997 C2s High Miles Alarm bells?

[barrieeld]

OK I'm selling my car and have been offered a px against a 997 C2s with a decent spec inc chrono etc.

2 things...

It's done 112k

It has FPSH until the last 2 services then specialist.

I have heard a few things about the reliability of the 3.8 engines and was a bit reluctant to go for this but wondered what you guys on here thought? What should I be looking for on a car of this mileage? What are the main issues

P.S Its a manual.

[alexisn]

Get the number 6 bore boroscoped

[thegoose]

This is where the DME data can be useful. I once bought a 3 year old one done about 60k but had only done 1100 hours due to lots of motorway driving, most cars at similar hours would have done half the mileage, likely creating more wear in the process (stop start city use, more cold starts etc).

A boroscope test plus DME data as well as usual inspection is what you need to tell you if it's a good car or not, although the number on the dash will affect the maximum value.

[markiii]

I'd be tempted to say if its got that far without incident its probably ok

[mollytherocker]

markiii said:

I'd be tempted to say if its got that far without incident its probably ok

Interesting logic you have there.

How do you know its got that far without incident?
How do you know that it wasnt sold for a 'reason'?

etc, etc...

[anonymous-user]

mollytherocker said:

markiii said:

I'd be tempted to say IF its got that far without incident its probably ok

Interesting logic you have there.

How do you know its got that far without incident?
How do you know that it wasnt sold for a 'reason'?

etc, etc...

There is an IF in there ^

[markiii]

indeed, thats wa rather crucial to the point

[barrieeld]

How much is this test? What else should I look our for?

I've always bought hi mileage cars so the mileage doesn't bother me its just with sports cars such as these high miles could mean high bills

[David911RSR]

Firstly, you can check through the supporting paperwork to understand what has been replaced. Of the top of my head (and I am sure others can add to this) these are the items that may need replacing if they have not been recently renewed :

Brake Discs, pads and sensors
Rads
Air Con Condensor
Wheel Barings
Exhaust boxes
Manifold studs
Tyres
Suspension - Springs, shocks, arms, plus plus
Gear box linkage
Battery
RMS Seal
IMS
Clutch
Clutch slave cylinder
Windscreen
Air ducts
Cooling pipes
Brake pipes & hoses
Hand brake cables
Check for Cylinder scoring
Compression test
Plugs
Ignition coil packs
Drive shafts
GEO

Over time, all of the above needed doing on my car with the exception of the IMS, Wheel barings and the springs & Shocks however, most of the other suspension components were changed.

My 996 had covered 95k miles when I sold it. It was on Hartech's maintenance scheme. www.hartech.org

If this stacks up, I suggest you get the car inspected by a respected Specialist. A bore scope and compression test is recommended.

[barrieeld]

GULP! lets hope its not them all

[David911RSR]

barrieeld said:

GULP! lets hope its not them all

Most of it is considered consumables. As with most high mileage cars, parts wear out and need replacing.

[thegoose]

David911RSR said:

Most of it is considered consumables. As with most high mileage cars, parts wear out and need replacing.

I'd re-phrase that to say that based on the work they've done, parts wear out and need replacing. A high number on the odometer isn't necessarily an indication of having done lots of work (imagine a 3 hour 200 mile motorway drive and how little the clutch/suspension/gearbox/brakes etc get used during that journey compared to a week or two of daily use covering the same distance).

[Rockster]

David911RSR said:

Firstly, you can check through the supporting paperwork to understand what has been replaced. Of the top of my head (and I am sure others can add to this) these are the items that may need replacing if they have not been recently renewed :

Brake Discs, pads and sensors
Rads
Air Con Condensor
Wheel Barings
Exhaust boxes
Manifold studs
Tyres
Suspension - Springs, shocks, arms, plus plus
Gear box linkage
Battery
RMS Seal
IMS
Clutch
Clutch slave cylinder
Windscreen
Air ducts
Cooling pipes
Brake pipes & hoses
Hand brake cables
Check for Cylinder scoring
Compression test
Plugs
Ignition coil packs
Drive shafts
GEO

Over time, all of the above needed doing on my car with the exception of the IMS, Wheel barings and the springs & Shocks however, most of the other suspension components were changed.

My 996 had covered 95k miles when I sold it. It was on Hartech's maintenance scheme. www.hartech.org

If this stacks up, I suggest you get the car inspected by a respected Specialist. A bore scope and compression test is recommended.

Oh good Lord.

[993kimbo]

...and imagine what extra work an OPC would find. Just buy a new one, it might be cheaper.

[Rockster]

barrieeld said:

OK I'm selling my car and have been offered a px against a 997 C2s with a decent spec inc chrono etc.

2 things...

It's done 112k

It has FPSH until the last 2 services then specialist.

I have heard a few things about the reliability of the 3.8 engines and was a bit reluctant to go for this but wondered what you guys on here thought? What should I be looking for on a car of this mileage? What are the main issues

P.S Its a manual.

Check out the car. Thoroughly. It is just a used car.

If it checks out visually arrange a test ride then a drive. At least a 15 mile route. Varied to give the test driver a chance to demo the car in a variety of scenarios.

Back at the starting point then you take the car out over the same route and drive the car the same way.

If after this ride/drive test if you believe you can buy the car for a reasonable sum of money then arrange to have the car PPI'd. This looks for things you possibly can't see.

A DME overrev counter readout is obtained. Besides the obvious, this provides an engine runtime number that can be used to sort of sanity check the odometer.

Now the car has some miles and it might need some things: leaking water pump, worn out (or the "wrong" tires, worn brakes, or maybe even your test drive finds the clutch juddering or even slipping... Factor the cost to put these right into your offer.

If there are too many -- and this is a personal thing -- the owner may be moving the car on to avoid addressing all the things that were let go while he owned. But if it had FPSH until recently the car appears to have been if not loved, cherished.

Bore scope? Which cylinder? My opinion all this bore scope piffle is just a bunch of hooey but but make up your own mind, do what you think is best for you.

Compression test? The DME performs a check of each cylinder's output by measuring the acceleration imparted to the flywheel during the cylinder's power stroke. If it find this low (or high) it sets one or more misfire error codes identifying the cylinders and turns on the CEL.

This is why you want to visit the car cold, be sure the CEL comes on when you turn on the key and goes off when the engine starts and then stays off the whole test ride/drive thing.

Of course you also listen to the engine from its initial start to just before you shut it off listening for anything out of the ordinary.

If you want to have the engine compression tested so be it. Your call. If it was my car I'd tell you to pound sand...

Do it before the test ride/drive in case something gets messed up from the compression testing.

You still have to test ride/drive the car. The compression test won't even tell you if the engine will run or what it sounds like when (if) it runs but like this bore scope thing people seize on some appropriate technology for use at the inappropriate time.

[mollytherocker]

Rockster - are you saying that checking for bore scoring is not important or that boroscoping won't show it?

[David911RSR]

Rockster said:

David911RSR said:

Firstly, you can check through the supporting paperwork to understand what has been replaced. Of the top of my head (and I am sure others can add to this) these are the items that may need replacing if they have not been recently renewed :

Brake Discs, pads and sensors
Rads
Air Con Condensor
Wheel Barings
Exhaust boxes
Manifold studs
Tyres
Suspension - Springs, shocks, arms, plus plus
Gear box linkage
Battery
RMS Seal
IMS
Clutch
Clutch slave cylinder
Windscreen
Air ducts
Cooling pipes
Brake pipes & hoses
Hand brake cables
Check for Cylinder scoring
Compression test
Plugs
Ignition coil packs
Drive shafts
GEO

Over time, all of the above needed doing on my car with the exception of the IMS, Wheel barings and the springs & Shocks however, most of the other suspension components were changed.

My 996 had covered 95k miles when I sold it. It was on Hartech's maintenance scheme. www.hartech.org

If this stacks up, I suggest you get the car inspected by a respected Specialist. A bore scope and compression test is recommended.

Oh good Lord.

My post above is based on personal experience. My car was purchased new by a close friend and has every invoice for maintenance work performed. from 0 - 79,000, it did mostly motorway miles. I purchased it with 79,000 and sold it with 95,000 miles on the clock.

[alexisn]

I don't think the boroscope thing is a load of piffle !!!!! The most significant and probably most expensive problem that is by no means rare. Certain specialists will not buy a 997 without scoping number 6.

[hartech]

"Bore scope? Which cylinder? My opinion all this bore scope piffle is just a bunch of hooey but but make up your own mind, do what you think is best for you."


Perhaps the 100's of people who've sent engines here over the last few years have been dreaming about cylinder scoring, cracks, D chunk failure, oval cylinders etc !!!

I assure you that they are very real issues - we wouldn't be investing in £100000 worth of cylinder blocks for exchange worldwide distribution if it wasn't.

To say it's "piffle" is utter "twaddle".

Grant

Ps To the original poster, my general rule of thumb applies to any buyer of a Porsche of this era, but more so as the mileage gets higher - whether it be through a warranty, maintenance plan, own resources etc, ensure you're in the financial position to be able to fix the engine if it goes wrong. As the mileage gets higher, the bores will become more oval and the crank bearings will become more worn and naturally the engine moves closer towards the point when it will need a re-fresh, re-build, re-condition or technical upgrade etc.

[STiG911]

As I said to someone else recently, it's not just about the swish service stamps in the book, it's about the receipts and invoices to go with that, as these will actually detail anything over and above routine servicing. If the car has been serviced inside the Porsche network, you'll be able to call them, give them the VIN and they'll tell you (if asked politely) the items on the car that have been replaced.
Another item to add to the list is Alternator, a known weak point usually dead or dying after 6-7 years.
Also, a car that's done a lot of motorway miles won't have had it's engine stressed so much as a city-based car, so the bores may not be such a worry.
Also (I'm getting there, honest) pay attention to how the car is driven initially by the seller (if private), as the engine oil won't warm up to correct temp (about 90-100) for a good 4-5 miles. If he blats the car away from a cold standstill, then consider the car to have been treated with little mechanical sympathy, and get your coat...