How far away are we from a 300mph road car?
Discussion
As it seems every few months a car builder claims a new top speed record. I wonder how far off from a 300mph road car we are. Do you think we will ever have one? I know how hard it would be to achieve this. But we thought a 200mph road car was impossible in the 80s till the F40 popped up and now 200mph+ is common place in the super car world.
There is some equation that highlights just how much extra 'shove' is needed with each mph, once you're up in the 200's mph. I think to go from 260 odd - 300 requires a HUGE amount of extra power.
Not to mention keeping the thing stable and finding tyres that will allow it. GP cars 50 years ago were hitting 180mph so 200 I don't think was a huge ask but 300?? I'd be surprised if we see it in the next 10 years.
Not to mention keeping the thing stable and finding tyres that will allow it. GP cars 50 years ago were hitting 180mph so 200 I don't think was a huge ask but 300?? I'd be surprised if we see it in the next 10 years.
Fire99 said:
There is some equation that highlights just how much extra 'shove' is needed with each mph, once you're up in the 200's mph. I think to go from 260 odd - 300 requires a HUGE amount of extra power.
Not to mention keeping the thing stable and finding tyres that will allow it. GP cars 50 years ago were hitting 180mph so 200 I don't think was a huge ask but 300?? I'd be surprised if we see it in the next 10 years.
Not exactly. The air resistance increases by the square of velocity, if memory serves, so you can either increase power massively, or reduce drag massively. The Veyron makes quite a lot of drag by dint of being so huge; if it was thin and pointy it would need much less power to go fast.Not to mention keeping the thing stable and finding tyres that will allow it. GP cars 50 years ago were hitting 180mph so 200 I don't think was a huge ask but 300?? I'd be surprised if we see it in the next 10 years.
Fire99 said:
There is some equation that highlights just how much extra 'shove' is needed with each mph, once you're up in the 200's mph. I think to go from 260 odd - 300 requires a HUGE amount of extra power.
Not to mention keeping the thing stable and finding tyres that will allow it. GP cars 50 years ago were hitting 180mph so 200 I don't think was a huge ask but 300?? I'd be surprised if we see it in the next 10 years.
Someone clever could probably plot a curve of power against top speed. Not to mention keeping the thing stable and finding tyres that will allow it. GP cars 50 years ago were hitting 180mph so 200 I don't think was a huge ask but 300?? I'd be surprised if we see it in the next 10 years.
When you think how much faster a Veyron is than a car with half the power (not much in the scheme of things) you can imagine how much power would be needed to do 300.
(sticks finger in air)
2,000+ bhp?
Here's how you do it...
http://www.bobnorwood.com/300%20mph%C2%A0%20The%20...
Basically, if you have a car that can do 200mph with ~500bhp you'd need to increase it to ~1600 to hit 300mph.
http://www.bobnorwood.com/300%20mph%C2%A0%20The%20...
Basically, if you have a car that can do 200mph with ~500bhp you'd need to increase it to ~1600 to hit 300mph.
davepoth said:
Fire99 said:
There is some equation that highlights just how much extra 'shove' is needed with each mph, once you're up in the 200's mph. I think to go from 260 odd - 300 requires a HUGE amount of extra power.
Not to mention keeping the thing stable and finding tyres that will allow it. GP cars 50 years ago were hitting 180mph so 200 I don't think was a huge ask but 300?? I'd be surprised if we see it in the next 10 years.
Not exactly. The air resistance increases by the square of velocity, if memory serves, so you can either increase power massively, or reduce drag massively. The Veyron makes quite a lot of drag by dint of being so huge; if it was thin and pointy it would need much less power to go fast.Not to mention keeping the thing stable and finding tyres that will allow it. GP cars 50 years ago were hitting 180mph so 200 I don't think was a huge ask but 300?? I'd be surprised if we see it in the next 10 years.
Above 200mph we can neglect anything except aero drag, so take the Veyron SuperSport. Not bothering about the new one yet as I haven't seen anything concrete. 1200bhp and 268mph means that, the aerodynamic design being unchanged and the gearing kept optimal, you'd need 1680bhp to achieve 300mph.
In the next ten years? Yes, probably, from someone like Shelby who doesn't have to be concerned about the longevity of the tyres or even the driveability of such a thing. You could use salt-biased land speed record tyres if you wanted, Goodyear do a 23" that's validated to 350mph, and to be honest with a 1700bhp engine that's compact enough to go in a reasonably low-drag body, you're gonna have bigger things to worry about than tyre suitability. Cooling, low-speed driveability and linear delivery, and if you thought 4000 mile services on Evos were too short..
It is, of course, possible to do it in a useable road car (insofar as the Veyron is useable). But the question is how much money you have to lose in such a project.
davepoth said:
Not exactly. The air resistance increases by the square of velocity, if memory serves, so you can either increase power massively, or reduce drag massively. The Veyron makes quite a lot of drag by dint of being so huge; if it was thin and pointy it would need much less power to go fast.
I don't remember the exact details but the issue being, I can't see a road car capable of 300mph being thin and pointy.. Part of the Veyron's sheer ability is that it's packaged in a road legal body that can be driven by the average chimp.Caparo?? I still don't buy it. That needs lots of downforce to keep any degree of stability. I can't see that getting anywhere close.
McSam said:
Yes, but as P=Fv the power required actually increases with the cube of velocity, meaning a serious of extra power needed to achieve "just 10mph more" when you get to big speeds.
Above 200mph we can neglect anything except aero drag, so take the Veyron SuperSport. Not bothering about the new one yet as I haven't seen anything concrete. 1200bhp and 268mph means that, the aerodynamic design being unchanged and the gearing kept optimal, you'd need 1680bhp to achieve 300mph.
In the next ten years? Yes, probably, from someone like Shelby who doesn't have to be concerned about the longevity of the tyres or even the driveability of such a thing. You could use salt-biased land speed record tyres if you wanted, Goodyear do a 23" that's validated to 350mph, and to be honest with a 1700bhp engine that's compact enough to go in a reasonably low-drag body, you're gonna have bigger things to worry about than tyre suitability. Cooling, low-speed driveability and linear delivery, and if you thought 4000 mile services on Evos were too short..
It is, of course, possible to do it in a useable road car (insofar as the Veyron is useable). But the question is how much money you have to lose in such a project.
That all sounds good to me. I'm gonna still stick my neck out and say I don't think we'll see a genuine 300mph from a production road car in 10 years.. Time will tell of course Above 200mph we can neglect anything except aero drag, so take the Veyron SuperSport. Not bothering about the new one yet as I haven't seen anything concrete. 1200bhp and 268mph means that, the aerodynamic design being unchanged and the gearing kept optimal, you'd need 1680bhp to achieve 300mph.
In the next ten years? Yes, probably, from someone like Shelby who doesn't have to be concerned about the longevity of the tyres or even the driveability of such a thing. You could use salt-biased land speed record tyres if you wanted, Goodyear do a 23" that's validated to 350mph, and to be honest with a 1700bhp engine that's compact enough to go in a reasonably low-drag body, you're gonna have bigger things to worry about than tyre suitability. Cooling, low-speed driveability and linear delivery, and if you thought 4000 mile services on Evos were too short..
It is, of course, possible to do it in a useable road car (insofar as the Veyron is useable). But the question is how much money you have to lose in such a project.
firemanSimon said:
I thought something Aerodynamically like Caparo T1 with 1800bhp would stand a chance
I think the immense downforce the caparo creates at high speed would count it out.Tyres and high power reliability are the main things stopping a road car achieving 300mph for now I suspect.
Johnnytheboy said:
Someone clever could probably plot a curve of power against top speed.
Indeed This is using the Veyron's aerodynamic performance as an example:
Also, re. the Caparo, it's not a great starting point as it won't have been optimised for low-drag performance. It doesn't need to make that much downforce to keep it stable, it's not like "light cars take off without big wings", it just has the downforce because it's designed for cornering performace. If you want an idea of how it should look for best aero performance, see streamliners like this:
Edited for swapping to a clearer graph.
Edited by McSam on Monday 21st January 21:46
McSam said:
Yes, but as P=Fv the power required actually increases with the cube of velocity, meaning a serious of extra power needed to achieve "just 10mph more" when you get to big speeds.
Above 200mph we can neglect anything except aero drag, so take the Veyron SuperSport. Not bothering about the new one yet as I haven't seen anything concrete. 1200bhp and 268mph means that, the aerodynamic design being unchanged and the gearing kept optimal, you'd need 1680bhp to achieve 300mph.
In the next ten years? Yes, probably, from someone like Shelby who doesn't have to be concerned about the longevity of the tyres or even the driveability of such a thing. You could use salt-biased land speed record tyres if you wanted, Goodyear do a 23" that's validated to 350mph, and to be honest with a 1700bhp engine that's compact enough to go in a reasonably low-drag body, you're gonna have bigger things to worry about than tyre suitability. Cooling, low-speed driveability and linear delivery, and if you thought 4000 mile services on Evos were too short..
It is, of course, possible to do it in a useable road car (insofar as the Veyron is useable). But the question is how much money you have to lose in such a project.
Cube? I was only one out then, that's pretty close. Above 200mph we can neglect anything except aero drag, so take the Veyron SuperSport. Not bothering about the new one yet as I haven't seen anything concrete. 1200bhp and 268mph means that, the aerodynamic design being unchanged and the gearing kept optimal, you'd need 1680bhp to achieve 300mph.
In the next ten years? Yes, probably, from someone like Shelby who doesn't have to be concerned about the longevity of the tyres or even the driveability of such a thing. You could use salt-biased land speed record tyres if you wanted, Goodyear do a 23" that's validated to 350mph, and to be honest with a 1700bhp engine that's compact enough to go in a reasonably low-drag body, you're gonna have bigger things to worry about than tyre suitability. Cooling, low-speed driveability and linear delivery, and if you thought 4000 mile services on Evos were too short..
It is, of course, possible to do it in a useable road car (insofar as the Veyron is useable). But the question is how much money you have to lose in such a project.
The motor doesn't seem to be the problem really - anyone like Hennessey who doesn't have to worry about minor things like being able to hit 300mph more than once between engine builds could build a big block to that sort of power.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_061...
I wonder how Bugatti would take to someone gutting a Veyron and putting a Chevy V8 in there?
Johnnytheboy said:
To be fair, a few years ago someone clever decided that somewhere about 180hp was the absolute upper limit for a FWD car, and that rule is dead and buried, so nothing's impossible.
Just vanishingly unlikely in this case.
I think it was SAAB that quoted that 175bhp was the practical limit for FWD. In some ways maybe they were not entirely wrong, since the likes of the Focus ST/RS etc are electronically limited in lower gears and also rely on traction control etc.Just vanishingly unlikely in this case.
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