Aston Martin....The Future
Discussion
The future of Aston has been occupying my mind a lot recently. I first came to the brand in Jan 06, with an early V8V, lhd model, now have a Bamford Rose modified V8 Roadster, manual. I'm worried that despite the relative success compared to pre DB7 the company still doesn't generate sufficient cash to guarantee a healthy survival.
What to do? The recent investment, and rumoured collaboration with AMG, sounds interesting, but to my mind there could be a much greater play......to guarantee long term success. As I see it there are a few problems...
1 we copied Porsche......models that are way too similar. I love the look Aston have, but for non Aston aficionados, differentiating the cars is difficult. Porsche are successful now because of a very distinct product strategy...more later
2 pricing.... We all know that for most models, the sticker price ain't the real price! Entry to he Aston club comes pretty high!
3 performance.....we all want a but more, however straight from the factory the base cars are not gut wrenchingly fast,
My answers....
If you look at Porsche, 2 models gave them the volume to succeed, the Boxter and the SUV, Cayenne. Now I am not proposing huge product diversification now. But the Boxter concept is worthy of investigation.
Here's my opinion. An entry level V6 3.0 Litre Aston priced around £50 to £55K......with a relatively basic spec.... I know this is a lot more than a Boxter, but the Aston brand can probably carry it.
How to fund it.....how about using some of he investment to do a JV with Lotus?
The new V6 3.0 litre could be bolted together to make a "new" V12....
The new baby ...baby Aston would give a huge increase in sales and volume would do wonders for its future.
It worked for Porsche ......Jaguar just doing it.....it would great to secure the future and out AM on the map...discuss
What to do? The recent investment, and rumoured collaboration with AMG, sounds interesting, but to my mind there could be a much greater play......to guarantee long term success. As I see it there are a few problems...
1 we copied Porsche......models that are way too similar. I love the look Aston have, but for non Aston aficionados, differentiating the cars is difficult. Porsche are successful now because of a very distinct product strategy...more later
2 pricing.... We all know that for most models, the sticker price ain't the real price! Entry to he Aston club comes pretty high!
3 performance.....we all want a but more, however straight from the factory the base cars are not gut wrenchingly fast,
My answers....
If you look at Porsche, 2 models gave them the volume to succeed, the Boxter and the SUV, Cayenne. Now I am not proposing huge product diversification now. But the Boxter concept is worthy of investigation.
Here's my opinion. An entry level V6 3.0 Litre Aston priced around £50 to £55K......with a relatively basic spec.... I know this is a lot more than a Boxter, but the Aston brand can probably carry it.
How to fund it.....how about using some of he investment to do a JV with Lotus?
The new V6 3.0 litre could be bolted together to make a "new" V12....
The new baby ...baby Aston would give a huge increase in sales and volume would do wonders for its future.
It worked for Porsche ......Jaguar just doing it.....it would great to secure the future and out AM on the map...discuss
Glendower said:
My answers....
If you look at Porsche, 2 models gave them the volume to succeed, the Boxter and the SUV, Cayenne. Now I am not proposing huge product diversification now. But the Boxter concept is worthy of investigation.
Here's my opinion. An entry level V6 3.0 Litre Aston priced around £50 to £55K......with a relatively basic spec.... I know this is a lot more than a Boxter, but the Aston brand can probably carry it.
How to fund it.....how about using some of he investment to do a JV with Lotus?
The new V6 3.0 litre could be bolted together to make a "new" V12....
The new baby ...baby Aston would give a huge increase in sales and volume would do wonders for its future.
It worked for Porsche ......Jaguar just doing it.....it would great to secure the future and out AM on the map...discuss
I have never understood why people buy a Porsche Cayenne, surely you buy a Porsche because its a Porsche and you want a nice sports car. Why buy a Cayenne?? just buy a Land Rover Discovery or Range Rover and be done with it.
I understand things have to change, but sorry, these are nice ideas, but I am glad they are just ideas. I purchased my Aston, because it is an Aston and I wanted to be able to drive one of the most beautiful cars in the world and be part of its history. I certainly didn't want to buy into a watered down venture with Lotus for instance, (no offence to any Lotus owners), or heaven forbid, someone comes up with an idea to do a 4X4 Aston!!!
If you want a Lotus or a Porsche go buy one, I am sure that the reason people buy those cars is the same reason I purchased my Aston.
I think the way forward is finding the investment from other companies who want to buy into the history of this great car, it worked before and will no doubt work again
By the way, I have nothing against Porsche or Lotus owners, they are both very nice cars, but not my cup of tea.
And that is precisely the point. Aston Martin were never in the business of competing with Jaguar on price, and the 4.7 litre Vantage, which is fantastic value at £85k, is about as cheap as they would want to go. Likewise you have to accept, I think, that it is going to cost a bit to run. It is a bespoke high performance sports/tourer for your sophisticated English gentleman. It is a bit traditional and it looks stunningly beautiful, without parallel actually. There is nothing but nothing to touch it, and that is something enthusiasts can lose sight of. Including the dicks who wrote the latest Top Gear DB9 review. They have simply lost touch with reality. For all Ian Callum's work, Jaguar hasn't half the sensuality of an Aston, nor does anyone else. Ferraris just look brash, BMW's and Mercs look leaden by comparison.
For anyone who takes an interest in Aston Martin, the difference between the models is crystal clear. For the general public everything from a V8V to a Rapide and even a One-77, is basically an Aston. It's actually quite clever if you think about it.
Porsche were always a medium cost sports car. The 911 has gone upmarket, too upmarket by a long way in my view, to compete with the big GT's. They have just lost me completely on the 991, and all of their other cynical, badge engineered products, but I doubt if that will worry them. The Boxster and Cayman are what will compete with the new F-type, even though they have totally lost the simple elegance of the Harm Lagaay 986 design.
I wish I knew the answer, but it not becoming another Lotus. Maybe:-
1. Get quality and reliability right, 100% of the time. Unlike the 60's, it is essential these days.
2. Have a large industry partner to share cutting edge technology
3. Use the badge, as Porsche do. Produce a 'designer' SUV and whatever else people are prepared to pay big money for. The trouble with the Cygnet is not the principle, it is that big rollers don't like driving around in noddycars, and they are right.
However, please let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
For anyone who takes an interest in Aston Martin, the difference between the models is crystal clear. For the general public everything from a V8V to a Rapide and even a One-77, is basically an Aston. It's actually quite clever if you think about it.
Porsche were always a medium cost sports car. The 911 has gone upmarket, too upmarket by a long way in my view, to compete with the big GT's. They have just lost me completely on the 991, and all of their other cynical, badge engineered products, but I doubt if that will worry them. The Boxster and Cayman are what will compete with the new F-type, even though they have totally lost the simple elegance of the Harm Lagaay 986 design.
I wish I knew the answer, but it not becoming another Lotus. Maybe:-
1. Get quality and reliability right, 100% of the time. Unlike the 60's, it is essential these days.
2. Have a large industry partner to share cutting edge technology
3. Use the badge, as Porsche do. Produce a 'designer' SUV and whatever else people are prepared to pay big money for. The trouble with the Cygnet is not the principle, it is that big rollers don't like driving around in noddycars, and they are right.
However, please let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Neil1300R said:
What actually worked for Porsche and makes them the most money is the Cayenne, not low end low margin product.
Well yes and the fact they platform shared with VW.....Porsche couldn't have developed the Cayenne on it's own.Aston can't survive on it's own with current volumes....just not going to happen.
It's a real shame in my mind that BMW didn't/haven't got their hands on Aston. They have the engine and chassis tech and can't sell cars at anything close to £100k. Match made in heaven.
It's very simple - the pricing is at least as much if not more a problem than the cars, as has been well documented, particularly real world pricing vs list prices
The problem they have in sorting this is surplus capacity. All ways round, an SUV built or partially built at Gaydon solves these problems - it really is the most obvious answer. THey can then build fewer sports cars, purely to meet demand, which in turn would lead to a rise in volumes for those cars anyway
There is no way Aston can compete with a 50-60k V6 as it would either have massively less power than the F type and others, or power too close to the V8 to make the V8 viable. Furthermore, it would devalue the brand far more than Cygnet which is such an oddity, it doesnt really have an impact on the Aston sports cars
Low volume super expensive cars and an SUV are a far better way forward for their model
The problem they have in sorting this is surplus capacity. All ways round, an SUV built or partially built at Gaydon solves these problems - it really is the most obvious answer. THey can then build fewer sports cars, purely to meet demand, which in turn would lead to a rise in volumes for those cars anyway
There is no way Aston can compete with a 50-60k V6 as it would either have massively less power than the F type and others, or power too close to the V8 to make the V8 viable. Furthermore, it would devalue the brand far more than Cygnet which is such an oddity, it doesnt really have an impact on the Aston sports cars
Low volume super expensive cars and an SUV are a far better way forward for their model
I feel the OP has not grasped the appeal of Aston Martin. It's the very fact that its cars are not common, not Porsches and heaven forbid not Jaguars. Aston have the Lagonda mark in their portfolio so pressing ahead with a 4x4 SUV could work and not taint the Aston name, provided it looks nothing like the last effort. I also cannot fathom why they didn't make the Cygnet under another name; Tickford Town Car, Cygnet by Aston Martin, anything other than what they did (with the largest pair of Aston wings on the nose of any car they make.) A new design is required soon but while the current designs are so beautiful why alter things too much? It seems many people who are new to Aston worry about the company competing against mass produced cars, worry about power output, 0-100 times and bar room stats yet remember they chose an Aston, not a Ferrari or a Jaguar, if they ponder why - therein lies the answer to the way ahead.
Edited by RichB on Wednesday 30th January 09:56
George29 said:
what a ridiculous comparison. My Aston is an Aston and something I never thought I'd get my hands on, I absolutely love it.
Personally I think moving into the Boxster market, where you have other large competitors too, would be very risky, especially given the domination of the Boxster itself. I agree they need to rethink their strategy, for me that is looking towards the East, where the SUV is the way forward. Rather than competing with Boxter they would be better placed to spend their relatively small R and D budget on a top end SUV. Anathema to some on here but it's not about sports cars, it's about survival IMHO.
At the same time I think they need to move up market, not down. That means perhaps stopping Vantage or making it much more expensive and even more exclusive, and concentrating on top end cars to protect the brand, and controlling production to keep prices high with the knock on effect on depreciation.
If they keep Vantage, it needs to be a big jump rather than a face lift to not only attract new customers but retain current owners who at the moment can change their cAr without anybody noticing.
Whatever they do The interiors need to be refreshed in the Vanquish style rather than repeating something now 7 years plus old. New tech needs to be brought in, and a focus on supply chain quality to eliminate or seriously reduce the incidence of known issues ( usually finish and fit stuff but nevertheless damaging to reputation).
And a multi plate PDK style clutch is a must have, whilst retaining manual for those who want it. Time will tell.
At the same time I think they need to move up market, not down. That means perhaps stopping Vantage or making it much more expensive and even more exclusive, and concentrating on top end cars to protect the brand, and controlling production to keep prices high with the knock on effect on depreciation.
If they keep Vantage, it needs to be a big jump rather than a face lift to not only attract new customers but retain current owners who at the moment can change their cAr without anybody noticing.
Whatever they do The interiors need to be refreshed in the Vanquish style rather than repeating something now 7 years plus old. New tech needs to be brought in, and a focus on supply chain quality to eliminate or seriously reduce the incidence of known issues ( usually finish and fit stuff but nevertheless damaging to reputation).
And a multi plate PDK style clutch is a must have, whilst retaining manual for those who want it. Time will tell.
steveatesh said:
And a multi plate PDK style clutch is a must have, whilst retaining manual for those who want it. Time will tell.
The vast majority of Astons (with some very noteable exceptions, but not many) both in recent years and historically, have always been more of a Grand Tourer than out & out sports carFor that reason, much as I agree with you, it makes sense for aston to continue with the ZF auto box, bringing in the new 8 speed, as per recent comments by Chris Harris
On certain models only, basically the sportiest, i.e. vantage/it's replacement, it makes sense to continue to offer a manual as there is little to nil investment cost and it puts the firm in a very small niche, with Porsche and a few very low volume players, in offering the manual option. The great shame is that may well not happen but it certianly would be nice if it did
the problem for aston is much as I like the idea of a dual clutch/PDK type shift, I suspect it's only market would be in the vantage/most agile/sporty car, as the ZF arguably makes more sense in Vanquish & DB9 and certainly does in Rapide & an SUV/saloon. I'm not sure there would be sufficient volume to justify developing a dual clutch automated manual just for a vantage.
End result is inevitable - conventional auto in most models and if we are lucky, a manual option in some/all vantages. Whether the current sportshift transmission continues long term I doubt, but I think it's a great option and I certainly hope it survives. I drove a sportshift GT4 last week and on track, it makes an awful lot of sense
"collaboration with AMG" Is currently limited to having an investor who has some links with AMG, doesn't it?
They need a strong link with a major, quality manufacturer who will platform and major component share. Otherwise they will die very, very quickly.
There aren't even any sensible rumours that they have either yet.
Going down market will just hammer the coffin nails in quicker. Ignoring how far behind they are in terms of tech and performance will do the same.
They cannot rely on looks and ambience if the Vanquish is anything to go by - it has a chin like Abraham Lincoln and the interior looks like it was designed by Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles working together remotely. I can't recall the last time I saw so many oddly juxtaposed shapes and shut lines that didn't have a Ssangyong badge attached!
I chose my V8V in 2007 because the looks and ambience offset the inch or two it was behind competitors in other key areas. I cannot even contemplate replacing it with another AM at this point as the current range doesn't offer anything more than my current car, and there are competitor cars that are a country mile ahead.
If they cannot even make current owners get a decent tingle in their loins to upgrade, despite major finance incentives, what hope is there in getting the volume of new owners in they need?
The future looks very bleak IMO (very sadly) and has done for a while now, over which time what has moved forwards? Nothing...
They need a strong link with a major, quality manufacturer who will platform and major component share. Otherwise they will die very, very quickly.
There aren't even any sensible rumours that they have either yet.
Going down market will just hammer the coffin nails in quicker. Ignoring how far behind they are in terms of tech and performance will do the same.
They cannot rely on looks and ambience if the Vanquish is anything to go by - it has a chin like Abraham Lincoln and the interior looks like it was designed by Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles working together remotely. I can't recall the last time I saw so many oddly juxtaposed shapes and shut lines that didn't have a Ssangyong badge attached!
I chose my V8V in 2007 because the looks and ambience offset the inch or two it was behind competitors in other key areas. I cannot even contemplate replacing it with another AM at this point as the current range doesn't offer anything more than my current car, and there are competitor cars that are a country mile ahead.
If they cannot even make current owners get a decent tingle in their loins to upgrade, despite major finance incentives, what hope is there in getting the volume of new owners in they need?
The future looks very bleak IMO (very sadly) and has done for a while now, over which time what has moved forwards? Nothing...
This is a very interesting subject, that did receive considerable comment on this forum, at the time of the recent 'bid' speculation.
The discussion usually tends to centre around either the business model, or more often, which products or specification might be desirable.
The very long business history of Aston Martin has involved numerous occasions of financial 'troubles'. Presumably the underlying difficulty, is being unable to produce the enormous profits required, for continual development of successive models.
Aston Martin does however possess one very valuable asset, that few other companies have
- A TREMENDOUS PASSIONATE FOLLOWING. It is this which has enabled the company to survive every instance of financial 'trouble'. Wonderful deep pocketed individuals or companies, have helped on each occasion.
For this to occur over such a long period of time, might be almost unique in the business world.
However, LONG MAY IT CONTINUE.
RichB said:
jonby said:
...Low volume super expensive cars and an SUV are a far better way forward for their model
Hopefully, somehow they will get access to the Merc ML platform, which they already used to demonstarte that awfully-received Lagonda SUV concept. Stick the V12 into it, spend a fortune doing the interior and market it as the most expensive long-wheelbased SUV money can buy for the Eastern markets (not Norwich).
Sadly I think it has to be an 'Aston Martin', Lagonda is a name that ony officianados remember. Maybe 'Lagonda by Aston Martin' would work
The Boxster market has one huge problem; the Boxster is in it and Aston will fail spectacularly in any head to head with it. It can't even get through on exclusivity or quality as it will need to be cheap! The Box was always more cheaply made than the 911, people wanted it for the driving dynamics though, like the 912, 914, 924 and 944 (or because they were poseurs who couldn't afford a 911...).
That's not why you buy an Aston, you buy it for the feeling of wellbeing and perceived quality feel. That can't be achieved on a cut-price sports car.
Murph7355 said:
"collaboration with AMG" Is currently limited to having an investor who has some links with AMG, doesn't it?
They need a strong link with a major, quality manufacturer who will platform and major component share. Otherwise they will die very, very quickly.
There aren't even any sensible rumours that they have either yet.
the rumour is that amg will be used for engines and more going forwardThey need a strong link with a major, quality manufacturer who will platform and major component share. Otherwise they will die very, very quickly.
There aren't even any sensible rumours that they have either yet.
they would need to wait a good few months post-deal under normal circumstances to announce anything concrete in this respect but there is even more reason for a dealy at present, namely the centenary
I am more & more convinced there will be a lot of announcements this year, varying from smaller things like the centenary editions, to much bigger announcements
The timing of Rapide S was very signifcant IMO. It was after the first birthday celebration (when they announced centenary vanquish) but before geneva. They will want announcement/s at geneva, the birthday weekend in july, perhaps villa d'este or pebble beach and more. By not saving rapide S for one of those events, it says to me they have more significant things to announce at them. One assumes vanquish volante will not be til later in the year. Will be interesting
jonby said:
... much as I like the idea of a dual clutch/PDK type shift,
... I drove a sportshift GT4 last week and on track, it makes an awful lot of sense
As businesslike as always, Jonby.... I drove a sportshift GT4 last week and on track, it makes an awful lot of sense
My knowledge of different types of gearbox / dual plate clutches is hazy.
I am OK with the torque converter auto, and manual, but when I first encountered the Sportshift, I thought it was what we saw on F1 television, ie touch the button and instant response. I then heard critical comments that the Spotshift decides whether it wants to instantly obey the driver's command. Result, sometimes jerkiness.
We then see on televised BTCC and rallies, sequential gearchanging with instant response. Are they used in road cars?
There is a British gearbox maker that is popular in motorsports called Quaife. Is their product design suitable for road car manufacturers?
Single clutch, dual clutch, PDK! I would be most grateful for a laymans explanation of the gearboxes and clutch subject.
Jon39 said:
Single clutch, dual clutch, PDK! I would be most grateful for a laymans explanation of the gearboxes and clutch subject.
There are far better people than me to explain and as ever, there's a fair bit down to personal preferenceAuto is a torque convertor. Flappies tend to temporarily over ride it but in practice aren't used much on those types of boxes. Touchtronic in the 4 seater astons is 6 speed zf torque convertor auto
Sportsshift is the manual box, but with an automated (single) clutch. Was known as F1 in the 430 Ferrari. Also used in aventador and latest Paganis. Automatic mode tends to be awful. Gearchanges can be quite jolting. Plus side is light weight and feel of real involvement, but that can also be called jerkiness ! Much improved, but not perfect
Dual clutch automated manual is a more sophisticated (and heavier) version of the single clutch automated manual, tends to be smoother gear shift and better 'auto' option. Also known as PDK. Used in all the ferraris, the new R8 (old one was single clutch), all porsches, some (but not many) Mercs, Mclaren and in more mainstream cars e.g. audis
I'm now waiting to be corrected, shot down or made to look a fool of !!!!
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