Track days 2013: something to think about.
Discussion
With February approaching and that rarest of sights, the sun, making an appearance, albeit still infrequently im sure im not alone in having a sense that the home straight of winter is finally nearing.
While everyones minds will again be turning to their cars and the seasons track day schedules i wanted to post about something to think about for the coming season that seldom seems to be present and yet which can let you really start to get more from your events: data logging.
While suspension and brake mods are almost omnipresent, i hardly see anyone running any sort of logging at track days despite the significant benefits having some logging could bring so thought i would throw some info out. Hopefully it captures the imagination of atleast a few of you.
While you cannot run a race car now without logging, outside of this world theres a distinct lack of appreciation of just how interesting and useful a logger can be. I assume this comes from many simply not being aware just how it is used and how as a track day user one could benefit.
Theres two distinct forms of information gathered, that about the engine and equipment and a second about the car and its driving.
While the first lot is great for monitoring and protecting equipment its of little use to a track day user and setting up equipment for this is a waste of time and money. Most street ECUs can provide no more info to log than that which you already have shown on your dash board.
The second lot of info however is a whole other deal. Being able to log the info about how your car was driven opens up a whole world of usefulness. Theres probably more time spent at a race weekend going over this data with a coach than anything else combined, including driving.
While as a track day user you aren't going to want to pour over info looking for fractions of time, the exact same data can be used to give you an insight into how you actually drove and areas on which to focus on for improvement next time round. The data gives an accurate and totally impartial view of how you placed the car, where and when you braked, when you got on power, speed etc etc. Working with this to improve yourself is really all that matters, not how you stack up next to other cars or drivers. Theres too many variables for anything else to really matter.
Most of the systems around use GPS which allows you to overlay all of this over a map of the track showing your lines lap after lap. The benefit of this is that you don't need a science degree to fathom it out, you just look at your laps and can quickly see where you did things well and where you didn't along with causes why.
Given that for all of us, going to a track day is about bettering yourself as a driver and exploring the limits of the car what better way to do this than to be able to assess it accurately afterwards from your computer while waiting for the next outing.
For those new to a track or track driving in general, having someone experienced lap your car can give you a quick and easy reference point for you to take going forwards and to compare against your own once the day is over. You can even look over data from another session prior to attending to get a feel for how a track or sequence of corners should be driven even if you have never been there yourself.
Beyond this, the more seriously inclined can begin to take coaching lessons from the one of many data coaches available using the data you collect. This probably offers the most cost effective method of learning and improvement available. Many will have references for your track and the experienced can work easily just from what you give them. Since theres no need to be together with the coach, just exchange data and feedback it enables you to work with people in any part of the world. Most race teams have data coaches with them at a race weekend ready to analyse after each session however since you neither need them with you nor have pressing time constraints, you can benefit from this expert input in a similar fashion for a much lower cost and in a way thats convenient for you.
Best of all, its only about £400 for a system that will give you GPS logging and a whole bunch of info with which to begin. Most units are self contained, looking like a simple sat nav and can be easily taken out of the car when not in use or for hooking up to your computer. Since alot of track days dont want you timing, you can just set it up in the back out of the way, leave it to do its thing then download all the data once you are home.
For those of you already running a video camera of some description using the captured video and analysing the data from the same laps can be hugely instructive.
Heres a screen grab showing what you typically can see with a self contained system.
While this wont be for everyone, im sure many of you really try to go out and improve each time. As such, something that costs less than a tyre but that can give you an additional dimension to your track day experiences might be worth a think.
While everyones minds will again be turning to their cars and the seasons track day schedules i wanted to post about something to think about for the coming season that seldom seems to be present and yet which can let you really start to get more from your events: data logging.
While suspension and brake mods are almost omnipresent, i hardly see anyone running any sort of logging at track days despite the significant benefits having some logging could bring so thought i would throw some info out. Hopefully it captures the imagination of atleast a few of you.
While you cannot run a race car now without logging, outside of this world theres a distinct lack of appreciation of just how interesting and useful a logger can be. I assume this comes from many simply not being aware just how it is used and how as a track day user one could benefit.
Theres two distinct forms of information gathered, that about the engine and equipment and a second about the car and its driving.
While the first lot is great for monitoring and protecting equipment its of little use to a track day user and setting up equipment for this is a waste of time and money. Most street ECUs can provide no more info to log than that which you already have shown on your dash board.
The second lot of info however is a whole other deal. Being able to log the info about how your car was driven opens up a whole world of usefulness. Theres probably more time spent at a race weekend going over this data with a coach than anything else combined, including driving.
While as a track day user you aren't going to want to pour over info looking for fractions of time, the exact same data can be used to give you an insight into how you actually drove and areas on which to focus on for improvement next time round. The data gives an accurate and totally impartial view of how you placed the car, where and when you braked, when you got on power, speed etc etc. Working with this to improve yourself is really all that matters, not how you stack up next to other cars or drivers. Theres too many variables for anything else to really matter.
Most of the systems around use GPS which allows you to overlay all of this over a map of the track showing your lines lap after lap. The benefit of this is that you don't need a science degree to fathom it out, you just look at your laps and can quickly see where you did things well and where you didn't along with causes why.
Given that for all of us, going to a track day is about bettering yourself as a driver and exploring the limits of the car what better way to do this than to be able to assess it accurately afterwards from your computer while waiting for the next outing.
For those new to a track or track driving in general, having someone experienced lap your car can give you a quick and easy reference point for you to take going forwards and to compare against your own once the day is over. You can even look over data from another session prior to attending to get a feel for how a track or sequence of corners should be driven even if you have never been there yourself.
Beyond this, the more seriously inclined can begin to take coaching lessons from the one of many data coaches available using the data you collect. This probably offers the most cost effective method of learning and improvement available. Many will have references for your track and the experienced can work easily just from what you give them. Since theres no need to be together with the coach, just exchange data and feedback it enables you to work with people in any part of the world. Most race teams have data coaches with them at a race weekend ready to analyse after each session however since you neither need them with you nor have pressing time constraints, you can benefit from this expert input in a similar fashion for a much lower cost and in a way thats convenient for you.
Best of all, its only about £400 for a system that will give you GPS logging and a whole bunch of info with which to begin. Most units are self contained, looking like a simple sat nav and can be easily taken out of the car when not in use or for hooking up to your computer. Since alot of track days dont want you timing, you can just set it up in the back out of the way, leave it to do its thing then download all the data once you are home.
For those of you already running a video camera of some description using the captured video and analysing the data from the same laps can be hugely instructive.
Heres a screen grab showing what you typically can see with a self contained system.
While this wont be for everyone, im sure many of you really try to go out and improve each time. As such, something that costs less than a tyre but that can give you an additional dimension to your track day experiences might be worth a think.
Very good post & I totally agree with all your points.
There are also a couple of additional benefits to data logging & they relate to evaluating any changes to suspension settings & tyres. To really get the full picture when evaluating different tyre options, an accurate pressure gauge & probe pyrometer is essential kit. The other advantage of data logging I have found is using the OLED predictive lap time addon for the Video Vbox Lite can show you where you are losing (or gaining) time while you are on the lap & this allows you to refine your lines very quickly within a few laps. It's particularly useful when driving a new circuit as it lets you get dialled-in much faster.
The other thing I'd like to mention is that combining datalogging with video is very useful in a trackday environment because unlike in racing, there are rules & etiquette to be observed which can lose you time (eg. a slow car or novice driver slowing you down for half a lap until you can pass). If you have the video, you won't waste time trying to figure out from just data why that lap was particularly bad.
There are also a couple of additional benefits to data logging & they relate to evaluating any changes to suspension settings & tyres. To really get the full picture when evaluating different tyre options, an accurate pressure gauge & probe pyrometer is essential kit. The other advantage of data logging I have found is using the OLED predictive lap time addon for the Video Vbox Lite can show you where you are losing (or gaining) time while you are on the lap & this allows you to refine your lines very quickly within a few laps. It's particularly useful when driving a new circuit as it lets you get dialled-in much faster.
The other thing I'd like to mention is that combining datalogging with video is very useful in a trackday environment because unlike in racing, there are rules & etiquette to be observed which can lose you time (eg. a slow car or novice driver slowing you down for half a lap until you can pass). If you have the video, you won't waste time trying to figure out from just data why that lap was particularly bad.
most track day people go to 3 or 4 a year and for fun.
As live timing is NOT allowed on track days, looking at the data at home later seems a bit geeky :-) plus you forget what you did on track anyway.
imo we need to get the racers off track days and also ban slicks etc etc.
If you want to do all that goto test days.
As live timing is NOT allowed on track days, looking at the data at home later seems a bit geeky :-) plus you forget what you did on track anyway.
imo we need to get the racers off track days and also ban slicks etc etc.
If you want to do all that goto test days.
Do you ever read anything before wading in with a post?
I thought I covered where it gave opportunities for growth and development away from the benchmarking/chasing other drivers and cars. Seems like the perfect tool for a track day attendee.
I also specifically covered that you can't live time which is why analysing data afterwards can be so beneficial.
I didn't say it was for everyone or that all would "get it" but hopefully those that want a bit more out of their day or weekend will atleast have a look into an area that they may not have thought about.
Imagine a world where you could actually see exactly how what you did impacted the car around a lap, if you were way off the best line, if one corner compromises another, if going a bit slower made you smoother and quicker or if your new camber was actually better etc. most of what you learn applies to you as the driver and its knowledge that carries over to any track.
I thought I covered where it gave opportunities for growth and development away from the benchmarking/chasing other drivers and cars. Seems like the perfect tool for a track day attendee.
I also specifically covered that you can't live time which is why analysing data afterwards can be so beneficial.
I didn't say it was for everyone or that all would "get it" but hopefully those that want a bit more out of their day or weekend will atleast have a look into an area that they may not have thought about.
Imagine a world where you could actually see exactly how what you did impacted the car around a lap, if you were way off the best line, if one corner compromises another, if going a bit slower made you smoother and quicker or if your new camber was actually better etc. most of what you learn applies to you as the driver and its knowledge that carries over to any track.
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 30th January 16:06
I use a VBox Lite but made the mistake of not forking out the extra for the display when I bought it - and wish I had. Technically, though, we're not supposed to be using displays in the car - although I've not known anyone told off for using one.
Obviously as a racer I'm against having my car banned from track days as proper test days can be twice the price and are often sessioned too.
Obviously as a racer I'm against having my car banned from track days as proper test days can be twice the price and are often sessioned too.
majordad said:
What is the system for £400 appx? And as usual, a good post OP.
AIM smarty cam, using AIM Race studio for analysis (of limited number of channels offered by the smarty cam)?This is a good book on the subject: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Competition-Data-Logging-M...
this is not: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Competition-Car-Data-Loggi...
Edited by fergus on Wednesday 30th January 18:39
Given the seriousness people take in terms of track days I tink this is a great idea at really modest investment. To get best use out of the data on a track day however I'd suggest the car owner / driver could benefit from an Engineer / Coach to help decipher the outputs and implement PROGRESS. Afterall, as with all data, its what you do with it. If you have an owner who is inclined to want to learn about the relationship between tyres, bars, dampers and driver inputs etc its got to be a good thing. He / She will go faster, more easily, with less stress and safely. What could be more enjoyable and rewarding (apart from Racing of course)..? If anyone wants such on track help I'd happily oblige ;-)
Nice post.
Nice post.
fergus said:
AIM smarty cam, using AIM Race studio for analysis (of limited number of channels offered by the smarty cam)?
This is a good book on the subject: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Competition-Data-Logging-M...
this is not: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Competition-Car-Data-Loggi...
What in your opinion is the best system for value for money including a camera? Also are they complicated to use
This is a good book on the subject: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Competition-Data-Logging-M...
this is not: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Competition-Car-Data-Loggi...
What in your opinion is the best system for value for money including a camera? Also are they complicated to use
Edited by fergus on Wednesday 30th January 18:39
Great post.
I think this has the potential to save the vast majority of trackday goers thousands and thousands of pounds.
One datalogger and one session with a properly fast driver driving their car for them should be enough to convince a lot of people that it's not their sway bars, dampers, tyres or geo that are restricting their lap time, but actually their own ability in their car that is the limiting factor.
Most people have iPhones these days and even using that with something like Harry's Laptimer and an external GPS receiver to boost the sampling rate is better than nothing. It even lets you overlay data to video on your phone. Dead easy and if you have the phone already will cost you less than a tank of fuel all in.
Edit: Forgot to mention that VBox have just launched their Sport model as well if the standard kit is too rich for you.
http://www.videovbox.co.uk/index.php/en/component/...
I think this has the potential to save the vast majority of trackday goers thousands and thousands of pounds.
One datalogger and one session with a properly fast driver driving their car for them should be enough to convince a lot of people that it's not their sway bars, dampers, tyres or geo that are restricting their lap time, but actually their own ability in their car that is the limiting factor.
Most people have iPhones these days and even using that with something like Harry's Laptimer and an external GPS receiver to boost the sampling rate is better than nothing. It even lets you overlay data to video on your phone. Dead easy and if you have the phone already will cost you less than a tank of fuel all in.
Edit: Forgot to mention that VBox have just launched their Sport model as well if the standard kit is too rich for you.
http://www.videovbox.co.uk/index.php/en/component/...
mrdemon said:
most track day people go to 3 or 4 a year and for fun.
As live timing is NOT allowed on track days, looking at the data at home later seems a bit geeky :-) plus you forget what you did on track anyway.
imo we need to get the racers off track days and also ban slicks etc etc.
If you want to do all that goto test days.
Sorry, but I have some sympathy with this viewpoint too. I realise from other threads that the OP is a racer, so our aims will differ but I do trackdays just for fun and most times I go, either the track, the conditions or both vary, so I don't worry about last time or analysing. If I'm smiling over a pint on the way home, it was a good day.As live timing is NOT allowed on track days, looking at the data at home later seems a bit geeky :-) plus you forget what you did on track anyway.
imo we need to get the racers off track days and also ban slicks etc etc.
