Problems With Cayman S (Distance Sell) Advice Please
Discussion
Hey guys,
I have been posting a few times over last few weeks about buying a Cayman S (please feel free to check previous posts) anyway I ended up buying the Cayman S 2011 from Porsche Bournemouth on Thursday as a part exchange with my BMW 320 convertible. They had it delivered in a covered transport in the morning to my house so this is therefore classified as a distance sell and those regulations apply such as seven days returns policy etc. I was debating about having it delivered but from posts on here and advice from friends thought I would be safe as it is a Porsche dealership and they have standards to uphold. Gosh was I wrong.
Anyway had it delivered and to say I was shocked was an understatement. I quickly checked over the car in the pouring ran so not ideal but found a small black mark on the front drivers alloy wheel and three marks on the passengers side rear allow wheel one of which was very deep and looked as though someone had hit a curb (all very obvious). Anyway obviously explained and showed the gentlemen that delivered and spoke to the seller on the phone and explained I was not happy at all. I then noticed marks on the paintwork at the bottom of the drivers doorsill which were very noticeable as well. So I took pictures of all the issues so that I had evidence.
I came to the car five minutes later after taking out the car manual etc unknowingly to me along with the vts (tracker cards not really sure how this all works). Anyway the engine wouldnt start. I couldnt believe it and rang the seller and he walked me through it saying he didnt understand what was going on. Then after about half an hour of this and waiting for the RAC (through Porsche assist) to come and diagnose the problem I thought maybe its these card things (I didnt think they were active as wasnt told). I went and got one put it in the car and hey presto engine started. Anyway rang the seller back and explained what had happened and he said he didnt realise they were active yet as I hadnt paid the subscription and he had never heard of this happening before.
So I am driving down the road and after 5 minutes of driving an engine fault flashes up. I rang the seller explained what had happened and he said maybe its a fault code that just needs to be wiped because I tried to start the car so many times without it starting.
Anyway got home rang Porshe assist (RAC) they came checked it out and said there are several fault codes one for an oxygen sensor fault (Bank 1) and a second for indicator switch jamming/sticking and another that I have now forgotten but wasnt as important. Anyway asked him how he reckons this has happened and he says the indicator one maybe from starting the engine so many times and the other is just a random fault. Asked him if they should have noticed this before selling and he says maybe but he cant be sure. He said I can drive temporarily like this but it needs to get checked out when I can by Porsche.
So I emailed the seller explaining how annoyed and upset I am for obvious reasons. How this is my first Porsche been looking forward to it for so long and not enjoying it etc and what are they going to do about it.
The seller rang me in the morning and said that they plan to have a transport collect the car on Tuesday and take it back to them to repair the faults and send me up a 911 as a courtesy car. Saying they know they have made a mistake and they are giving a 100k car as amend. They said that they would honour the returns policy until it comes back to me. I just cant believe that these things have happened especially when I paid a premium from an authorised dealer who also sent me emails saying that there was nothing wrong with any of the car.
So guys what do you think? Should I wait and see what happens or return the car straight away? Are these things to worry about? Has anyone else had these issues? Is Bournemouth known as unreliable?
Also does anyone know who to email or contact from Porsche to report the seller as have asked the seller numerous times for contact details but have not been given any as of yet?
Thank you guys and all comments much appreciated,
I have been posting a few times over last few weeks about buying a Cayman S (please feel free to check previous posts) anyway I ended up buying the Cayman S 2011 from Porsche Bournemouth on Thursday as a part exchange with my BMW 320 convertible. They had it delivered in a covered transport in the morning to my house so this is therefore classified as a distance sell and those regulations apply such as seven days returns policy etc. I was debating about having it delivered but from posts on here and advice from friends thought I would be safe as it is a Porsche dealership and they have standards to uphold. Gosh was I wrong.
Anyway had it delivered and to say I was shocked was an understatement. I quickly checked over the car in the pouring ran so not ideal but found a small black mark on the front drivers alloy wheel and three marks on the passengers side rear allow wheel one of which was very deep and looked as though someone had hit a curb (all very obvious). Anyway obviously explained and showed the gentlemen that delivered and spoke to the seller on the phone and explained I was not happy at all. I then noticed marks on the paintwork at the bottom of the drivers doorsill which were very noticeable as well. So I took pictures of all the issues so that I had evidence.
I came to the car five minutes later after taking out the car manual etc unknowingly to me along with the vts (tracker cards not really sure how this all works). Anyway the engine wouldnt start. I couldnt believe it and rang the seller and he walked me through it saying he didnt understand what was going on. Then after about half an hour of this and waiting for the RAC (through Porsche assist) to come and diagnose the problem I thought maybe its these card things (I didnt think they were active as wasnt told). I went and got one put it in the car and hey presto engine started. Anyway rang the seller back and explained what had happened and he said he didnt realise they were active yet as I hadnt paid the subscription and he had never heard of this happening before.
So I am driving down the road and after 5 minutes of driving an engine fault flashes up. I rang the seller explained what had happened and he said maybe its a fault code that just needs to be wiped because I tried to start the car so many times without it starting.
Anyway got home rang Porshe assist (RAC) they came checked it out and said there are several fault codes one for an oxygen sensor fault (Bank 1) and a second for indicator switch jamming/sticking and another that I have now forgotten but wasnt as important. Anyway asked him how he reckons this has happened and he says the indicator one maybe from starting the engine so many times and the other is just a random fault. Asked him if they should have noticed this before selling and he says maybe but he cant be sure. He said I can drive temporarily like this but it needs to get checked out when I can by Porsche.
So I emailed the seller explaining how annoyed and upset I am for obvious reasons. How this is my first Porsche been looking forward to it for so long and not enjoying it etc and what are they going to do about it.
The seller rang me in the morning and said that they plan to have a transport collect the car on Tuesday and take it back to them to repair the faults and send me up a 911 as a courtesy car. Saying they know they have made a mistake and they are giving a 100k car as amend. They said that they would honour the returns policy until it comes back to me. I just cant believe that these things have happened especially when I paid a premium from an authorised dealer who also sent me emails saying that there was nothing wrong with any of the car.
So guys what do you think? Should I wait and see what happens or return the car straight away? Are these things to worry about? Has anyone else had these issues? Is Bournemouth known as unreliable?
Also does anyone know who to email or contact from Porsche to report the seller as have asked the seller numerous times for contact details but have not been given any as of yet?
Thank you guys and all comments much appreciated,
They are a new OPC I think so i doubt there will be too much feedback. Id give them a chance to sort it out as it is better than the alternatives but i'd also send them a letter or fax saying you reserve your rights to reject the car under the distance selling regulations if it isnt remedied to your complete satisfaction. It is important to get this in writing during the seven days and before they pick it up otherwise they may try and claim you accepted the car subject to the works being remedied.
I'd be wary about relying on the legal side - Ie the distance selling regs. I don't think they apply, but I'm probably wrong. However you don't want to find that out when you want to rely on rejecting the car under them.
I'd certainly ask on SP&L about the right process to follow if you want to secure your rejection rights.
Sorry it's been such a horrible intro to Porsche ownership. You'll enjpoy the car I'm sure when you get it sorted.
Bert
I'd certainly ask on SP&L about the right process to follow if you want to secure your rejection rights.
Sorry it's been such a horrible intro to Porsche ownership. You'll enjpoy the car I'm sure when you get it sorted.
Bert
I know Bournemouth OPC very well and I'm surprised to hear you're having dramas with them.
They're not a new OPC , they've been around for years. It's a busy dealership, Sandbanks is just down the road so they have a large customer base.
They've serviced all my Porsches and I've never been anything but happy.
Sounds to me like they just dropped the ball on this one and are working hard and quickly to make amends.
Give them the opportunity to make things right.
They're not a new OPC , they've been around for years. It's a busy dealership, Sandbanks is just down the road so they have a large customer base.
They've serviced all my Porsches and I've never been anything but happy.
Sounds to me like they just dropped the ball on this one and are working hard and quickly to make amends.
Give them the opportunity to make things right.
BertBert said:
I'd be wary about relying on the legal side - Ie the distance selling regs. I don't think they apply, but I'm probably wrong. However you don't want to find that out when you want to rely on rejecting the car under them.
All this stuff is terribly wishy washy, but they probably don't apply to the odd remote transaction - there has to be an organised system of distance selling.To add to the advice given I'd suggest that between now and the car being collected you go over it with a fine-toothed comb, just so that you can list everything to them (from a cosmetic point of view) that you think need dealing with. I'd hope that besides sorting everything for you they also do something extra by way of apology - a trip to the Porsche Experience Centre at Silverstone for example.
Distance Selling Rules definitely apply, and will actually cover you for much more than 7 days.
Distance Selling Rules definitely apply, and will actually cover you for much more than 7 days.
thegoose said:
Distance Selling Rules definitely apply, and will actually cover you for much more than 7 days.
"2.3 The DSRs do not apply to business to business contracts and salesby distance means that do not form part of an organised distance selling scheme.4*
4* A scheme in which there are standard letters/procedures in place for dealing with distance contracts may be considered an organised scheme."
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_...
Deva Link said:
thegoose said:
Distance Selling Rules definitely apply, and will actually cover you for much more than 7 days.
"2.3 The DSRs do not apply to business to business contracts and salesby distance means that do not form part of an organised distance selling scheme.4*
4* A scheme in which there are standard letters/procedures in place for dealing with distance contracts may be considered an organised scheme."
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_...
Your car will have cost you a fair wedge of money and to see things like kerbed wheels, paint problems etc is the dealer not taking pride in the cars they sell these are cheap and easy repairs so why wasn't it done, I feel sorry for you as your new car moment has been ruined forever because some one couldn't be arsed doing their job properly.
Have them fix all the problems and suggest they do something to keep you sweet...they will want to keep you as a returning customer if you know what I mean.
Have them fix all the problems and suggest they do something to keep you sweet...they will want to keep you as a returning customer if you know what I mean.
thegoose said:
To add to the advice given I'd suggest that between now and the car being collected you go over it with a fine-toothed comb...
Get them to ring you when it's ready, drive there in their 911, then go over it in detail while it's in the workshop/car park! ONLY once you're happy, drive away and enjoy the journey back!thegoose said:
Surely that's only relevant if the OP bought in the name of his business? If he bought as a private individual then he's covered, no?
No - there are two separate things that DSR doesn't cover in that sentence.The OP might be covered, and it sounds like the OPC has a returns policy anyway, but BertBert's advice is very valid - the OP needs to be careful about relying on DSR only to find when push comes to shove that the sale isn't covered.
Deva Link said:
No - there are two separate things that DSR doesn't cover in that sentence.
The OP might be covered, and it sounds like the OPC has a returns policy anyway, but BertBert's advice is very valid - the OP needs to be careful about relying on DSR only to find when push comes to shove that the sale isn't covered.
OK, I see what you mean - I guess I read it as:The OP might be covered, and it sounds like the OPC has a returns policy anyway, but BertBert's advice is very valid - the OP needs to be careful about relying on DSR only to find when push comes to shove that the sale isn't covered.
".3 The DSRs do not apply to business to business {contracts and sales}
by distance means that do not form part of an organised distance selling scheme.4*"
Whereas you read it as:
"2.3 The DSRs do not apply to a)business to business contracts and b)sales
by distance means that do not form part of an organised distance selling scheme.4*"
As a dealer, I get regular legal updates from Lawgistics, a motor-trade focused law firm, and it was from one of these that I read a warning about being caught out by the DSRs as a dealer, the example being of a dealer who got stiffed by a customer returning a car months after purchase due to the DSRs applying - although I don't have the details to hand I'm afraid. What was made clear is that to avoid potentially falling victim of the DSRs, any deposit left prior to viewing should be considered a "viewing deposit" only such in the event of a sale it's only written up and invoiced as of when they turned up & viewed.
Taken from The Office of Fair Trading: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_...
3 DISTANCE SELLING OF CARS TO CONSUMERS
Do the DSRs apply?
3.1 The DSRs apply to distance contracts for goods and services (other than excepted contracts), concluded between a supplier and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme (see below).
3.2 A distance contract is defined as one where the supplier 'for the purpose of the contract, makes exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the moment at which the contract is concluded'. This means that there is no face to face contact between the supplier and the consumer at any point during the contract-forming process, which ends when the consumer is committed to making a purchase.
3.3 The DSRs therefore apply if you sell cars to consumers without any face to face contact with the consumer for the purpose of concluding the contract, eg:
• over the internet
• teractive digital television
• by mail order, or
• by fax.
3 DISTANCE SELLING OF CARS TO CONSUMERS
Do the DSRs apply?
3.1 The DSRs apply to distance contracts for goods and services (other than excepted contracts), concluded between a supplier and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service provision scheme (see below).
3.2 A distance contract is defined as one where the supplier 'for the purpose of the contract, makes exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the moment at which the contract is concluded'. This means that there is no face to face contact between the supplier and the consumer at any point during the contract-forming process, which ends when the consumer is committed to making a purchase.
3.3 The DSRs therefore apply if you sell cars to consumers without any face to face contact with the consumer for the purpose of concluding the contract, eg:
• over the internet
• teractive digital television
• by mail order, or
• by fax.
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