Confusion over difference between TC and ESC
Discussion
Are they completely different things or is one a kind of the other?
I thought Traction Control cuts out fuel or applies brakes in order to prevent wheelspin. So you could set off with your foot to the floor and the car would accelerate quickly and smoothly.
I thought Electronic Stability Control applies brakes to individual wheels in order to prevent understeer and oversteer. This technology I have read could have reduced all fatal accidents before it was invented by a 1/3. Impressive feature.
Just to confuse things, I've googled what switching off the ESC button does and why people would want to do it and a common explanation seems to be "turning ESC button off turns off the TC". So now I'm thinking, maybe ESC includes TC aswell as what I thought ESC was above? But it seems so unclear that I imagine different brands will have their own names for these electronic systems and what ESC means in one car could mean something different to what it means in another.
Now for why you would want to turn either TC or ESC off. From a sporty point of view, I imagine the less electronic interference, the more engaging the drive. I can't see what enjoyment there is in turning off TC, but I'm looking forward to hearing why readers may like to turn it off.
As for ESC though, I can see an obvious reason for wanting to turn it off. Continuous sustained oversteer (posh for drifting) is a lot of fun, from experience and I imagine you wouldn't be able to do it with it on.
I've never once got a kick out of lifting the throttle a little to correct wheelspin though, but perhaps others do, in which case please say. For that reason I would prefer the option to keep TC on but turn ESC off, when the conditions are appropriate of course. I'm currently looking for my next car to buy and the Suzuki Swift Sport mk2 appeals. I know it has an ESC button, but does anybody know what exactly it turns off?
I thought Traction Control cuts out fuel or applies brakes in order to prevent wheelspin. So you could set off with your foot to the floor and the car would accelerate quickly and smoothly.
I thought Electronic Stability Control applies brakes to individual wheels in order to prevent understeer and oversteer. This technology I have read could have reduced all fatal accidents before it was invented by a 1/3. Impressive feature.
Just to confuse things, I've googled what switching off the ESC button does and why people would want to do it and a common explanation seems to be "turning ESC button off turns off the TC". So now I'm thinking, maybe ESC includes TC aswell as what I thought ESC was above? But it seems so unclear that I imagine different brands will have their own names for these electronic systems and what ESC means in one car could mean something different to what it means in another.
Now for why you would want to turn either TC or ESC off. From a sporty point of view, I imagine the less electronic interference, the more engaging the drive. I can't see what enjoyment there is in turning off TC, but I'm looking forward to hearing why readers may like to turn it off.
As for ESC though, I can see an obvious reason for wanting to turn it off. Continuous sustained oversteer (posh for drifting) is a lot of fun, from experience and I imagine you wouldn't be able to do it with it on.
I've never once got a kick out of lifting the throttle a little to correct wheelspin though, but perhaps others do, in which case please say. For that reason I would prefer the option to keep TC on but turn ESC off, when the conditions are appropriate of course. I'm currently looking for my next car to buy and the Suzuki Swift Sport mk2 appeals. I know it has an ESC button, but does anybody know what exactly it turns off?
BadBanshee said:
Are they completely different things or is one a kind of the other?
TC is one part of ESC.BadBanshee said:
I thought Traction Control cuts out fuel or applies brakes in order to prevent wheelspin.
TC just cuts the power. Other parts of ESC can then apply the brakes to various wheels to correct slides etc.With TC left on it will try to stop power oversteer by cutting power, but it can't do anything about oversteer resulting from weight transfer (which ESC will try to do something about by braking individual wheels).
ESC is a layer on top of & utilising TC & ABS systems/hardware. Different manufacturers use different names for what is essentially the same thing (such as DSC, PSM etc).
ESC is a layer on top of & utilising TC & ABS systems/hardware. Different manufacturers use different names for what is essentially the same thing (such as DSC, PSM etc).
vonhosen said:
With TC left on it will try to stop power oversteer by cutting power, but it can't do anything about oversteer resulting from weight transfer (which ESC will try to do something about by braking individual wheels).
ESC is a layer on top of & utilising TC & ABS systems/hardware. Different manufacturers use different names for what is essentially the same thing (such as DSC, PSM etc).
So when it comes to playing with lift off oversteer in FWD cars, there would be, if you like, a market for an option to turn ESC off but keep TC on? Afterall TC isn't going to interfere in a FWD lift off oversteer drift, but it will interfere when you put your foot down on the exit, right? ESC is a layer on top of & utilising TC & ABS systems/hardware. Different manufacturers use different names for what is essentially the same thing (such as DSC, PSM etc).
And finally, so can I assume that the ESC button in the Swift Sport or any other car will turn off ESC AND TC? Or at least in cars which only have an ESC button rather than 2 buttons 1 for ESC and 1 for TC (if such cars even exist)?
BadBanshee said:
Now for why you would want to turn either TC or ESC off. From a sporty point of view, I imagine the less electronic interference, the more engaging the drive. I can't see what enjoyment there is in turning off TC, but I'm looking forward to hearing why readers may like to turn it off.
As for ESC though, I can see an obvious reason for wanting to turn it off. Continuous sustained oversteer (posh for drifting) is a lot of fun, from experience and I imagine you wouldn't be able to do it with it on.
I've never once got a kick out of lifting the throttle a little to correct wheelspin though, but perhaps others do, in which case please say. For that reason I would prefer the option to keep TC on but turn ESC off, when the conditions are appropriate of course. I'm currently looking for my next car to buy and the Suzuki Swift Sport mk2 appeals. I know it has an ESC button, but does anybody know what exactly it turns off?
You seem to have what each system is pretty straight, so I've cut that bit.As for ESC though, I can see an obvious reason for wanting to turn it off. Continuous sustained oversteer (posh for drifting) is a lot of fun, from experience and I imagine you wouldn't be able to do it with it on.
I've never once got a kick out of lifting the throttle a little to correct wheelspin though, but perhaps others do, in which case please say. For that reason I would prefer the option to keep TC on but turn ESC off, when the conditions are appropriate of course. I'm currently looking for my next car to buy and the Suzuki Swift Sport mk2 appeals. I know it has an ESC button, but does anybody know what exactly it turns off?
But you seem to be missing the fact that no traction control system will allow any significant wheel slip, which means "continuous sustained oversteer" is impossible with even a basic traction control left on! That's partly why we like to turn them off, and yes, in more powerful cars I do enjoy having full control of the level of wheelspin under hard acceleration, that's half the challenge of getting the car off the line smoothly.
But then I see you're talking about a front-wheel-drive car so the above points about traction control are mostly irrelevant, as driven wheelspin isn't going to cause intended oversteer or accidental instability. I can't see any possible situation where you'd want ESP turned off, so that you can attempt lift-off oversteer, but a traction system left on so that the car tries to interfere with you powering out of it.
Try something RWD and then come back to us
BadBanshee said:
vonhosen said:
With TC left on it will try to stop power oversteer by cutting power, but it can't do anything about oversteer resulting from weight transfer (which ESC will try to do something about by braking individual wheels).
ESC is a layer on top of & utilising TC & ABS systems/hardware. Different manufacturers use different names for what is essentially the same thing (such as DSC, PSM etc).
So when it comes to playing with lift off oversteer in FWD cars, there would be, if you like, a market for an option to turn ESC off but keep TC on? Afterall TC isn't going to interfere in a FWD lift off oversteer drift, but it will interfere when you put your foot down on the exit, right? ESC is a layer on top of & utilising TC & ABS systems/hardware. Different manufacturers use different names for what is essentially the same thing (such as DSC, PSM etc).
And finally, so can I assume that the ESC button in the Swift Sport or any other car will turn off ESC AND TC? Or at least in cars which only have an ESC button rather than 2 buttons 1 for ESC and 1 for TC (if such cars even exist)?
For instance, BMW have one button 'DSC' but it performs two functions. Press it for 1 second and it turns DTC on, that allows a bit more wheel slip to assist in snow etc. Hold it for 3 seconds & it turns DSC (& TC) off completely.
A lot of Audi's, when you switch ESP off it doesn't actually turn it off completely, it just alters the parameters in the software so that it steps in later.
Traction control does not necessarily have the ability to brake wheels, some systems were a lot more simple and could just detect wheel slip and cut back the engine power. systems which can detect and balance individual wheel slip are often considered to be basic stability package
ESP/ESC/DSC have a steering sensor and wheel speed sensors which is can use to calculate the trajectory of the vehicle and if it does not match the steering angle it will brake individual wheels to attempt to correct the course. Although engine control might not be strictly required for this it almost certainly will be part of the program for better control and so that the brakes are not unnecessarily fighting against the engine. This does not mean you cannot have the traction control on with the ESP off, it's just down to individual software.
Although the technology comes from motorsport these programs are generally built as safety systems, so they are not designed to enhance performance or make driving smoother, they are often deliberately quite intrusive so that they cannot be used as a performance aid. So for max performance you generally need to turn them off or a slight slip can result in a relatively large drop in engine output which lasts relatively long time. Some cars will have actual performance driver aids, the most common being launch control, but track modes or multiple programs are becoming more common on performance cars.
ESP/ESC/DSC have a steering sensor and wheel speed sensors which is can use to calculate the trajectory of the vehicle and if it does not match the steering angle it will brake individual wheels to attempt to correct the course. Although engine control might not be strictly required for this it almost certainly will be part of the program for better control and so that the brakes are not unnecessarily fighting against the engine. This does not mean you cannot have the traction control on with the ESP off, it's just down to individual software.
Although the technology comes from motorsport these programs are generally built as safety systems, so they are not designed to enhance performance or make driving smoother, they are often deliberately quite intrusive so that they cannot be used as a performance aid. So for max performance you generally need to turn them off or a slight slip can result in a relatively large drop in engine output which lasts relatively long time. Some cars will have actual performance driver aids, the most common being launch control, but track modes or multiple programs are becoming more common on performance cars.
Both are effectively a system to convert a traditional "do what I say" control interface to a "do what I mean". (To give an illustration, if you crank the steering wheel hard to the right on a wet road what you said was "understeer along the road in a straight line", while what you meant was "turn right")
ESC is a "do what I mean" interface for steering
TC is a "do what I mean" interface for the throttle
ABS is a "do what I mean" interface for the brakes
The confusion arises where accelerator and/or brake inputs can also affect steering. A car that would go in the direction you point the steering wheel for otherwise neutral inputs might not do the same if you jam the accelerator or the brake to the floor. So to implement ESC, you also need good TC and ABS systems.
ESC is a "do what I mean" interface for steering
TC is a "do what I mean" interface for the throttle
ABS is a "do what I mean" interface for the brakes
The confusion arises where accelerator and/or brake inputs can also affect steering. A car that would go in the direction you point the steering wheel for otherwise neutral inputs might not do the same if you jam the accelerator or the brake to the floor. So to implement ESC, you also need good TC and ABS systems.
IIRC the GT3 allows you to turn off the SC (stability control) and TC off independantly of each other.
Some cars (BMW that I know of) allows you to access a sub category of DSC called DTC, so from full stability control to traction control.
And of course there is the PH option of just OFF!
vonhosen said:
For instance, BMW have one button 'DSC' but it performs two functions. Press it for 1 second and it turns DTC on, that allows a bit more wheel slip to assist in snow etc.
So that is what it does! The manual blibbles on about what gets turned on/off without actually explaining what effect it has.
Timberwolf said:
Both are effectively a system to convert a traditional "do what I say" control interface to a "do what I mean". (To give an illustration, if you crank the steering wheel hard to the right on a wet road what you said was "understeer along the road in a straight line", while what you meant was "turn right")
ESC is a "do what I mean" interface for steering
TC is a "do what I mean" interface for the throttle
ABS is a "do what I mean" interface for the brakes
The confusion arises where accelerator and/or brake inputs can also affect steering. A car that would go in the direction you point the steering wheel for otherwise neutral inputs might not do the same if you jam the accelerator or the brake to the floor. So to implement ESC, you also need good TC and ABS systems.
That brought everything into perspective quite nicely.ESC is a "do what I mean" interface for steering
TC is a "do what I mean" interface for the throttle
ABS is a "do what I mean" interface for the brakes
The confusion arises where accelerator and/or brake inputs can also affect steering. A car that would go in the direction you point the steering wheel for otherwise neutral inputs might not do the same if you jam the accelerator or the brake to the floor. So to implement ESC, you also need good TC and ABS systems.
I'm still no closer to finding out if the Swift Sport ESC switch turns off TC aswell. It could even turn ABS off aswell. I doubt it, but still, after quite a long google search I'm none the wiser over what exactly that switch does. I would have thought it was a feature worthy of pondering.
Toltec said:
vonhosen said:
For instance, BMW have one button 'DSC' but it performs two functions. Press it for 1 second and it turns DTC on, that allows a bit more wheel slip to assist in snow etc.
So that is what it does! The manual blibbles on about what gets turned on/off without actually explaining what effect it has.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff