German car engine reliability
Discussion
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9815860/G...
I have known some problems with BMW be engines from first hand experience, but also other brands too. Takes a long time to shake off a poor reputation or lose a good one - will this news make any difference?
I have known some problems with BMW be engines from first hand experience, but also other brands too. Takes a long time to shake off a poor reputation or lose a good one - will this news make any difference?
Interesting that Mercedes came third from top as I would think they sold a similar proportion of complicated diesels as the other German brands.
I guess MG was in last place partly due to the fact that they are no longer made, and the remaining models are all old and high mileage ones?
I guess MG was in last place partly due to the fact that they are no longer made, and the remaining models are all old and high mileage ones?
0a said:
Interesting that Mercedes came third from top as I would think they sold a similar proportion of complicated diesels as the other German brands.
I guess MG was in last place partly due to the fact that they are no longer made, and the remaining models are all old and high mileage ones?
I imagine someone will probably shout HEADGASKET soon, and in this instance, they'll probably be correct. Apart from the misdiagnosed 2.0 diesel (BMW) unit failings.I guess MG was in last place partly due to the fact that they are no longer made, and the remaining models are all old and high mileage ones?
Sadly, it's all true. A huge number of BMW's have the 2 litre diesel engine. In it's old M47 guise it had the well known swirl flaps and turbo failures. The newer N47 from 2007 ish has major timing chain problems as well as the turbo, DMF etc issues.
VAG have the 2.0TDi engine that is a dreadful heap of s
te. Replacing the lovely old 1.9, the 2.0 has a disater of an oil pump design that runs off the balance shafts at twice crank speed. The pump is okay, it's the hexagional drive spindle that fails followed shortly after by the rest of the engine. That's not to mention the head gaskets, injectors, flywheels etc. Just garbage.
I don't think maintenance has much to do with it. It's just over complexity, poor design and manufacturing faults. The typical response from BMW or VAG to an owner of a six year old car with a buggered engine is also less than honourable. However, marketing overcomes all, and buyers keep buying.
VAG have the 2.0TDi engine that is a dreadful heap of s
te. Replacing the lovely old 1.9, the 2.0 has a disater of an oil pump design that runs off the balance shafts at twice crank speed. The pump is okay, it's the hexagional drive spindle that fails followed shortly after by the rest of the engine. That's not to mention the head gaskets, injectors, flywheels etc. Just garbage.I don't think maintenance has much to do with it. It's just over complexity, poor design and manufacturing faults. The typical response from BMW or VAG to an owner of a six year old car with a buggered engine is also less than honourable. However, marketing overcomes all, and buyers keep buying.
iSore said:
Sadly, it's all true. A huge number of BMW's have the 2 litre diesel engine. In it's old M47 guise it had the well known swirl flaps and turbo failures. The newer N47 from 2007 ish has major timing chain problems as well as the turbo, DMF etc issues.
VAG have the 2.0TDi engine that is a dreadful heap of ste. Replacing the lovely old 1.9, the 2.0 has a disater of an oil pump design that runs off the balance shafts at twice crank speed. The pump is okay, it's the hexagional drive spindle that fails followed shortly after by the rest of the engine. That's not to mention the head gaskets, injectors, flywheels etc. Just garbage.
I don't think maintenance has much to do with it. It's just over complexity, poor design and manufacturing faults. The typical response from BMW or VAG to an owner of a six year old car with a buggered engine is also less than honourable. However, marketing overcomes all, and buyers keep buying.
+1 - good post.VAG have the 2.0TDi engine that is a dreadful heap of s
te. Replacing the lovely old 1.9, the 2.0 has a disater of an oil pump design that runs off the balance shafts at twice crank speed. The pump is okay, it's the hexagional drive spindle that fails followed shortly after by the rest of the engine. That's not to mention the head gaskets, injectors, flywheels etc. Just garbage.I don't think maintenance has much to do with it. It's just over complexity, poor design and manufacturing faults. The typical response from BMW or VAG to an owner of a six year old car with a buggered engine is also less than honourable. However, marketing overcomes all, and buyers keep buying.
The myth of German quality is beginning to be recognised even here in Germany (Süddeutsche Zeitung had an article recently, but can't find the link). Over the last couple of decades, German companies have been reducing quality and cutting costs in order to compete, not only in the car industry, but across the board. Occasionally here you find a company (usually small, family owned) that maintains it's standards, but they're few and far between.
I was also surprised that tradesmen appear to be just as incompetent as in the UK, and generally I have to repair their bodges. Our house, built 5 years ago, has nothing but problems. For example, the kitchen installation - they'd put blocks under only three corners of the washing machine (it vibrated until it fell off), I had to redo all the cabinet doors (and one still doesn't have enough room), and the pipework is such a mess that when using the dishwasher or washing machine, it kept bubbling up into the sink, so I had to start again myself. Our bathroom sink doesn't even have a U-bend, because it didn't fit.
However, the myth persists - and here you don't have a fraction of the consumer rights that you have in the UK. The customer is always wrong. To get anywhere, you need a letter from a lawyer.
The companies here trade on that myth - I just hope that before too long, more consumers realise they're being conned.
I was also surprised that tradesmen appear to be just as incompetent as in the UK, and generally I have to repair their bodges. Our house, built 5 years ago, has nothing but problems. For example, the kitchen installation - they'd put blocks under only three corners of the washing machine (it vibrated until it fell off), I had to redo all the cabinet doors (and one still doesn't have enough room), and the pipework is such a mess that when using the dishwasher or washing machine, it kept bubbling up into the sink, so I had to start again myself. Our bathroom sink doesn't even have a U-bend, because it didn't fit.
However, the myth persists - and here you don't have a fraction of the consumer rights that you have in the UK. The customer is always wrong. To get anywhere, you need a letter from a lawyer.
The companies here trade on that myth - I just hope that before too long, more consumers realise they're being conned.
In BMW's defence, they do make an astounding product. You can see how and where they took the time and spent the money to create a very nice car. But the reliability isn't good enough - I was chatting to a main dealer tech last night who's just cracking on with a 9000 mile 320d with the timing chain noise. Took the gearbox off to get to the back of the engine, and bits of the dual mass flywheel fell out on the floor.............
iSore said:
In BMW's defence, they do make an astounding product. You can see how and where they took the time and spent the money to create a very nice car. But the reliability isn't good enough - I was chatting to a main dealer tech last night who's just cracking on with a 9000 mile 320d with the timing chain noise. Took the gearbox off to get to the back of the engine, and bits of the dual mass flywheel fell out on the floor.............
My BMW 320i coupe was entirely reliable - in the dry weather. Come the rain/snow front end disconnected from the rear at the thought of a rain drop/snowflake. Also, locks completely froze up in winter. Trust me it is not easy climbing in from the passenger door over a high transmission tunnel in a skirt! Still, stopped anyone from stealing it - took 2 days to unfreeze locks.As the luxury brands move down by market niche, then maybe the same challenges are being faced by those brands starting off there with the need to keep costs down (and get whole sub-systems from the same suppliers). The will still always be a delay before a reputation gets changed. Probably be the time that any real issues get addressed.
Not a complete engine failure, but a colleague of mine had an egr failure on their just out of warranty, last of the mk2 Toyota avensis diesel. A nice bill of 2.5k and total loss of faith in the brand the result, so the Japanese aren't exempt.
Comments about massively complicated diesels are spot on. We have two diesels in the household - a vw pd and a Volvo 2.0. Which will break expensively first? Bets are open...
Comments about massively complicated diesels are spot on. We have two diesels in the household - a vw pd and a Volvo 2.0. Which will break expensively first? Bets are open...
samhodgson said:
Not a complete engine failure, but a colleague of mine had an egr failure on their just out of warranty, last of the mk2 Toyota avensis diesel. A nice bill of 2.5k and total loss of faith in the brand the result, so the Japanese aren't exempt.
Comments about massively complicated diesels are spot on. We have two diesels in the household - a vw pd and a Volvo 2.0. Which will break expensively first? Bets are open...
He was unfortunate, and maybe to lose faith in Toyota is understandable, but I hope he didn't replace his car with a BMW or AUDI. Whilst no manufacturer is exempt from having engine failures, but Honda's failure rate of 1 in 344, and Toyota's 1 in 171, is a tad better than BMW's 1 in 45 and Audi's 1 in 27 !Comments about massively complicated diesels are spot on. We have two diesels in the household - a vw pd and a Volvo 2.0. Which will break expensively first? Bets are open...
JensenA said:
He was unfortunate, and maybe to lose faith in Toyota is understandable, but I hope he didn't replace his car with a BMW or AUDI. Whilst no manufacturer is exempt from having engine failures, but Honda's failure rate of 1 in 344, and Toyota's 1 in 171, is a tad better than BMW's 1 in 45 and Audi's 1 in 27 !
Well said and every bit true. The japs lead the way in reliability!Gassing Station | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff