RE: Mayhem May be Safer
Monday 24th June 2002
Mayhem May be Safer
Suspend the rules and drivers will be more careful say Dutch boffins
Discussion
heard this on Radio 4 this morning ... needless to say the Radio 4 presenter dragged the discussion towards the holy grail of speed reduction ... speed limits in the areas where this stuff has been tried out is 30kph or 19mph.
There may be some benefit for doing this on roads in residential areas. But it shouldn't be seen as a panacea. E.g. in the USA they often have 4-way stop signs, i.e. no one has right of way at a junction. Everyone stops then takes it in turn. This requires eye contact, negotiation etc., and thus achieves the Dutch objective by actually imposing stricter rules.
The idea that it could be applied to more major roads is obviously mad. If you want to see what happens, try going to Zimbabwe or Argentina and having a drive.
I can imagine that Dutch drivers, being socially conscious and ever so nice, may try to adhere to the rules for a bit even after the white lines have been scrubbed off the roads and the signs uprooted. But once they get bored of the extra effort, they'll collectively say sod it, and treat it like a free for all.
There may be some benefit for doing this on roads in residential areas. But it shouldn't be seen as a panacea. E.g. in the USA they often have 4-way stop signs, i.e. no one has right of way at a junction. Everyone stops then takes it in turn. This requires eye contact, negotiation etc., and thus achieves the Dutch objective by actually imposing stricter rules.
The idea that it could be applied to more major roads is obviously mad. If you want to see what happens, try going to Zimbabwe or Argentina and having a drive.
I can imagine that Dutch drivers, being socially conscious and ever so nice, may try to adhere to the rules for a bit even after the white lines have been scrubbed off the roads and the signs uprooted. But once they get bored of the extra effort, they'll collectively say sod it, and treat it like a free for all.
It all depends on the particular junction. Where I live, recently there has been lots of money spent redesigning crossroads T-Junctions etc. This has led to increased waiting times because of new sets of lights and the way they work. Its great when the lights break though because people slow down for the junction and proceed with caution and everything runs much more smoothly.
However, that is not to say I want to see all traffic lights removed. Some are vital, particulary when its busy. Indeed a new set are being put in at a T-junction where it is impossible to pull out when its busy.
Sometimes traffic controls are needed, sometimes they aren't. What is needed it a little thought and consideration by the people who decide where they go.
However, that is not to say I want to see all traffic lights removed. Some are vital, particulary when its busy. Indeed a new set are being put in at a T-junction where it is impossible to pull out when its busy.
Sometimes traffic controls are needed, sometimes they aren't. What is needed it a little thought and consideration by the people who decide where they go.
I heard this on R4 and I have to say that upto a point, the guy's right, but I can't see the numpty public going for it.. or the numpty politicians..
Expecing motorists to use their intelligence to negotiate juntions will be disastrous after the years of coddling and being able to disengage all power of independent thought.
Expecing motorists to use their intelligence to negotiate juntions will be disastrous after the years of coddling and being able to disengage all power of independent thought.
In Banbury a few years back there was heavy flooding that knocked traffic lights out at a major junction. During the week or so that the lights were out traffic flowed more freely than ever before.
Take away the traffic lights etc and people are generally more hazard concious, the fella does have a point.
Matt.
Take away the traffic lights etc and people are generally more hazard concious, the fella does have a point.
Matt.
Well well well - it just goes to show that people can think for themselves after all..... Make it appear more "dangerous" and people will act in self-preservation mode, taking greater care. Tell them that "safety" has been designed in/covered by cameras, and they stop thinking, stop caring (namby pamby la di da) and have more frigging accidents! 
Picture this , yesterday a major cross roads with the lights down , they had defaulted to flashing amber all four ways , on the slightly more main road of the junction the morons where just coming at normal speed and hooting if you had started to edge out into the junction , i started with some caution ,but alas the old red mist came up and it ended with a lot of 
going on .
I can see what they are saying and i would like to agree but in reality it just don`t work, people in general need to be told what to do
going on .
I can see what they are saying and i would like to agree but in reality it just don`t work, people in general need to be told what to do
quote:I think you need to remember that this was a circumstance in which the people expected normal service from the lights.
I can see what they are saying and i would like to agree but in reality it just don`t work, people in general need to be told what to do
This idea would require a culture change and that would take time.
That said, this idea has been proved a success in the Netherlands where it could be said the national temperament is rather different than ours.
It does work it just depends on the junction. Wide open ones with good visibility and dare I say it slow moving approach traffic often do not need traffic signals. But another junction with poor visibility and not much room for manouvre, or just one route taking priority do require traffic signals.
quote:I think you need to remember that this was a circumstance in which the people expected normal service from the lights.
Nah Carzz Flashing amber is not normal service in anyones book , it was in Sweden and not England but then they have some very curious driving habits over here anyway , so why was i supprised
There are cases where this would work. I'm thinking paticularly of residential roads where people pick up too much speed, "safe" in the knowledge that the Give Way lines are in their favour.
It's true that most councils are way too quick to put in traffic lights at every opportunity so I'd welcome some alternative thinking to the ever increasing barriers, humps, bumps, marking and signs which must become counter-productive once drivers' finite attention is taken up trying to interpret all of this junk rather than concentrating on hazard detection - which is where it should be.
It's true that most councils are way too quick to put in traffic lights at every opportunity so I'd welcome some alternative thinking to the ever increasing barriers, humps, bumps, marking and signs which must become counter-productive once drivers' finite attention is taken up trying to interpret all of this junk rather than concentrating on hazard detection - which is where it should be.
quote:
So I presume they'll take away the speed limits and cameras alomg with all the other designer roadside clutter too? Let's face it, thanks to the depradations of anti-car Councils, roads are more like crazy golf courses than roads.
Good point -- don't you get fed up of rural and urban streets being cluttered up with more reading meterial than you'll voluntarily look at in a week?
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