Discussion
sorry if this has already been done.
having recently finished a book, "the unknown soldier" which is a great read btw.
if the germans had started development of this 5 or 10 years earlier, would the world now be a very different place? i read and understand (what very little i know about planes) that they were often bombed whilst on the ground, or during takeoff, and reliability was an issue, but, blimey it seems handy that it came along abit to late during w.w.2, fortunately.
having recently finished a book, "the unknown soldier" which is a great read btw.
if the germans had started development of this 5 or 10 years earlier, would the world now be a very different place? i read and understand (what very little i know about planes) that they were often bombed whilst on the ground, or during takeoff, and reliability was an issue, but, blimey it seems handy that it came along abit to late during w.w.2, fortunately.
One of the great "What If's" of World War 2.
I think that NONE of these technical advances would have made a jot of difference to the outcome of World War 2. Germany was always going to lose - especially after their Russian campaign stalled. All they might have done is prolonged the conflict by a few months or possibly a few years. And, if that had have happened, far more people would have died and the terrifying prospect of either side using nuclear weapons in Europe could have become a reality.
Although the common tale in Britain is that British government inaction delayed the introduction of jet technology here, much the same was going on in Germany - coupled with the petty and corrosive rivalries between the different German government departments and ministers and aircraft manufacturers vying with each other to curry favour with the Nazi hierarchy.
If Ernst Heinkel had been more in favour with the Nazi party, his jet fighhter (the Heinkel He 280) could have been in service in late 1942.
I think that NONE of these technical advances would have made a jot of difference to the outcome of World War 2. Germany was always going to lose - especially after their Russian campaign stalled. All they might have done is prolonged the conflict by a few months or possibly a few years. And, if that had have happened, far more people would have died and the terrifying prospect of either side using nuclear weapons in Europe could have become a reality.
Although the common tale in Britain is that British government inaction delayed the introduction of jet technology here, much the same was going on in Germany - coupled with the petty and corrosive rivalries between the different German government departments and ministers and aircraft manufacturers vying with each other to curry favour with the Nazi hierarchy.
If Ernst Heinkel had been more in favour with the Nazi party, his jet fighhter (the Heinkel He 280) could have been in service in late 1942.
It just wasn't a much of priority and they were trying it in varied rolls.
They could have made a big difference to the allied bombing campaign if they had put a lot of effort into it.
Probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war but it may have lengthened the European campaign somewhat.
They could have made a big difference to the allied bombing campaign if they had put a lot of effort into it.
Probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war but it may have lengthened the European campaign somewhat.
One of the biggest problems the Germans faced was the lack of raw materials. And they had no access to the high quality metals that were needed for jet engines. I think the Jumbo/BMW engine fitted to the 262 lasted less than 24 hours.
Also as the war progressed, the Germans lost access to high quality oil, and refineries. This was one of the reasons why the Luftwaffe became ineffective in the last phases of the war.
Also as the war progressed, the Germans lost access to high quality oil, and refineries. This was one of the reasons why the Luftwaffe became ineffective in the last phases of the war.
Edited by jonnyb on Saturday 2nd February 09:36
jonnyb said:
One of the biggest problems the Germans faced was the lack of raw materials. And they had no access to the high quality metals that were needed for jet engines. I think the Jumbo/BMW engine fitted to the 262 lasted less than 24 hours.
Also as the war progressed, the Germans lost access to high quality oil, and refineries. This was one of the reasons why the Luftwaffe became ineffective in the last phases of the war.
"Jumbo" Also as the war progressed, the Germans lost access to high quality oil, and refineries. This was one of the reasons why the Luftwaffe became ineffective in the last phases of the war.
Edited by jonnyb on Saturday 2nd February 09:36
.The 262 was powered by two axial flow Junkers Jumo jet engines. BMW also built axial flow jet engines and these were used on one version of the Arado 234.
Germany's problem was that they tried to pursue the more advanced axial flow concept - which was, in theory, a more efficient form of jet engine (and the main type in use today). But axial flow engins need higher quality metals which were not available to Germany in the closing stages of the war. Ironically, the Heinkel He280 used centrifugal flow engines (similar to Whittle's) and would have been simpler, more reliable and therefore more effective in that period.
Although even the centrifugal flow engines were taking too long to develop.
Britain's development of centrifugal flow engines was more effective.
When Hitler first saw the Me 262 his first reaction was to turn it into a bomber! The fact that it's bomb load was so small as to be almost useless didn't bother him at all. Hitler was, right up to the last obsessed with fighting an offensive war, proof of which are his many 'No Retreat' orders from Stalingrad onwards.
12-18 months were wasted trying to turn the Me262 into a bomber and delayed its introduction into service as a fighter. I doubt it would have made a real difference to the Allied bombing campaign any way as there simply were not enough of them.
As for 'the terrifying prospect of either side using nuclear weapons in Europe' the only ones who would have had this capability would have been the Allies, more specificaly the Americans. The destruction of the Norsk Hydro plant and Heisenburgs feigned ignorance of how to design/build an atomic bomb coupled with the Germans lack of industrial muscle or access to enough refinable Uranium ore meant that a German atom bomb was never going to happen.
When I talk of German industrial muscle, yes they were producing large quantities of arms right up to the end but it's only when you read about the Manhattan Project can you appreciate how VAST it was and how much of a drain it was on the US war effort.
12-18 months were wasted trying to turn the Me262 into a bomber and delayed its introduction into service as a fighter. I doubt it would have made a real difference to the Allied bombing campaign any way as there simply were not enough of them.
As for 'the terrifying prospect of either side using nuclear weapons in Europe' the only ones who would have had this capability would have been the Allies, more specificaly the Americans. The destruction of the Norsk Hydro plant and Heisenburgs feigned ignorance of how to design/build an atomic bomb coupled with the Germans lack of industrial muscle or access to enough refinable Uranium ore meant that a German atom bomb was never going to happen.
When I talk of German industrial muscle, yes they were producing large quantities of arms right up to the end but it's only when you read about the Manhattan Project can you appreciate how VAST it was and how much of a drain it was on the US war effort.
Once they attacked Russia it was always going to end in tears. With the Western Allies and one side and the Russians on the other it was always going to end on way, just a question of when. Perhaps if he had gone for Moscow not Stalingrad... but anyway.
We like to make fun of Hitler and all his mistakes - along with Jimmy Saville he is the dustbin for all the world's evils - but what Germany achieved was fantastically impressive. In short, it took all the other countries of the world fighting together to beat them.
We like to make fun of Hitler and all his mistakes - along with Jimmy Saville he is the dustbin for all the world's evils - but what Germany achieved was fantastically impressive. In short, it took all the other countries of the world fighting together to beat them.
Tango13 said:
When Hitler first saw the Me 262 his first reaction was to turn it into a bomber! The fact that it's bomb load was so small as to be almost useless didn't bother him at all. Hitler was, right up to the last obsessed with fighting an offensive war, proof of which are his many 'No Retreat' orders from Stalingrad onwards.
12-18 months were wasted trying to turn the Me262 into a bomber and delayed its introduction into service as a fighter. I doubt it would have made a real difference to the Allied bombing campaign any way as there simply were not enough of them.
As for 'the terrifying prospect of either side using nuclear weapons in Europe' the only ones who would have had this capability would have been the Allies, more specificaly the Americans. The destruction of the Norsk Hydro plant and Heisenburgs feigned ignorance of how to design/build an atomic bomb coupled with the Germans lack of industrial muscle or access to enough refinable Uranium ore meant that a German atom bomb was never going to happen.
When I talk of German industrial muscle, yes they were producing large quantities of arms right up to the end but it's only when you read about the Manhattan Project can you appreciate how VAST it was and how much of a drain it was on the US war effort.
Two things not widely known are that up to the middle of the war, the UK's atomic bomb development was far ahead of the USA's. Naturally, we passed all the info to the Americans (followed by the Miles supersonic aircraft, which the X1 looked suspiciously similar too). The other is that the B29 bomber programme took more resources and was more expensive than the development of the atomic bomb. The fact the USA could develop both at the same time, shows Germany never had a chance.12-18 months were wasted trying to turn the Me262 into a bomber and delayed its introduction into service as a fighter. I doubt it would have made a real difference to the Allied bombing campaign any way as there simply were not enough of them.
As for 'the terrifying prospect of either side using nuclear weapons in Europe' the only ones who would have had this capability would have been the Allies, more specificaly the Americans. The destruction of the Norsk Hydro plant and Heisenburgs feigned ignorance of how to design/build an atomic bomb coupled with the Germans lack of industrial muscle or access to enough refinable Uranium ore meant that a German atom bomb was never going to happen.
