928: Buy or build?
Discussion
Dear all,
I am a newbie to this site, please be gentle.
I have spent a few months looking at my options regarding a 928 (my dream childhood car).
I am currently in a real dilema regarding whether to spend £20k on a mint car or £5k on a project. The old adage with restoring cars seems to be that you are always better to buy a mint car rather than build one as the restorer never recovers the money they put in. Put simply, 5+30=20 when it comes to cars...
However, I have been doing some sums and it appears that by spending £5k on a basic late 80's or early 90's auto S4, £5k on a full respray, £2k on a full leather interior, 1k on carpets and other interior trim, I can have a visually immaculate car that is as good or better than when it left the factory and with a fresh lease of life for the next 25 years. I also have the advantage of being able to choose exactly the colour combinations that I want and having the assurance that any future rust spots by the windows or elsewhere are properly cured. That still leaves circa £7k for mechanical work. Perhaps that won't cover a new engine but would certainly replace a lot of other bits.
Personally I am very driven by how a car looks and I am a bit of a pedant. I know some people like patina on the leather and paintwork but to me it just looks scruffy rather than showing character. When someone says "genuine original xyz" I always think that we should replace it with a brand new xyz. I know a lot of people would disagree with me but it's just how I am.
I will want the car as a reliable weekend car capable of being driven 5000 miles a year. I won't track it or push it to the ragged edge but I don't want it as a concour car that is taken everywhere on a lorry. Basically, I want to be able to treat my 928 in broadly the same way as I would treat a newer Porsche- servicing it regularly and caring for it but expecting it to start and run well.
I would be very grateful for your views. Am I being realistic buying a £5k car, giving £7k each to a specialist mechanic and interior company and expecting to have a properly sorted car back in return?
Thanks in advance.
I am a newbie to this site, please be gentle.
I have spent a few months looking at my options regarding a 928 (my dream childhood car).
I am currently in a real dilema regarding whether to spend £20k on a mint car or £5k on a project. The old adage with restoring cars seems to be that you are always better to buy a mint car rather than build one as the restorer never recovers the money they put in. Put simply, 5+30=20 when it comes to cars...
However, I have been doing some sums and it appears that by spending £5k on a basic late 80's or early 90's auto S4, £5k on a full respray, £2k on a full leather interior, 1k on carpets and other interior trim, I can have a visually immaculate car that is as good or better than when it left the factory and with a fresh lease of life for the next 25 years. I also have the advantage of being able to choose exactly the colour combinations that I want and having the assurance that any future rust spots by the windows or elsewhere are properly cured. That still leaves circa £7k for mechanical work. Perhaps that won't cover a new engine but would certainly replace a lot of other bits.
Personally I am very driven by how a car looks and I am a bit of a pedant. I know some people like patina on the leather and paintwork but to me it just looks scruffy rather than showing character. When someone says "genuine original xyz" I always think that we should replace it with a brand new xyz. I know a lot of people would disagree with me but it's just how I am.
I will want the car as a reliable weekend car capable of being driven 5000 miles a year. I won't track it or push it to the ragged edge but I don't want it as a concour car that is taken everywhere on a lorry. Basically, I want to be able to treat my 928 in broadly the same way as I would treat a newer Porsche- servicing it regularly and caring for it but expecting it to start and run well.
I would be very grateful for your views. Am I being realistic buying a £5k car, giving £7k each to a specialist mechanic and interior company and expecting to have a properly sorted car back in return?
Thanks in advance.
Hi Mate, for what its worth I would be looking on the 928 section of the Porsche club GB website, get in touch with the register secretary who should be able to point you in the right direction, you want an ex concours car or one that a member has loved since new, a tough ask by any standards but that would be my starting point.
Regards the 928, if I were looking I think I would go 928 GT for the rarity value and extra punch, and or the latest model I could find.
As I am sure you know they are well renouwned ? for electrical issues.
Slightly off topic I bought my mrs a 968 last year and have to say the build quality is so far ahead of the equivalant priced boxster and the motor wont go bang either.
A 968 sport or clubsport may suit you .....
Regards the 928, if I were looking I think I would go 928 GT for the rarity value and extra punch, and or the latest model I could find.
As I am sure you know they are well renouwned ? for electrical issues.
Slightly off topic I bought my mrs a 968 last year and have to say the build quality is so far ahead of the equivalant priced boxster and the motor wont go bang either.
A 968 sport or clubsport may suit you .....
I think you're kidding yourself on the costs of bringing an avearge 928 up to decent spec. I note you haven't mentioned engine or clutch. Just a Belt & water pump change could add at least £1K on to your numbers & a clutch change the same again. A lot are auto so you'll swap the clutch for a box drain, refill & check.
The 928 is a complex car with very complex 1980s style electrics, problems on them can be very time consuming. Fine if you spanner it yourself, a nightmare if you need to pay someone.
The 928 is a complex car with very complex 1980s style electrics, problems on them can be very time consuming. Fine if you spanner it yourself, a nightmare if you need to pay someone.
Hi Stoxman,
Delighted to hear of someone coveting one of these wonderful cars. I've owned 2 over past 7 years, and am active in 928 owner circles.
928 owners are a very interesting bunch of people. I haven't worked out why in my head, but they are simply not "into" concours, so I don't think you'll find your dream (sorted) car by that route. Oddly enough the only "owned from new" 928 I know of is a beautiful 928 GT. Has about 25K miles on it now and still looks like it just rolled out of showroom. It's not for sale...
928s don't get out much en masse. Keep an eye on 928uk site for news of any gatherings. there are only 2 regular ones each year (Oct and Dec) so a bit far away for you. But there are plans for a get together at Gatwick aviation museum in May I think. Why not pop along to that, chat to lots of owners about your plan, and you'll probably find some cars for sale too. At the very least look at 928.org.uk - some cracking 928s come up for sale on that site.
Delighted to hear of someone coveting one of these wonderful cars. I've owned 2 over past 7 years, and am active in 928 owner circles.
928 owners are a very interesting bunch of people. I haven't worked out why in my head, but they are simply not "into" concours, so I don't think you'll find your dream (sorted) car by that route. Oddly enough the only "owned from new" 928 I know of is a beautiful 928 GT. Has about 25K miles on it now and still looks like it just rolled out of showroom. It's not for sale...
928s don't get out much en masse. Keep an eye on 928uk site for news of any gatherings. there are only 2 regular ones each year (Oct and Dec) so a bit far away for you. But there are plans for a get together at Gatwick aviation museum in May I think. Why not pop along to that, chat to lots of owners about your plan, and you'll probably find some cars for sale too. At the very least look at 928.org.uk - some cracking 928s come up for sale on that site.
tr7v8 said:
I think you're kidding yourself on the costs of bringing an avearge 928 up to decent spec. I note you haven't mentioned engine or clutch. Just a Belt & water pump change could add at least £1K on to your numbers & a clutch change the same again. A lot are auto so you'll swap the clutch for a box drain, refill & check.
The 928 is a complex car with very complex 1980s style electrics, problems on them can be very time consuming. Fine if you spanner it yourself, a nightmare if you need to pay someone.
Thanks. I did mention the engine and I would caveat that if I found a car that needed major engine work I would simply move on. I am sure you are spot-on with regards to the other work but with a budget of £7K, is it still reasonable to replace most of the obvious consumables? You suggested £1K for the belt and water pump, the same for the auto box drain. Throw in the same for new discs and pads all round, the same again for any joints that need replacing. We are at £4K. Have someone with a meter check all the grounds etc but we still aren't at £5K and I have £2K left over. What else am I missing?The 928 is a complex car with very complex 1980s style electrics, problems on them can be very time consuming. Fine if you spanner it yourself, a nightmare if you need to pay someone.
Best in advance.
Alan
Alan,
It's doable. I've been doing the same myself actually. I daren't add up all the bills but I'm currently in for something like £5k engine, £5k paint, £1k exhaust, £10k sundries/mechanicals non engine related.
Mine is a 79 manual "hot rod" with things like track rubber and crank scraper / windage system for track driving rather than a concours auto.