If you want to do all that goto test days.
The least enjoyable trackdays I've done have been open pitlane days, when I've been carved up by race cars clearly testing and quite possibly data logging, which makes them reluctant to ease off for a slower car for fear of 'spoiling' that lap.
jackwood said:
Great post.
I think this has the potential to save the vast majority of trackday goers thousands and thousands of pounds.
One datalogger and one session with a properly fast driver driving their car for them should be enough to convince a lot of people that it's not their sway bars, dampers, tyres or geo that are restricting their lap time, but actually their own ability in their car that is the limiting factor.
Most people have iPhones these days and even using that with something like Harry's Laptimer and an external GPS receiver to boost the sampling rate is better than nothing. It even lets you overlay data to video on your phone. Dead easy and if you have the phone already will cost you less than a tank of fuel all in.
Putting a top flight driver in a road car and demosntrating its true potential in front of the owner, and asking the owner to do the same is going to end in tears IMO. Relatively inexperienced drives (doing track days not racing) have a long way to go and the set up for them and a pro is a tad different I'm affraid...I think this has the potential to save the vast majority of trackday goers thousands and thousands of pounds.
One datalogger and one session with a properly fast driver driving their car for them should be enough to convince a lot of people that it's not their sway bars, dampers, tyres or geo that are restricting their lap time, but actually their own ability in their car that is the limiting factor.
Most people have iPhones these days and even using that with something like Harry's Laptimer and an external GPS receiver to boost the sampling rate is better than nothing. It even lets you overlay data to video on your phone. Dead easy and if you have the phone already will cost you less than a tank of fuel all in.
jfp said:
Putting a top flight driver in a road car and demosntrating its true potential in front of the owner, and asking the owner to do the same is going to end in tears IMO. Relatively inexperienced drives (doing track days not racing) have a long way to go and the set up for them and a pro is a tad different I'm affraid...
Who said anything about asking them to do the same? If a "good" driver gets in your car and immediately knocks 10 seconds off the time you achieved 2 minutes before in the same car with the same set up, why would you go home and think "tell you what, I'm going to spend 5 grand having new dampers fitted to my car today"? You'd have to be bonkers! Clearly just learning to drive the car you've already got properly should be the starting point. But without having a benchmark to work to how are you possibly going to know if you are approaching the limits of what your car is capable of with its current set-up?Interesting topic, I think logging really adds to the enjoyment and fun of a track day. I like to learn, the good and the bad, and the logger is a great device to show you what's going on with lines, v max through corners etc. I like looking at the sectors and seeing just how inconsistency sector to sector can be a big factor of a good lap. "Ideal lap" calculations can give you a pretty good self benchmark to work to if there's no "pro" on hand to set one for you! I have a perf box and leave it running in the glove box. Now, if only they would do an ipad app for circuit tools....the one thing I would like to see is throttle position and or gear, rpm etc
Loggers with video are great, have yet to see anything that can link Gopro video to perf box data that is either reasonably priced or consistent and easy to use. Vboxlite is good but its 1k...
Loggers with video are great, have yet to see anything that can link Gopro video to perf box data that is either reasonably priced or consistent and easy to use. Vboxlite is good but its 1k...
Because it,s promoting people chasing ideal lap times on public track days where no timing is allowed on site.
Better off hiring a current pro race driver to meet you at the event for some 1 to 1 training if you want to improve.
Timing and people racing at track days seems to be a more common event, one which I am very against.
Better off hiring a current pro race driver to meet you at the event for some 1 to 1 training if you want to improve.
Timing and people racing at track days seems to be a more common event, one which I am very against.
mrdemon said:
Because it,s promoting people chasing ideal lap times on public track days where no timing is allowed on site.
Better off hiring a current pro race driver to meet you at the event for some 1 to 1 training if you want to improve.
Timing and people racing at track days seems to be a more common event, one which I am very against.
As you keep mentioning lap timing, I don't think you fully understand what a (multi channel) data longer does or can offer you?Better off hiring a current pro race driver to meet you at the event for some 1 to 1 training if you want to improve.
Timing and people racing at track days seems to be a more common event, one which I am very against.
In reply to another post, depending upon what you are logging 20Hz may be overkill, or if using damper pots, then it wouldn't touch the sides in terms of what's needed for decent analysis.
As Neil(op) points out most Oem ecus sample a hell of a lof of channels including steering input, and through the multi channel abs on most cars, also have independent 4 wheel speed sensors and decent gyros/accelerometers. Most CAN bus type systems can tap into this, assuming you know the can us protocol being used...
Anyway, back to ill informed argument...
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