Buying a 964 as a fixer project with my pops?? Help!
Discussion
Hi,
My dads just turned 60 and we've decided we'd like to buy a Porsche 911 as cheaply as practically possible and then spend bits and pieces of time fixing her up. He's very handy with mechanics and I'm his keen apprentice! We both like the 964 models so are vaguely thinking along those lines..
My question (or questions) are whether fixing up a 911 is an achievable project and then where is a good place to start looking for a suitable car in need of a new loving home??
Any help would be hugely appreciated!! Thanks in advance people
Dunc.
My dads just turned 60 and we've decided we'd like to buy a Porsche 911 as cheaply as practically possible and then spend bits and pieces of time fixing her up. He's very handy with mechanics and I'm his keen apprentice! We both like the 964 models so are vaguely thinking along those lines..
My question (or questions) are whether fixing up a 911 is an achievable project and then where is a good place to start looking for a suitable car in need of a new loving home??
Any help would be hugely appreciated!! Thanks in advance people
Dunc.
964 are great cars. Initially they were over looked as many had the RMS issue, and would require rebuilds due to lack of care, but now/over the last couple of years as the prices of the 993 have gone through the roof the next best option is a 964.
Great cars, I used to own a C2 and it truely was an everyday car for me. Loved it. Are they cars that you can work on absolutely. Are they reliable absolutely. Prices are very steep, Tara's are at the bottom end of the market.
Great cars, I used to own a C2 and it truely was an everyday car for me. Loved it. Are they cars that you can work on absolutely. Are they reliable absolutely. Prices are very steep, Tara's are at the bottom end of the market.
You can work on everything at home. Suspension and brakes are easy as is everything around the engine. Whilst rebuilding an engine at home is possible, you have to bear in mind what you're working with. The engine is a high performance precision instrument. That means a deep understanding of its workings and scrupulous cleanliness when assembling, with equipment that no home tech will have. You can of course outsource much of this. The parts cost for an engine rebuild will scare you.
Look for rust especially around the windscreen, rear window, underneath the side skirts and where the front wings meet the scuttle. This is pro repair only.
Look for rust especially around the windscreen, rear window, underneath the side skirts and where the front wings meet the scuttle. This is pro repair only.
Difficult cars for a home restoration...the 964 even more so than an impact bumper car. Problem is that it isn't like it was when I owned these cars and the worst I might have had to deal with was a corroded oil pipe, heat exchanger or heater butterfly. Nowadays, a 'fixer-upper' will need bodywork and even skilled people have issues where rot is concerned on a 911...it isn't something you can fix at home with a mig welder and a couple of axle stands.
This really is a great community isn't it!! Thanks to all of you guys for your help.. really good stuff to be thinking about..
The thing with what i want is that;
(a) we don't have £20,000 now to spend on an immaculate 911 but i see fixing one up as a sort of installment plan that will probably end up costing about the same but we can spread it over a few years.
and
(b) He wouldn't like me saying so but, my pops isn't getting any younger and i really like the idea of having something that'll last that i'll always be able to look at and know that the two of us made it!
Do any of you helpful fellows have suggestions of where to get started looking for less loved porches?? is there somewhere or is it just a long slog until you stumble across a one off somewhere? I've had a quick trawl of google with no joy but i reckon theres a way to go down that avenue still.. as soon as i get the time!!
Thanks again guys.
The thing with what i want is that;
(a) we don't have £20,000 now to spend on an immaculate 911 but i see fixing one up as a sort of installment plan that will probably end up costing about the same but we can spread it over a few years.
and
(b) He wouldn't like me saying so but, my pops isn't getting any younger and i really like the idea of having something that'll last that i'll always be able to look at and know that the two of us made it!
Do any of you helpful fellows have suggestions of where to get started looking for less loved porches?? is there somewhere or is it just a long slog until you stumble across a one off somewhere? I've had a quick trawl of google with no joy but i reckon theres a way to go down that avenue still.. as soon as i get the time!!
Thanks again guys.
This is going to sound stupid but i don't really have one of yet??.. My heart is set on a porsche - I've always loved them and i've resolved to own one ever since i was a kid!.. I guess once we can look at what we can get for different amounts of money we can form a plan how much of a fixer upper we start off with?!.. Does that help??
Duncan911 said:
This is going to sound stupid but i don't really have one of yet??.. My heart is set on a porsche - I've always loved them and i've resolved to own one ever since i was a kid!.. I guess once we can look at what we can get for different amounts of money we can form a plan how much of a fixer upper we start off with?!.. Does that help??
Well you will need to think what you want to spend to start with or you will never move forward.do you have £14k to start with?
sportsandclassic said:
Well you will need to think what you want to spend to start with or you will never move forward.
do you have £14k to start with?
probably not no do you have £14k to start with?
Why do you pick that figure?? are you saying that 14K is a point that you start at to get anything worthwhile to work on and everything cheaper is just trash?
PH is relatively light on 964 knowledge - head over to http://forums.rennlist.com & the 964 section for experiences & costs to refurb. Some really good threads full of before and after pics.
However as said above - they're not cheap cars - you could pick one up from £7-8k for a runner, but you're likely to spend that again to get it into a decent state. However you'll have a great time doing it, any specialist work can be sent to an appropriate place, rest can be done at home.
There were never many 964's but cheap ones do crop up on ebay, PH & autotrader.
However as said above - they're not cheap cars - you could pick one up from £7-8k for a runner, but you're likely to spend that again to get it into a decent state. However you'll have a great time doing it, any specialist work can be sent to an appropriate place, rest can be done at home.
There were never many 964's but cheap ones do crop up on ebay, PH & autotrader.
Hello,
£14k was just a starting point. So you do have a budget then?
You are going to find that older 911 cars cost a fortune to repair and maintain. Engine and gearbox work can run into £££££'s let alone body work.
I am afraid you are going to need a 964 for around £5k if it needs body work and mechanical work too. This would only just about work out in my opinion.
Not trying to put you off it but put you in the picture as far as cost's would be.
Mike
£14k was just a starting point. So you do have a budget then?
You are going to find that older 911 cars cost a fortune to repair and maintain. Engine and gearbox work can run into £££££'s let alone body work.
I am afraid you are going to need a 964 for around £5k if it needs body work and mechanical work too. This would only just about work out in my opinion.
Not trying to put you off it but put you in the picture as far as cost's would be.
Mike
Buying a 964 as a "fixer project" imo just won't work. My reasoning is. £20,000 will find you a nice, well cared for car with good service history. Oil leaks sorted and maybe a top end refresh. £10,000 will buy you a poor example, that hasn't been looked after and showing signs of corrosion. You'll spend £20,000 fixing it up, probably more depending how much of a dog it is and you know what. It still won't be as nice as an original well cared for car. As good as your dad maybe with spanners, the Porsche parts cost can be very expensive.
N24 said:
PH is relatively light on 964 knowledge - head over to http://forums.rennlist.com & the 964 section for experiences & costs to refurb. Some really good threads full of before and after pics.
However as said above - they're not cheap cars - you could pick one up from £7-8k for a runner, but you're likely to spend that again to get it into a decent state. However you'll have a great time doing it, any specialist work can be sent to an appropriate place, rest can be done at home.
There were never many 964's but cheap ones do crop up on ebay, PH & autotrader.
Thank you.. I'm definitely spending tomorrow night combing through this site!! Really - Thanks.. At this stage i need to vastly increase my sources of information so that i can get this right.. Your post is very encouraging though and i am really looking forward to the project!! However as said above - they're not cheap cars - you could pick one up from £7-8k for a runner, but you're likely to spend that again to get it into a decent state. However you'll have a great time doing it, any specialist work can be sent to an appropriate place, rest can be done at home.
There were never many 964's but cheap ones do crop up on ebay, PH & autotrader.
sportsandclassic said:
Hello,
£14k was just a starting point. So you do have a budget then?
You are going to find that older 911 cars cost a fortune to repair and maintain. Engine and gearbox work can run into £££££'s let alone body work.
I am afraid you are going to need a 964 for around £5k if it needs body work and mechanical work too. This would only just about work out in my opinion.
Not trying to put you off it but put you in the picture as far as cost's would be.
Mike
Thanks, Mike..£14k was just a starting point. So you do have a budget then?
You are going to find that older 911 cars cost a fortune to repair and maintain. Engine and gearbox work can run into £££££'s let alone body work.
I am afraid you are going to need a 964 for around £5k if it needs body work and mechanical work too. This would only just about work out in my opinion.
Not trying to put you off it but put you in the picture as far as cost's would be.
Mike
I don't think anyone on here so far would come onto a thread just to put someone off! - Everyone has been so helpful, its cool!
I really appreciate people's honesty.. In my case, it doesn't need to work out as cheaper (or really it doesn't matter if it ends up costing more?!) The main thing is enjoying making something that i will hopefully then i will always have and doing it at a rate the means we can physically afford to do it.
Other people have suggested maybe looking at older models than the 964. Would you agree that that would seem like a more practical thing to do as a home project??
Cheers
Dunc.
andy102 said:
Personally I would look for an older 911, the 964 is complex and expensive mechanically to do anything with.
I've had problems that even Porsche spent weeks diagnosing.
An SC or pre-impact bumper car is much easier to work on in a home garage.
As much as i want to say that i don't want to get an older model - this could just be the best advice i'll get. Going to go and look at a wider range of models and see whats what. In your opinion whats a good model that strikes a good balance to a couple of guys fixing up in their own garage??I've had problems that even Porsche spent weeks diagnosing.
An SC or pre-impact bumper car is much easier to work on in a home garage.
Thanks
Dunc.
A 964 certainly can be a fixer up. That was exactly my aim 5 years ago. Here's my blog to give you an idea of what can be done (use the dates on the right side to start at the beginning):
http://boxsey.blogspot.co.uk/
However, everyone is right about the costs involved. Body and engine work is very expensive if you need experts to do that for you (I do). Some of the prices for new parts are ludicrously expensive. Used parts have also gone up a lot too and are often no better than the one you're replacing!
At the time I bought the car, a sound 964 manual coupe could be bought for about £10K but prices have gone up since then. The same money now wouldn't buy much unless you got very lucky. On the plus side, if you did find something reasonable there's plenty you can do yourself on the brakes, suspension, parts of the engine, interior, etc. You just need to find someone selling one that has a sound body and engine that hasn't cottoned on yet to the recent upsurge in the popularity of the 964. Then bite their hand off.
http://boxsey.blogspot.co.uk/
However, everyone is right about the costs involved. Body and engine work is very expensive if you need experts to do that for you (I do). Some of the prices for new parts are ludicrously expensive. Used parts have also gone up a lot too and are often no better than the one you're replacing!
At the time I bought the car, a sound 964 manual coupe could be bought for about £10K but prices have gone up since then. The same money now wouldn't buy much unless you got very lucky. On the plus side, if you did find something reasonable there's plenty you can do yourself on the brakes, suspension, parts of the engine, interior, etc. You just need to find someone selling one that has a sound body and engine that hasn't cottoned on yet to the recent upsurge in the popularity of the 964. Then bite their hand off.
First off, everything, and I mean everything on a Porsche cost a f cking fortune.
Headlights, £250, second hand still a oner, and usually a bit rubbish.
Decent Fuch alloys, between 600 and 1400.
RS Cup ones, £2000.
Thats without rubber.
Buy a cheap 911, and you'll still do bundles in parts.
Clutch kit, £350.etc etc.
ECU failure, a grand.
Suspension refresh, two grand, and thats DIY.
Gearbox rebuild, a couple of grand all day.
And you can only get the parts from Zuffenhausen.
Buy a wrong 964, and spin out £3000 doing an engine top end.
and believe me, garagistas rub their hands with glee when you approach them.
An aquaintance, PeterS, bought a 964, and the bodged engine, once out, now requires a ten G rebuild.
964's are topping out to ridiculous levels at the moment.
A C2 with about 115000 miles on it, in any sort of order will be sixteen or seventeen bags all day.
You'll find C4's easier, but thats because theyre less 911-ish.
You'll pick an impact bumper 3.2 Carrera for 12000 to 15000, but somehow all the good ones get passsed on from one owner to another quickly.
3.2's are getting just damn difficult to find.
Oh you'll find Targas and convertibles, but the coupe is the one.
Lots of guys used to buy left hookers, because they were cheaper over here.
Now all the krauts have come over and brought them back home.
911's are dearer in Europe now.
You rarely see LHD Pork over here now, they're just too dear!
You'd be better of looking at into this with at least 15 grand in your bin, and then take your time.
Theres a few good buyers guides out there.
Join Impact Bumpers.com, or 911UK.com, you'll get the idea.
Done, they're so nice, its just getting them done.
Go into it with your eyes open.
Headlights, £250, second hand still a oner, and usually a bit rubbish.
Decent Fuch alloys, between 600 and 1400.
RS Cup ones, £2000.
Thats without rubber.
Buy a cheap 911, and you'll still do bundles in parts.
Clutch kit, £350.etc etc.
ECU failure, a grand.
Suspension refresh, two grand, and thats DIY.
Gearbox rebuild, a couple of grand all day.
And you can only get the parts from Zuffenhausen.
Buy a wrong 964, and spin out £3000 doing an engine top end.
and believe me, garagistas rub their hands with glee when you approach them.
An aquaintance, PeterS, bought a 964, and the bodged engine, once out, now requires a ten G rebuild.
964's are topping out to ridiculous levels at the moment.
A C2 with about 115000 miles on it, in any sort of order will be sixteen or seventeen bags all day.
You'll find C4's easier, but thats because theyre less 911-ish.
You'll pick an impact bumper 3.2 Carrera for 12000 to 15000, but somehow all the good ones get passsed on from one owner to another quickly.
3.2's are getting just damn difficult to find.
Oh you'll find Targas and convertibles, but the coupe is the one.
Lots of guys used to buy left hookers, because they were cheaper over here.
Now all the krauts have come over and brought them back home.
911's are dearer in Europe now.
You rarely see LHD Pork over here now, they're just too dear!
You'd be better of looking at into this with at least 15 grand in your bin, and then take your time.
Theres a few good buyers guides out there.
Join Impact Bumpers.com, or 911UK.com, you'll get the idea.
Done, they're so nice, its just getting them done.
Go into it with your eyes open.
stuttgartmetal said:
First off, everything, and I mean everything on a Porsche cost a f cking fortune.
Headlights, £250, second hand still a oner, and usually a bit rubbish.
Decent Fuch alloys, between 600 and 1400.
RS Cup ones, £2000.
Thats without rubber.
Buy a cheap 911, and you'll still do bundles in parts.
Clutch kit, £350.etc etc.
ECU failure, a grand.
Suspension refresh, two grand, and thats DIY.
Gearbox rebuild, a couple of grand all day.
And you can only get the parts from Zuffenhausen.
Buy a wrong 964, and spin out £3000 doing an engine top end.
and believe me, garagistas rub their hands with glee when you approach them.
An aquaintance, PeterS, bought a 964, and the bodged engine, once out, now requires a ten G rebuild.
964's are topping out to ridiculous levels at the moment.
A C2 with about 115000 miles on it, in any sort of order will be sixteen or seventeen bags all day.
You'll find C4's easier, but thats because theyre less 911-ish.
Done, they're so nice, its just getting them done.
Go into it with your eyes open.
Though I agree with alot stated above, don't let the 'Possible disaster' freak you out. Eyes open and a bit of nonse and you can get a good car. Bodywork is the major thing now. Most have had some kind of engine work over the years already.Headlights, £250, second hand still a oner, and usually a bit rubbish.
Decent Fuch alloys, between 600 and 1400.
RS Cup ones, £2000.
Thats without rubber.
Buy a cheap 911, and you'll still do bundles in parts.
Clutch kit, £350.etc etc.
ECU failure, a grand.
Suspension refresh, two grand, and thats DIY.
Gearbox rebuild, a couple of grand all day.
And you can only get the parts from Zuffenhausen.
Buy a wrong 964, and spin out £3000 doing an engine top end.
and believe me, garagistas rub their hands with glee when you approach them.
An aquaintance, PeterS, bought a 964, and the bodged engine, once out, now requires a ten G rebuild.
964's are topping out to ridiculous levels at the moment.
A C2 with about 115000 miles on it, in any sort of order will be sixteen or seventeen bags all day.
You'll find C4's easier, but thats because theyre less 911-ish.
Done, they're so nice, its just getting them done.
Go into it with your eyes open.
Remember, service history is everything, mileage is nothing. Sooner have 180K 964 that had full history than a 80K with not.
Also remember Porsche tax. IE get OEM but take care checking out where you can get the same part but without the Porsche sticker on the box, Same part, same maker .... different box. A great example is brake discs & pads, another is dampers ... lots of money to be saved there.
Some electrical parts that fit a VW or the like are the same part that fits a 964. ... less than half the price.
I've even bought OEM parts but not listed as Porsche, saving a small fortune, when the part has arrived, it was in a Porsche box.
A good example is headlamps and the above stating they cost a fortune. Check out the MGB RV8 that Rover brought out in the early nineties ......MG parts are usually cheap as chips, see how much they charge for a replacement..... They used Porsche 964 headlamps.
If you have the time to scan the likes of ebay, (I got a set of 17" Cup2s off there for £350.00 with two brand new tyres on the back, tyres alone were worth £300.00, they had done less than 100 miles) or sort out where parts for Porsche are used on other cars, you can save a wad. It seems you will have the time to do this, and it can become a fun part of the rebuild.
Oh and one final thing. Your old man aint old, or past it at sixty.
Edited by Wozy68 on Tuesday 22 January 08:36
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