura? you could face waves of 10m easy when passing Croatia if this NE wind gusts from the mountains, and reaches a speed of 80nts (the fastest recorded Bura wind was recorded at 250KPH)
All I am saying is its very difficult to advise with the small amount of information offered in your initial post.
Give us some more info and myself and others can provide some real advice.
m0ssy said:
What is you goal for all of this?
Is it a matter of gaining sailing experience?
Are you looking to get a boat back in to the UK cheap?
Do you have an abundance of time? (i.e retired with nothing better to do for 2 - 3 months)
How much sailing experience do you have? (and I don't mean RYA crap) I mean proper experience?
Reason I throw these questions is because I have completed a 1200mile trip in a 37' motor cruiser through the adriatic and across the channel in December just gone. My objective was to get the boat back to the Thames from Greece.
What time of the year are you going to do this?
You talk of the bay of biscay but have you heard of a Bura? you could face waves of 10m easy when passing Croatia if this NE wind gusts from the mountains, and reaches a speed of 80nts (the fastest recorded Bura wind was recorded at 250KPH)
All I am saying is its very difficult to advise with the small amount of information offered in your initial post.
Give us some more info and myself and others can provide some real advice.
I initially asked for a delivery cost approximation, nothing much more than that. Is it a matter of gaining sailing experience?
Are you looking to get a boat back in to the UK cheap?
Do you have an abundance of time? (i.e retired with nothing better to do for 2 - 3 months)
How much sailing experience do you have? (and I don't mean RYA crap) I mean proper experience?
Reason I throw these questions is because I have completed a 1200mile trip in a 37' motor cruiser through the adriatic and across the channel in December just gone. My objective was to get the boat back to the Thames from Greece.
What time of the year are you going to do this?
You talk of the bay of biscay but have you heard of a Bura? you could face waves of 10m easy when passing Croatia if this NE wind gusts from the mountains, and reaches a speed of 80nts (the fastest recorded Bura wind was recorded at 250KPH)
All I am saying is its very difficult to advise with the small amount of information offered in your initial post.
Give us some more info and myself and others can provide some real advice.
MOTORVATOR said:
Have you considered coming up the canals. Gib is certainly a long way round whereas the North South canals can be done in two and a half weeks at a push.
I doubt you can get all the way through Canal Du Midi but my understanding is that it is easy to get a lift out and transport over the low water / bridge parts and that would then put you well over halfway up Biscay and coastal.
Makes for a better journey across the Med as well with natural stopovers.
Yes, I looked at that quite a few years ago, but it's all still valid I guess.I doubt you can get all the way through Canal Du Midi but my understanding is that it is easy to get a lift out and transport over the low water / bridge parts and that would then put you well over halfway up Biscay and coastal.
Makes for a better journey across the Med as well with natural stopovers.
She would draw about 1.9m, so not (unless maybe at the right time of year?) go through without draught issues.
Actually, I would LOVE to do French canals (I even have my CEVNI certificate, so I'm a fully stamped European Inland Waterways Boatmaster, for what that's worth!), but not in a big ugly sailing boat that's missing the important bit. If I was going to do French canals, I'd do it in a proper boat and enjoy it at leisure, as it looks beautiful.
Perhaps enjoying it as far as Marseille might be a good idea, then get a lift over to northern France and hop over to home.
m0ssy said:
What is you goal for all of this?
Is it a matter of gaining sailing experience?
Are you looking to get a boat back in to the UK cheap?
Do you have an abundance of time? (i.e retired with nothing better to do for 2 - 3 months)
How much sailing experience do you have? (and I don't mean RYA crap) I mean proper experience?
Reason I throw these questions is because I have completed a 1200mile trip in a 37' motor cruiser through the adriatic and across the channel in December just gone. My objective was to get the boat back to the Thames from Greece.
What time of the year are you going to do this?
You talk of the bay of biscay but have you heard of a Bura? you could face waves of 10m easy when passing Croatia if this NE wind gusts from the mountains, and reaches a speed of 80nts (the fastest recorded Bura wind was recorded at 250KPH)
All I am saying is its very difficult to advise with the small amount of information offered in your initial post.
Give us some more info and myself and others can provide some real advice.
Ok, I'll bite, despite the slightly over-aggressive nature of the post.Is it a matter of gaining sailing experience?
Are you looking to get a boat back in to the UK cheap?
Do you have an abundance of time? (i.e retired with nothing better to do for 2 - 3 months)
How much sailing experience do you have? (and I don't mean RYA crap) I mean proper experience?
Reason I throw these questions is because I have completed a 1200mile trip in a 37' motor cruiser through the adriatic and across the channel in December just gone. My objective was to get the boat back to the Thames from Greece.
What time of the year are you going to do this?
You talk of the bay of biscay but have you heard of a Bura? you could face waves of 10m easy when passing Croatia if this NE wind gusts from the mountains, and reaches a speed of 80nts (the fastest recorded Bura wind was recorded at 250KPH)
All I am saying is its very difficult to advise with the small amount of information offered in your initial post.
Give us some more info and myself and others can provide some real advice.
Goal, get a cheap boat back from Croatia (they have a glut of this particular model, here in the UK, we do not).
Sailing experience, you can never stop learning, so I guess yes.
Cheap - yes, but maybe not the UK, it's where I'm technically based now, but might not be, or at least it doesn't have to be here.
Time, yes, sure, I'm the boss. August to December is busy, the rest, I can take six months off with email access twice a week without too much fuss.
Sailing experience, plenty, thanks for your concern.
Time of year not important, but ideally before July (when the Med gets very busy).
Bura, no, because I've never sailed this part of the world. But I used to be based near Perpignan, so am familiar with the Mistral (it sounds similar). As an experienced sailor though, I would know to check the weather before passage making.
That said, I don't really see how any of these answers above make much difference. I was after an approximate delivery cost (even very approximate) by a professional crew, or by road. My sailing experience makes little difference to either of those options.
Not looking at winter (I'm not as daft as a brush, and I'd otherwise miss the ski season), probably April to July or thereabouts.
But even if I did do it myself, I would know to check weather patterns and irregularities.
First rule of sailing is prudence, which I have by the bucketload.
I may have come across as one of those idiots who buys a boat in Orkey on eBay and expects to motor it back to the Norfolk Broads in an afternoon, but I can assure you, I'm not.
I have twenty years of saling experience, ten of which with my own boat, three of which in the Med. I know my way around a yacht, tide table, an charts.
So, back to deliveries....
But even if I did do it myself, I would know to check weather patterns and irregularities.
First rule of sailing is prudence, which I have by the bucketload.
I may have come across as one of those idiots who buys a boat in Orkey on eBay and expects to motor it back to the Norfolk Broads in an afternoon, but I can assure you, I'm not.
I have twenty years of saling experience, ten of which with my own boat, three of which in the Med. I know my way around a yacht, tide table, an charts.
So, back to deliveries....
Done that sort of delivery many times. The type of boat and state of it is the most important thing. The normal route would be one hit to Gib and then one hit to the UK. Skipper and mate maybe with a third if its not a summer delivery and worse weather is likely.
Best guess would be 20-25 days on the water to get it back. Cost wise you'd be looking at around £3-4k crewing costs plus provisioning and flights.
Boat would need all safety kit to proper levels and service dates, rig inspection, sails checked and full service and check of engine. Insurance from you and any good delivery skipper will have their own liability insurance to cover them making a cock up.
So budget about £6k to get everything done and it sailed back for you.
Best guess would be 20-25 days on the water to get it back. Cost wise you'd be looking at around £3-4k crewing costs plus provisioning and flights.
Boat would need all safety kit to proper levels and service dates, rig inspection, sails checked and full service and check of engine. Insurance from you and any good delivery skipper will have their own liability insurance to cover them making a cock up.
So budget about £6k to get everything done and it sailed back for you.
SpeedYellow said:
Done that sort of delivery many times. The type of boat and state of it is the most important thing. The normal route would be one hit to Gib and then one hit to the UK. Skipper and mate maybe with a third if its not a summer delivery and worse weather is likely.
Best guess would be 20-25 days on the water to get it back. Cost wise you'd be looking at around £3-4k crewing costs plus provisioning and flights.
Boat would need all safety kit to proper levels and service dates, rig inspection, sails checked and full service and check of engine. Insurance from you and any good delivery skipper will have their own liability insurance to cover them making a cock up.
So budget about £6k to get everything done and it sailed back for you.
Perfect. Just perfect. Thank you thank you thank you.Best guess would be 20-25 days on the water to get it back. Cost wise you'd be looking at around £3-4k crewing costs plus provisioning and flights.
Boat would need all safety kit to proper levels and service dates, rig inspection, sails checked and full service and check of engine. Insurance from you and any good delivery skipper will have their own liability insurance to cover them making a cock up.
So budget about £6k to get everything done and it sailed back for you.
It's a 6-8 year old yacht I'm looking for, and I would actually like to spend a couple of weeks on her myself in Croatia first, to make sure all is in order personally before letting her rip with a delivery skipper. Likewise kit, I will have it (or if not, buy it) for myself anyway, so would make sure it's on the boat for the delivery trip.
Any idea what the market is like for respected delivery skippers? Has the bottom fallen out of it (pardon the pun) since the crash, or has it meant more people moving boats second hand instead of buying new? Just in case I decide to go for it and need a rush job.
Thank you so much for that, it's invaluable information that's almost impossible to get online sensibly.
The delivery skipper market is strange now.
There are a few of us older people (40's seems to be older now in this business) around with a few trips around the planet that don't want to be full time on someone's boat and do deliveries mainly word of mouth and working for manufactures. We often get beaten on price for advertised deliveries but generally make a decent living.
The guys who beat us are the new generation of skippers that entered with the intent to make lots of money and live the lifestyle. They have done zero to hero type courses typically to get tickets and now do deliveries for CV and mile building as the step up to get a full time skipper job. Some are great others down right scary.
Finally there are the delivery companies like PYD etc out there.
When buying safety kit remember if its coming back around to the UK to get ocean spec rafts etc.
There are a few of us older people (40's seems to be older now in this business) around with a few trips around the planet that don't want to be full time on someone's boat and do deliveries mainly word of mouth and working for manufactures. We often get beaten on price for advertised deliveries but generally make a decent living.
The guys who beat us are the new generation of skippers that entered with the intent to make lots of money and live the lifestyle. They have done zero to hero type courses typically to get tickets and now do deliveries for CV and mile building as the step up to get a full time skipper job. Some are great others down right scary.
Finally there are the delivery companies like PYD etc out there.
When buying safety kit remember if its coming back around to the UK to get ocean spec rafts etc.
Maser, let me know if you need any safety kit, I can supply rafts and pretty much anything marine related you need. My girlfriend also arranges worldwide boat deliveries and has a lot of contacts.
I was also going to recommend speaking to Kurt, but I've just realised he's Speedyellow, and you've already done so!
I'm sure Kurt has loads of experience in this area already, but my brother's ship regularly darts round Gib and through the Med to the Middle East, so he's well aware of the conditions if you want to chat with him, although his ship is considerably larger!!
I was also going to recommend speaking to Kurt, but I've just realised he's Speedyellow, and you've already done so!
I'm sure Kurt has loads of experience in this area already, but my brother's ship regularly darts round Gib and through the Med to the Middle East, so he's well aware of the conditions if you want to chat with him, although his ship is considerably larger!!
Maser / Mossy apologies I may have misread the initial post but assumed you were looking for advice to bring her on her own bottom by yourself.
If it is a purely commercial operation then Speedyellow has all the right advice.
Only thing I would add, and SY is the man to tell you this, that generally wear rates + delivery skipper costs are considered to be on a par with shipping costs so it doesn't seem to matter which way you go with it.
That said finer detail of boat size and age will show a slight benefit one way or the other but I am willing to guess it makes little difference either way.
In either case there are tossers in this world that will f
k up your pride and joy, it matters not to them whether it is on the water or on the back of a lorry as I said to you in my pm.
If it is a purely commercial operation then Speedyellow has all the right advice.
Only thing I would add, and SY is the man to tell you this, that generally wear rates + delivery skipper costs are considered to be on a par with shipping costs so it doesn't seem to matter which way you go with it.
That said finer detail of boat size and age will show a slight benefit one way or the other but I am willing to guess it makes little difference either way.
In either case there are tossers in this world that will f
k up your pride and joy, it matters not to them whether it is on the water or on the back of a lorry as I said to you in my pm. Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff