(NHS) Redundancy - Any experts?
Discussion
I've put the NHS in brackets, as it may not be applicable just to the NHS. It may help if you have NHS knowledge though, I guess...
So here's the situation...
I have worked for one PCT for 3 years. I then went onto secondment to my current role, working across both PCTs. I believe I am employed by the new PCT, but am still paid by my old PCT, even though I work across both.
Since going on secondment, my substantive post has gone. Now, as we begin the transfer to CCGs, it gets more complicated.
My secondment contract is until the end of July 2013. Trouble is, I'm on secondment from a PCT which will be gone, to a PCT which will be gone. They want me to transfer to a CCG for the 4-month period.
My question is... Can they do this? I have a number of questions, which I don't believe HR themselves are even clear on. My main concern is that I don't want to put myself in a worse position unnecessarily.
In my eyes, they should be making me redundant from the end of March, when the PCT closes, and then putting me on a fixed-term contract to cover the final 4 months. They will obviously not want to do this, but what I don't want to do is end up in a bad position.
The worst position would be that I continue on secondment, transfer to the CCG, and they force me into a role which I don't want, having to pay my mileage.
I should note, the reason I'm still an 'employee' of the old PCT is that I work across both, and didn't want to have to pay to travel the 70 mile round trip at cost. So I technically work from the old PCT (as my base), but never go there. I do most of my work at the new PCT.
Sorry if that's just a lot of words, but I have my HR meeting coming up to discuss it, and would like to be prepared.
Can anyone help?
So here's the situation...
I have worked for one PCT for 3 years. I then went onto secondment to my current role, working across both PCTs. I believe I am employed by the new PCT, but am still paid by my old PCT, even though I work across both.
Since going on secondment, my substantive post has gone. Now, as we begin the transfer to CCGs, it gets more complicated.
My secondment contract is until the end of July 2013. Trouble is, I'm on secondment from a PCT which will be gone, to a PCT which will be gone. They want me to transfer to a CCG for the 4-month period.
My question is... Can they do this? I have a number of questions, which I don't believe HR themselves are even clear on. My main concern is that I don't want to put myself in a worse position unnecessarily.
In my eyes, they should be making me redundant from the end of March, when the PCT closes, and then putting me on a fixed-term contract to cover the final 4 months. They will obviously not want to do this, but what I don't want to do is end up in a bad position.
The worst position would be that I continue on secondment, transfer to the CCG, and they force me into a role which I don't want, having to pay my mileage.
I should note, the reason I'm still an 'employee' of the old PCT is that I work across both, and didn't want to have to pay to travel the 70 mile round trip at cost. So I technically work from the old PCT (as my base), but never go there. I do most of my work at the new PCT.
Sorry if that's just a lot of words, but I have my HR meeting coming up to discuss it, and would like to be prepared.
Can anyone help?
bga said:
I can't comment on your situation but it is common to carry over tenure of employment when moving between different legal entities within an organisation to protect benefits accrued through length of continual employment.
Agreed. But I would be at a distinct disadvantage doing so, since in 4 months I could be forced into a job I don't want, despite originally being employed 35 miles away. That's the concern really.You need to have a good read through the www.NHStransition.co.uk site - it's run by the agency the DH chose to help with the process, although not branded as either.
In a nutshell, if you get slated for transfer under the job matching process then you need to have a good reason to object - "significantly increased travel time/expenses from home to office" is listed as an example *but* if you're already doing the travelling, you might find that the time argument doesn't wash and (depending on your grade/role) the expense one might not.
You can appeal but if you lose and decide not to still not take the post, you're classed as having resigned (i.e. no redundancy).
The secondment aspect has potential to complicate things as you're still an employee of the first PCT BUT there's a chance they might not be clear about which job they should be matching against (your permanent one or the one you're seconded to).
I suspect that a good bit will, in reality, hinge on how much the CCG wants you.
The whole thing is very stressful though - feel quite sorry for everyone who has been messed around (and even DN has recently admitted it's not been good enough).
Hope it works out for you.
In a nutshell, if you get slated for transfer under the job matching process then you need to have a good reason to object - "significantly increased travel time/expenses from home to office" is listed as an example *but* if you're already doing the travelling, you might find that the time argument doesn't wash and (depending on your grade/role) the expense one might not.
You can appeal but if you lose and decide not to still not take the post, you're classed as having resigned (i.e. no redundancy).
The secondment aspect has potential to complicate things as you're still an employee of the first PCT BUT there's a chance they might not be clear about which job they should be matching against (your permanent one or the one you're seconded to).
I suspect that a good bit will, in reality, hinge on how much the CCG wants you.
The whole thing is very stressful though - feel quite sorry for everyone who has been messed around (and even DN has recently admitted it's not been good enough).
Hope it works out for you.
Cheers.
I'm clear on the transfer thing, and rejecting a job in the new structure leaving me without redundancy money. This is more complicated though, as I'm on secondment.
In my eyes, the easiest thing to do would be to make me redundant from my 'old job' which doesn't exist at the end of March, then give me a fixed-term contract in the CCG.
Just to clear it up a bit more, I'm on a project currently, and they need me until the end of July, hence the temporary transfer. I am very clearly in the structure, as a temporary post (the only temporary post on there).
I need to be very careful, as I may either lose my redundancy money, or end up in a job which means I end up losing money.
I am hopeful that I'll find a job elsewhere in the meantime, but I have to cover all angles.
I'm clear on the transfer thing, and rejecting a job in the new structure leaving me without redundancy money. This is more complicated though, as I'm on secondment.
In my eyes, the easiest thing to do would be to make me redundant from my 'old job' which doesn't exist at the end of March, then give me a fixed-term contract in the CCG.
Just to clear it up a bit more, I'm on a project currently, and they need me until the end of July, hence the temporary transfer. I am very clearly in the structure, as a temporary post (the only temporary post on there).
I need to be very careful, as I may either lose my redundancy money, or end up in a job which means I end up losing money.
I am hopeful that I'll find a job elsewhere in the meantime, but I have to cover all angles.
It might be easier, and there is a logic to the idea, but I'd be astonished if you swung redundancy + immediate fixed term contract. Way too political, especially given the state of flux of CCGs and some temp roles getting made permanent (either there or in CSUs). Also can't see anyone wanting to run the risk of trying to reverse and recover funds from a redundancy that turned out not to have been.
I reckon it's much more likely that they'd seek to transfer (perhaps with some pay protection to cover commuting costs) then make redundant when the role is no longer needed.
I reckon it's much more likely that they'd seek to transfer (perhaps with some pay protection to cover commuting costs) then make redundant when the role is no longer needed.
That's what I imagine will happen, unfortunately. If I could swing redundancy, that would be good, but it's not my key focus. My key focus is making sure I am able to pay the bills after July.
Can I legally be transferred, on a secondment/temporary basis, when the organisation I'm seconded from will have disappeared? If not, they have to offer me a temporary contract, don't they?
Can I legally be transferred, on a secondment/temporary basis, when the organisation I'm seconded from will have disappeared? If not, they have to offer me a temporary contract, don't they?
Pulse said:
Can I legally be transferred, on a secondment/temporary basis, when the organisation I'm seconded from will have disappeared? If not, they have to offer me a temporary contract, don't they?
I'm not a HR lawyer, but would expect that they'd transfer you from your current employer to the CCG - the whole secondment thing is a bit of a red herring really as all it means in practical terms is that the organisation you're seconded to is reimbursing your employer for your services. Difficult to see how you could be transferred from the organisation you were seconded to to the CCG as your contract of employment won't be with the former.Of course, since the accrued rights of an employee transfer with them, it could well be that the CCG would prefer someone to make you redundant beforehand (so that they don't end up carrying the cost of this). But, as mentioned earlier, there is tremendous sensitivity to people being made redundant and then immediately securing a new NHS contract.
In which case, that raises a few more questions, if correct...
1. Since I'd be transferred from my old PCT, would they not have to provide me with a role which is appropriate for me; on the same band?
2. Since I'd be transferred from my old PCT, I assume they would have to provide me with a contract which stipulates I work from home, and am paid travel, or something similar? Or would they have to include this in my pay, by upping me through the spine points?
3. Again, can they actually do this? I surely have to opt for the job, rather than them putting me into it, since the job is far away. Otherwise they could put me with any CCG or otherwise anywhere in the country.
I really wish this was more simple, but I am one of the complicated few... Most others are clearer cut than this.
I personally think the CCG would love the idea of making me redundant, since they don't have to pay for it once they've had just 4 months out of me - essentially costing them double, with my service. As you've said though, people are not keen on that in the current environment.
That isn't to say it hasn't happened a LOT already, though... I know of a few people who've had £100k+ payouts, only to land another NHS job the following month.
1. Since I'd be transferred from my old PCT, would they not have to provide me with a role which is appropriate for me; on the same band?
2. Since I'd be transferred from my old PCT, I assume they would have to provide me with a contract which stipulates I work from home, and am paid travel, or something similar? Or would they have to include this in my pay, by upping me through the spine points?
3. Again, can they actually do this? I surely have to opt for the job, rather than them putting me into it, since the job is far away. Otherwise they could put me with any CCG or otherwise anywhere in the country.
I really wish this was more simple, but I am one of the complicated few... Most others are clearer cut than this.
I personally think the CCG would love the idea of making me redundant, since they don't have to pay for it once they've had just 4 months out of me - essentially costing them double, with my service. As you've said though, people are not keen on that in the current environment.
That isn't to say it hasn't happened a LOT already, though... I know of a few people who've had £100k+ payouts, only to land another NHS job the following month.
Pulse said:
In which case, that raises a few more questions, if correct...
1. Since I'd be transferred from my old PCT, would they not have to provide me with a role which is appropriate for me; on the same band?
2. Since I'd be transferred from my old PCT, I assume they would have to provide me with a contract which stipulates I work from home, and am paid travel, or something similar? Or would they have to include this in my pay, by upping me through the spine points?
3. Again, can they actually do this? I surely have to opt for the job, rather than them putting me into it, since the job is far away. {4}Otherwise they could put me with any CCG or otherwise anywhere in the country.
1: Not necessarily - you need to take time to read through the various stages of job matching etc - but, in a nutshell, they do not "have" to provide you with a role.1. Since I'd be transferred from my old PCT, would they not have to provide me with a role which is appropriate for me; on the same band?
2. Since I'd be transferred from my old PCT, I assume they would have to provide me with a contract which stipulates I work from home, and am paid travel, or something similar? Or would they have to include this in my pay, by upping me through the spine points?
3. Again, can they actually do this? I surely have to opt for the job, rather than them putting me into it, since the job is far away. {4}Otherwise they could put me with any CCG or otherwise anywhere in the country.
2: No - why would they make you home based? More usual to make a mileage payment *IF* that's what their policy is for staff asked to change roles (sometimes depends on which Ts&Cs you're on).
3: You can be "slotted in" as part of the matching process. If you decline then you've resigned.
{4}: No, if you're in the SW then NE would clearly be seen as unreasonable but a local move (within a sensible distance/time) might not be.
Agree it's complicated, but you really do need to have a good read through the guidance docs as I suspect that you can steer things towards where you want to be (i.e. persuading them which of your roles, original or seconded, you think is relevant could be key).
The 'local' move would be a 70 mile round trip every day, adding up to 2 hours to my day. I'm not sure that could be considered 'reasonable', but there are no hard and fast rules to it, which is frustrating.
Just to be clear, this isn't job matching. I went through that process, as I am a low band, and got matched to nothing in CCG, CSU or NCB. When I took the secondment however, I signed up to a contract of 'until July 2013'. This isn't them slotting me in, but identifying a requirement for a set period, which is very different, in my eyes. I don't believe I would be declining any 'slotting', but I'll have to clarify this tomorrow with them.
On the 'home based' requirement, that is because I'm currently basically based like that. I think we're saying the same thing though - they'd pay me the difference in mileage (e.g. 70 miles per day).
I've really had no time to read through the documents as, ironically, my job keeps me extremely busy. I haven't paid attention to any of the process in the last year due to the fact I've been so busy, including not applying for any further NHS jobs until recently.
Thanks for your help so far. Let's hope I get a good response tomorrow, but I very much doubt it. A junior HR person who isn't clear, and my manager who doesn't want me to leave. I have no-one coming with me, though I was told I could do so.
Just to be clear, this isn't job matching. I went through that process, as I am a low band, and got matched to nothing in CCG, CSU or NCB. When I took the secondment however, I signed up to a contract of 'until July 2013'. This isn't them slotting me in, but identifying a requirement for a set period, which is very different, in my eyes. I don't believe I would be declining any 'slotting', but I'll have to clarify this tomorrow with them.
On the 'home based' requirement, that is because I'm currently basically based like that. I think we're saying the same thing though - they'd pay me the difference in mileage (e.g. 70 miles per day).
I've really had no time to read through the documents as, ironically, my job keeps me extremely busy. I haven't paid attention to any of the process in the last year due to the fact I've been so busy, including not applying for any further NHS jobs until recently.
Thanks for your help so far. Let's hope I get a good response tomorrow, but I very much doubt it. A junior HR person who isn't clear, and my manager who doesn't want me to leave. I have no-one coming with me, though I was told I could do so.
In the main this sounds like a pretty standard redundancy procedure. All the NHS references and acronyms don't really add much. From your own point of view you need to consider the role you are in, ignore the secondment for the time being, the terms and conditions, salary, location. Compare that to the other roles available. Whether the redeployment role is deemed a suitable alternative depends on a number of factors, some of which are already mentioned. The question of location, exta travel time etc is determined subjectively on a case by case basis.
The thing is, it's not a slotting/redeployment/other. It's continuing the EXACT role I am currently performing in my secondment. It's also not an offer of permanent employment - it's a temporary role.
That said, my old role was a Project Manager. My current role is... Project Manager.
That said, my old role was a Project Manager. My current role is... Project Manager.
Pulse said:
The thing is, it's not a slotting/redeployment/other. It's continuing the EXACT role I am currently performing in my secondment.
You seem to be missing the point though: the secondment is a temporary redeployment from your permanent role. The normal expectation would be that, post secondment, you'd be back to your normal role - in practice this doesn't always happen but they need to work on the assumption that it's what would happen. Otherwise, what happens when your secondment finishes?
I've had my meeting now, and feeling quite a bit better for it. Thank god I had the meeting, as HR have changed their tune.
So, I'm going to be a permanent member of staff in the new CCG, 35 miles away; albeit only for 4 months. About two months prior to the end of my time, they'll try to find me a job internally or make me redundant.
This means I get paid the difference in mileage each day (it's about 2 miles to my current workplace). The only outstanding part is that currently I travel the up to 2 hours per day within my working day, whereas from April I'll have to take that out of my own time.
Is it worth raising this as an issue/appeal? I'm thinking I'll just suck it up and live with it for now.
So, I'm going to be a permanent member of staff in the new CCG, 35 miles away; albeit only for 4 months. About two months prior to the end of my time, they'll try to find me a job internally or make me redundant.
This means I get paid the difference in mileage each day (it's about 2 miles to my current workplace). The only outstanding part is that currently I travel the up to 2 hours per day within my working day, whereas from April I'll have to take that out of my own time.
Is it worth raising this as an issue/appeal? I'm thinking I'll just suck it up and live with it for now.
Sounds like a reasonable outcome.
Lots of people commute an hour + each way, so personally I'd just run with it (dare I say it: less likely to be found something decent at the end of it if you start raising concerns) for a few months. If ever asked, perhaps couch it in terms of you being OK with it as seeing the project through is important to you?
The alternative is you raise an appeal and they turn round and say "yes, you've got a point" and make you redundant straight away. In which case you're into job hunting mode straight away instead of being able to do it more at your leisure.
Lots of people commute an hour + each way, so personally I'd just run with it (dare I say it: less likely to be found something decent at the end of it if you start raising concerns) for a few months. If ever asked, perhaps couch it in terms of you being OK with it as seeing the project through is important to you?
The alternative is you raise an appeal and they turn round and say "yes, you've got a point" and make you redundant straight away. In which case you're into job hunting mode straight away instead of being able to do it more at your leisure.
That was my view, too. Run with it, but make it clear that I am doing the travel because I like the place I work and the project is important to me.
As you say, it'll increase my chances of getting a job with them in the future, too... Hopefully.
Now that's all done, I can finally move on. I'm technically permanent, so I can start to look for a new house, etc properly!
As you say, it'll increase my chances of getting a job with them in the future, too... Hopefully.
Now that's all done, I can finally move on. I'm technically permanent, so I can start to look for a new house, etc properly!
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