When I talk of German industrial muscle, yes they were producing large quantities of arms right up to the end but it's only when you read about the Manhattan Project can you appreciate how VAST it was and how much of a drain it was on the US war effort.
Tango13 said:
When Hitler first saw the Me 262 his first reaction was to turn it into a bomber! The fact that it's bomb load was so small as to be almost useless didn't bother him at all. Hitler was, right up to the last obsessed with fighting an offensive war, proof of which are his many 'No Retreat' orders from Stalingrad onwards.
12-18 months were wasted trying to turn the Me262 into a bomber and delayed its introduction into service as a fighter. I doubt it would have made a real difference to the Allied bombing campaign any way as there simply were not enough of them.
As for 'the terrifying prospect of either side using nuclear weapons in Europe' the only ones who would have had this capability would have been the Allies, more specificaly the Americans. The destruction of the Norsk Hydro plant and Heisenburgs feigned ignorance of how to design/build an atomic bomb coupled with the Germans lack of industrial muscle or access to enough refinable Uranium ore meant that a German atom bomb was never going to happen.
When I talk of German industrial muscle, yes they were producing large quantities of arms right up to the end but it's only when you read about the Manhattan Project can you appreciate how VAST it was and how much of a drain it was on the US war effort.
Although Hitler never INSISTED that the 262 be developed into a bomber. In fact, the 262 was a rather low priority project as far as he was concerned.12-18 months were wasted trying to turn the Me262 into a bomber and delayed its introduction into service as a fighter. I doubt it would have made a real difference to the Allied bombing campaign any way as there simply were not enough of them.
As for 'the terrifying prospect of either side using nuclear weapons in Europe' the only ones who would have had this capability would have been the Allies, more specificaly the Americans. The destruction of the Norsk Hydro plant and Heisenburgs feigned ignorance of how to design/build an atomic bomb coupled with the Germans lack of industrial muscle or access to enough refinable Uranium ore meant that a German atom bomb was never going to happen.
When I talk of German industrial muscle, yes they were producing large quantities of arms right up to the end but it's only when you read about the Manhattan Project can you appreciate how VAST it was and how much of a drain it was on the US war effort.
The decision to develop a bomber version originated from Willy Messerschmitt himself. He casually mentioned to Hitler that it might be worthwhile developing a bomber variant. In 1942, Germany was still on the offensive, so a bomber variant made sense. Hitler gave the project the go ahead.
Messerschmitt was a canny political manipulator, and he was trying to curry favour with Hitler over his arch jet fighter rival, Ernst Heinkel. Heinkel was less politically astute than Messerschmitt - and that is why the 262 went into production and the He280 did not.
As for using nuclear weapons in Europe, if the war had gone on long enough, then Germany MAY have been in a position to use them. However, even if they hadn't, I could foresee the Russians putting immense pressure on the Americans to use Allied nukes against Germany, especially if the war in the east had got itself mired for any reason.
Eric Mc said:
As for using nuclear weapons in Europe, if the war had gone on long enough, then Germany MAY have been in a position to use them. However, even if they hadn't, I could foresee the Russians putting immense pressure on the Americans to use Allied nukes against Germany, especially if the war in the east had got itself mired for any reason.
One wonders whether, if the war in Europe had been in full swing in August 1945 (eg as it had been the year before), an atom bomb might have been dropped on Berlin. I don't think so.Sorry, rambling OT.
williamp said:
Perhaps a more interesting what-if would be if a meteor met an Me262 in combat
'Blimey this is a bit quick I can't get my guns to bear...'Not sure the Me262 did much dog-fighting; they'd have preferred slashing attacks on the bombers until out of ammo, then legged it before the escort turned up, relying on speed to stay out of trouble.
Simpo Two said:
'Blimey this is a bit quick I can't get my guns to bear...'
Not sure the Me262 did much dog-fighting; they'd have preferred slashing attacks on the bombers until out of ammo, then legged it before the escort turned up, relying on speed to stay out of trouble.
Yep suited the role, dive to catch up the bombers pull up on 100% power and splatter the bombers with cannon and rockets.Not sure the Me262 did much dog-fighting; they'd have preferred slashing attacks on the bombers until out of ammo, then legged it before the escort turned up, relying on speed to stay out of trouble.
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