You should still start with the best car you can find. Be ready to pay up to £10k for the car. As the poster above says, really nice 928s are rare - they exist but they are rare. Most owned by enthusiasts are scruffy on the outside but well maintained underneath (sorry guys but it's true!). Non-enthusiast owned are generally sheds. You know, like most 10+yr old porsches.
Whatever you do, there are certain garages to be avoided when it comes to doing the work. Eg Paul Anderson. You can PM me for my honest view on which specliasts are good.
Good luck!
Joel
It's doable. I've been doing the same myself actually. I daren't add up all the bills but I'm currently in for something like £5k engine, £5k paint, £1k exhaust, £10k sundries/mechanicals non engine related.
Mine is a 79 manual "hot rod" with things like track rubber and crank scraper / windage system for track driving rather than a concours auto.
You should still start with the best car you can find. Be ready to pay up to £10k for the car. As the poster above says, really nice 928s are rare - they exist but they are rare. Most owned by enthusiasts are scruffy on the outside but well maintained underneath (sorry guys but it's true!). Non-enthusiast owned are generally sheds. You know, like most 10+yr old porsches.
Whatever you do, there are certain garages to be avoided when it comes to doing the work. Eg Paul Anderson. You can PM me for my honest view on which specliasts are good.
Good luck!
Joel
stoxman said:
tr7v8 said:
I think you're kidding yourself on the costs of bringing an avearge 928 up to decent spec. I note you haven't mentioned engine or clutch. Just a Belt & water pump change could add at least £1K on to your numbers & a clutch change the same again. A lot are auto so you'll swap the clutch for a box drain, refill & check.
The 928 is a complex car with very complex 1980s style electrics, problems on them can be very time consuming. Fine if you spanner it yourself, a nightmare if you need to pay someone.
Thanks. I did mention the engine and I would caveat that if I found a car that needed major engine work I would simply move on. I am sure you are spot-on with regards to the other work but with a budget of £7K, is it still reasonable to replace most of the obvious consumables? You suggested £1K for the belt and water pump, the same for the auto box drain. Throw in the same for new discs and pads all round, the same again for any joints that need replacing. We are at £4K. Have someone with a meter check all the grounds etc but we still aren't at £5K and I have £2K left over. What else am I missing?The 928 is a complex car with very complex 1980s style electrics, problems on them can be very time consuming. Fine if you spanner it yourself, a nightmare if you need to pay someone.
Best in advance.
Alan
One of my TIPEC members runs one & his "to do list" is pretty impressive & never gets shorter. nd he is a very competent spanner bod indeed. We have quite a few 928 owners on www.tipec.net forums so would be worth asking there.
The good news is that auto transmission drain, refill and new filter is a trivial cost (you could do it yourself with kit for around £40 excluding oil cost).
The bad news is that unless it has been fastidiously maintained, the big expenses can include (and I'm just quoting parts rough prices, without knowing whether you will diy or use one of the tiny number of independents you could trust with a 928):
- new engine mounts £500-600 (though Volvo replacements available for about 1/10 of this). Fitting them is a long and unpleasant job...
- sorting out the heating/aircon - almost certain to have some failed vacuum actuators and/or temp sensors. Need a real expert who understands the system to test and replace. Getting at some actuators labour intensive as requires dash removal
- new shocks and springs. I just did rears myself and even keeping eye out for fantastic deals on the parts, cost was around £250 per side with original parts
- replacing everything under intake manifold including all hoses, throttle switch, idle valve, knock sensors, probably injectors. Did this all myself on last 928 and it still cost me around £1500 in parts
- the radiator for the autos has oil cooler welded to one side, and this seam is prone to let go eventually leaving you to find new rad £500 or have original refurbed.
- refurbed steering rack around same cost if it's leaking. On subject of PAS, the high pressure hose springs pinhole leak after a time. Replacement costs around £150 (but will be good for at least another 10-15 years).
The cars are bullet proof. The problem is age not any particular weakness of the design. For example replacing everything under intake will make them good for another 25 years. The youngest 928 is 18 years old so they all need doing soon if not done already...
I spend too much on mine and I love working on it! Heaven knows what it would cost for pro to do it, and there are lots of horror stories about mechanics who just don't know the cars so waste money on replacing parts which are fine, or take too long diagnosing problems. Yes it's a complex machine, but it's a very logical car so armed with workshop manuals - and invaluable help from other owners - almost any job is within scope of keen amateur with tools and time.Access problems aside, they are lovely cars to work on such is the fantastic build quality and quality of (most of) the original parts.
Also they are brilliant value. How much would you pay now for a decent contemporary (say 964/993). Maybe around £20K for an average one, yet you'd struggle to find a 928 for sale at that price, so rare are the really exceptional ones.
The bad news is that unless it has been fastidiously maintained, the big expenses can include (and I'm just quoting parts rough prices, without knowing whether you will diy or use one of the tiny number of independents you could trust with a 928):
- new engine mounts £500-600 (though Volvo replacements available for about 1/10 of this). Fitting them is a long and unpleasant job...
- sorting out the heating/aircon - almost certain to have some failed vacuum actuators and/or temp sensors. Need a real expert who understands the system to test and replace. Getting at some actuators labour intensive as requires dash removal
- new shocks and springs. I just did rears myself and even keeping eye out for fantastic deals on the parts, cost was around £250 per side with original parts
- replacing everything under intake manifold including all hoses, throttle switch, idle valve, knock sensors, probably injectors. Did this all myself on last 928 and it still cost me around £1500 in parts
- the radiator for the autos has oil cooler welded to one side, and this seam is prone to let go eventually leaving you to find new rad £500 or have original refurbed.
- refurbed steering rack around same cost if it's leaking. On subject of PAS, the high pressure hose springs pinhole leak after a time. Replacement costs around £150 (but will be good for at least another 10-15 years).
The cars are bullet proof. The problem is age not any particular weakness of the design. For example replacing everything under intake will make them good for another 25 years. The youngest 928 is 18 years old so they all need doing soon if not done already...
I spend too much on mine and I love working on it! Heaven knows what it would cost for pro to do it, and there are lots of horror stories about mechanics who just don't know the cars so waste money on replacing parts which are fine, or take too long diagnosing problems. Yes it's a complex machine, but it's a very logical car so armed with workshop manuals - and invaluable help from other owners - almost any job is within scope of keen amateur with tools and time.Access problems aside, they are lovely cars to work on such is the fantastic build quality and quality of (most of) the original parts.
Also they are brilliant value. How much would you pay now for a decent contemporary (say 964/993). Maybe around £20K for an average one, yet you'd struggle to find a 928 for sale at that price, so rare are the really exceptional ones.
Edited by stratfordshark on Wednesday 30th January 16:00
Thanks everyone, very useful counsel.
Briefly putting to one side the cost of getting it up to good solid standard (let's say a £15-20k car standard), what should I budget for general maintenance every year (excluding insurance and fuel)?
I know that it will be lumpy and there will be some years that pass painlessly and others where the wallet is never closed but what would your average over the next 5 years be?
Thanks in advance.
Alan
Briefly putting to one side the cost of getting it up to good solid standard (let's say a £15-20k car standard), what should I budget for general maintenance every year (excluding insurance and fuel)?
I know that it will be lumpy and there will be some years that pass painlessly and others where the wallet is never closed but what would your average over the next 5 years be?
Thanks in advance.
Alan
Always had a hankering for a 928. Transformations like that below just reinforce the desire.
Full story http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/928-forum/56...
Full story http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/928-forum/56...
There are no worthwhile aftermarket warranties for 20 - 30 year old complicated cars.
The only way to be covered for a while is to buy a car from someone like Ray Northway, Hartech, 911V etc, pay the price, and then they will stand behind the car for the period they agree to stand behind it. It won't be open-ended.
The only way to be covered for a while is to buy a car from someone like Ray Northway, Hartech, 911V etc, pay the price, and then they will stand behind the car for the period they agree to stand behind it. It won't be open-ended.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff