What does the Porsche brand mean?
Discussion
I have enjoyed/endured some of the recent debate about the development of the Porsche brand and where it is going, especially the 911. Here is the view of someone new to the brand.
I took a friend to the PDE last week and he is new to the brand and new to high end cars. His business is going well and he is considering a signature car to celebrate his success. He is in his early 40s and really knows very little about cars. He is looking at everything from Bentley to Maserati with a Porsche right in the middle. He has test driven a 991 twice now and is particularly interested in a 4S cabriolet.
His views on Porsche are quite fascinating. He said he would never buy a Maser, lovely car but rubbish technology. Ferrari, great drive, great sound but poorly designed and engineered. Things just do not fit together. Bentley, has everything, but poor switchgear/interaction points. Aston Martin - both cabs he tried were unable to put their roofs up so left him seriously concerned about quality.
So back to Porsche - his view is that the latest cars are the epitome of engineering/technology/quality. Everything works and gives him confidence. He says that Porsche are always known for using the best technology. On this basis Porsche are right at the top of his favoured list. He recently went out in a Gen I 997 and felt it was outdated.
What is particularly interesting after the day at PDE is that is he is now torn between a 991 4S Cabriolet and a Panamera.
So there is a view of new Porsche customer - no heritage/baggage - and a view enhanced by a comment at PDE that Porsche sports cars are increasingly becoming a niche with over 70% of production being Cayennes and Panameras.
Maybe confirms what many feared but I believe my friend is typical of the new Porsche customer. And the only reason he knows what a GT3 is, is because I have had two. He didn't like going out in either of them!
I took a friend to the PDE last week and he is new to the brand and new to high end cars. His business is going well and he is considering a signature car to celebrate his success. He is in his early 40s and really knows very little about cars. He is looking at everything from Bentley to Maserati with a Porsche right in the middle. He has test driven a 991 twice now and is particularly interested in a 4S cabriolet.
His views on Porsche are quite fascinating. He said he would never buy a Maser, lovely car but rubbish technology. Ferrari, great drive, great sound but poorly designed and engineered. Things just do not fit together. Bentley, has everything, but poor switchgear/interaction points. Aston Martin - both cabs he tried were unable to put their roofs up so left him seriously concerned about quality.
So back to Porsche - his view is that the latest cars are the epitome of engineering/technology/quality. Everything works and gives him confidence. He says that Porsche are always known for using the best technology. On this basis Porsche are right at the top of his favoured list. He recently went out in a Gen I 997 and felt it was outdated.
What is particularly interesting after the day at PDE is that is he is now torn between a 991 4S Cabriolet and a Panamera.
So there is a view of new Porsche customer - no heritage/baggage - and a view enhanced by a comment at PDE that Porsche sports cars are increasingly becoming a niche with over 70% of production being Cayennes and Panameras.
Maybe confirms what many feared but I believe my friend is typical of the new Porsche customer. And the only reason he knows what a GT3 is, is because I have had two. He didn't like going out in either of them!
I think that most people want luxury goods rather than a car per se. Luxury goods are an exterior reflection of how well we're doing and how good we feel about our work lives and our status. Luxury goods make us feel good and make us feel treated, they are an important conduit through which we communicate to the outside world about who we are. It all seems worth it if there is some materialism there as a payoff.
Luxury goods though are deemed as such based upon their perceived quality, the fit and finish, the integrity and respectability of something. Steering feel, throttle response, manual gearboxes, none of these things have anything to do with luxury. In fact even looks dont come into it that much. Most people dont want the best looking car because it would be too ostentatious or singular. People like more common denominator looks that can blend in. Looks that arent ugly of course but are subtle and strongly suggestive of mechanical and engineering intergity rather than for the sake of out and out visual beauty alone. Porsche also have this part perfected as well. The way they drive ? Doesnt matter to most people I reckon, they just need to be 'good enough' with a decent amount of power.
I personally love the porsche brand for what it was but i like it now too as well for the regular cars, the cayennes and panameras in fact. Their modern day sports cars (cgt aside) wont ever be that special for me but i have changed my perception of them and now see them as a maker of great everyday mass produced performance cars. I would love a newer cayenne and would love a panamera too. Best cars in class, no doubt about it. I wouldnt mind a 991 either but hey, i wouldnt get into it thinking its a 911, i would treat it more as a smaller panamera and taking that view i dont think id ever be disappointed in it. For a weekend car give me an aircooled 911, a Scud, a Caterham or the fabulous new Exige V6 which i had the pleasure of testing last weekend.
Luxury goods though are deemed as such based upon their perceived quality, the fit and finish, the integrity and respectability of something. Steering feel, throttle response, manual gearboxes, none of these things have anything to do with luxury. In fact even looks dont come into it that much. Most people dont want the best looking car because it would be too ostentatious or singular. People like more common denominator looks that can blend in. Looks that arent ugly of course but are subtle and strongly suggestive of mechanical and engineering intergity rather than for the sake of out and out visual beauty alone. Porsche also have this part perfected as well. The way they drive ? Doesnt matter to most people I reckon, they just need to be 'good enough' with a decent amount of power.
I personally love the porsche brand for what it was but i like it now too as well for the regular cars, the cayennes and panameras in fact. Their modern day sports cars (cgt aside) wont ever be that special for me but i have changed my perception of them and now see them as a maker of great everyday mass produced performance cars. I would love a newer cayenne and would love a panamera too. Best cars in class, no doubt about it. I wouldnt mind a 991 either but hey, i wouldnt get into it thinking its a 911, i would treat it more as a smaller panamera and taking that view i dont think id ever be disappointed in it. For a weekend car give me an aircooled 911, a Scud, a Caterham or the fabulous new Exige V6 which i had the pleasure of testing last weekend.
Edited by jackal on Monday 21st January 23:31
Porsche are attracting a wider and more diverse range of customers these days, with their expanding range of cars aimed at differing markets.
It's interesting to understand what attracts the new non traditional buyers to the market. Your friend seems to be attracted by a perception of engineering quality and reliability. I wonder what has influenced this view?
To many of us beards, someone trying to choose between a pana and a 911 is baffling.
But maybe the reality is that they are not so different as we think.
It's interesting to understand what attracts the new non traditional buyers to the market. Your friend seems to be attracted by a perception of engineering quality and reliability. I wonder what has influenced this view?
To many of us beards, someone trying to choose between a pana and a 911 is baffling.
But maybe the reality is that they are not so different as we think.
It sounds quite accurate. I think that Porsche needed to grow, and to do so had to make products with broader appeal. When the Cayenne came out I thought it was a disastrous decision and a sure sign that the company would fail. Now I have one in the garage. I thought that the Pananamera would fail too..utterly. ( Do not follow me for investment advice). There is nothing wrong in moving to a broader market offering as the people who want stick-shift, raw, track focused cars are a small minority in the first place.
The brand now means GT luxury, fast saloons, SUVs, and some sports cars. Soon, with the Macan, it will be broadened further.
With few exceptions this has been true in other cases. I had a series of BMW M cars, but now they are really tuned versions of regular cars, with no unique engines like the used to for instance. Yet, they will sell better. If there were tens of thousands who wanted manual GT3s they would make them I suspect. I will hang on to mine, but even when I bought the last one I said to my wife that this might be the last car of its type that I might ever buy. That's life.
The brand now means GT luxury, fast saloons, SUVs, and some sports cars. Soon, with the Macan, it will be broadened further.
With few exceptions this has been true in other cases. I had a series of BMW M cars, but now they are really tuned versions of regular cars, with no unique engines like the used to for instance. Yet, they will sell better. If there were tens of thousands who wanted manual GT3s they would make them I suspect. I will hang on to mine, but even when I bought the last one I said to my wife that this might be the last car of its type that I might ever buy. That's life.
mollytherocker said:
Your friend seems to be attracted by a perception of engineering quality and reliability.
They are very simple things in reality - but things that Porsche do seem to do better than anyone else - especially today.Specifics: -
Two different models of Aston Martin could not get their cabs to close their soft tops - they both got stuck on closing - perception of poor technology/engineering
Ferrari California - the optional windbreak when fitted interfered with the seat and so the seat back was limited in movement (my friend is only 5' 10") - perception of poor design and execution. He also thought it was a 'mess' inside. Sounded fantastic though!!
Maserati - after an extended two day test drive he could not master the control system, failed to get the sat nav to work and was overwhelmed by the mass of buttons - perception of poor design.
Bentley - amazing car but poor and inconsistent switchgear
Porsche - everything seems to fit together well, (still) feels hewn from a solid form, easy to use, sounds great.
So by simply doing what it does well and consistently, in a package that seems beautifully put together, then he has a perception of technology and engineering.
Nothing about steering feel, or traction. Although all the cars he has driven are quick, that is a lesser consideration for him. He can drive however, didn't spin at all on the kick plate!!!
PS the new Cayenne Deisel is awesome with its 850nm!!!!
Porsche used to mean, for me, an iconic sports car brand with unrivalled quality and performance. That's why I bought one.
Now I perceive the brand as devalued by ceasing to focus on those factors and becoming another corporate brand with a full range to cover all markets and, more importantly, fragile mechanicals and poor customer service.
I still enjoy driving my 997, and haven't thought about changing it, but I very much doubt that I would be drawn back to Porsche if I did.
It seems ironic to see AM, Maser etc criticised for poor design and reliability when we are regularly reading of failed fuel filler caps, brake recalls, gearbox issues and multiple software updates on the 991. Not to mention cars being replaced.
Now I perceive the brand as devalued by ceasing to focus on those factors and becoming another corporate brand with a full range to cover all markets and, more importantly, fragile mechanicals and poor customer service.
I still enjoy driving my 997, and haven't thought about changing it, but I very much doubt that I would be drawn back to Porsche if I did.
It seems ironic to see AM, Maser etc criticised for poor design and reliability when we are regularly reading of failed fuel filler caps, brake recalls, gearbox issues and multiple software updates on the 991. Not to mention cars being replaced.
I don't think Porsche or any other marque should try too hard to be elitist. Whilst the demographics of the customer might have changed, I see no problem with that, the purists can still go out and buy the hardcore sports versions and no one is stopping them. If someone has made a success in life and wants to buy a car of their own choice, be it a Porsche or anything else, good luck to them! It's just snobbery that dictates who should and shouldn't be a Porsche owner.
REALIST123 said:
It seems ironic to see AM, Maser etc criticised for poor design and reliability when we are regularly reading of failed fuel filler caps, brake recalls, gearbox issues and multiple software updates on the 991. Not to mention cars being replaced.
Can you be specific regarding the software updates? I am not aware of any software updates - is this something I have missed?2,500 miles in two months (I did 5,000 in 18 months in my 997) with total reliability and enjoyment.
Funny thing 'perception of quality'.
I always wanted a 911 (rather than wanting a Porsche), so I bought a few and the drive was great, but the perception of 'quality' was seriously lacking. The RMS went on my 996, the 997's trim kept falling off (small things like the gearstick gaitor etc), the dealers wanted you to buy new discs/pads every 8k miles, and now I read with horror all the tales of bore scoring and engine failure rates..it's put me right off getting another one. The 'brand' has suffered since the watercooled cars came about in my opinion.
Saying that, if you get off the A roads and just drive them, they do what they say on the tin, and do it with far less fuss and expense than anything Italian. Hard to justify Italian running costs and service intervals when you stack them up against Pork on an objective basis...and that's why I dislike Pork now, it's made it impossible for me to rationally choose to run a 'rari...bstards!
Chuck
I always wanted a 911 (rather than wanting a Porsche), so I bought a few and the drive was great, but the perception of 'quality' was seriously lacking. The RMS went on my 996, the 997's trim kept falling off (small things like the gearstick gaitor etc), the dealers wanted you to buy new discs/pads every 8k miles, and now I read with horror all the tales of bore scoring and engine failure rates..it's put me right off getting another one. The 'brand' has suffered since the watercooled cars came about in my opinion.
Saying that, if you get off the A roads and just drive them, they do what they say on the tin, and do it with far less fuss and expense than anything Italian. Hard to justify Italian running costs and service intervals when you stack them up against Pork on an objective basis...and that's why I dislike Pork now, it's made it impossible for me to rationally choose to run a 'rari...bstards!
Chuck
cayman-black said:
I think you should put him right in thinking that a porsche is better quality than a Ferrari, masser , Aston, you of all people know this is not so!
I was merely reflecting his view 
He does make a good point though - the cars, especially now - have an incredible consistency and sense of quality in switchgear, interior etc. And it all seems to fit together. Other manufacturers struggle with this compared to Porsche.
Nothing to do with reliability. That he will learn later.
Old Trout said:
REALIST123 said:
It seems ironic to see AM, Maser etc criticised for poor design and reliability when we are regularly reading of failed fuel filler caps, brake recalls, gearbox issues and multiple software updates on the 991. Not to mention cars being replaced.
Can you be specific regarding the software updates? I am not aware of any software updates - is this something I have missed?2,500 miles in two months (I did 5,000 in 18 months in my 997) with total reliability and enjoyment.
Just because yours has been totally reliable doesn't mean they all are. I'm sure there is the odd AM and Maser out there that have been the same.
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