Bomber Harris interview
Discussion
May be of interest to some, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qnpht
Interview with Bomber Harris that hasn't been seen before, or at least so they claim.
On West Midlands BBC "Inside Out" program tomorrow and then iplayer on Tuesday.
Interview with Bomber Harris that hasn't been seen before, or at least so they claim.
On West Midlands BBC "Inside Out" program tomorrow and then iplayer on Tuesday.
Eric Mc said:
Anyone who knows the history of Bomber Command operations in World War 2 would already know that the decison to bomb cities did not originate with Harris.
Thank f**k for some one else who knows the truth! There is a discussion/can of worms right there that could cause a melt down of the inter-web but the fact is Harris was not the originator of the area bombing order.
Utmost respect for the crews. Accounts I have read had the populace as seeing it getting back at the enemy. Harris could not have carried on without direction and support. The fella with the moustache in Germany unlocked that particular method when he started rolling up parts of Europe.
Simpo Two said:
Regardless of who originated it, did any Britons particularly mind about it when the war was actually on?
I would imagine the answer is no. What the bleeding heart liberals forget is that WWII was a war of Ideology, Hitler was prepared to fight to the death and that is exactly what he got.
There are accounts of bomber crew dropping bricks from their families bombed out houses as acts of revenge on Germany so as I say, no I doubt many British civilians really cared about the fate of their German counterparts.
Simpo Two said:
Regardless of who originated it, did any Britons particularly mind about it when the war was actually on? I suspect most of the parents and grandparents of the people who get so steamed up about it would have been fully in favour.
I think many at the time (and even now) would say"They started it" and would not have seen it as wrong or injust.
Granted, the Luftwaffe were unable to inflict the same devastation that the Allies caused in places like Dresden (more due to the lack of resources than anything else) but nevertheless many cities did take a beating.
jmorgan said:
Utmost respect for the crews. Accounts I have read had the populace as seeing it getting back at the enemy. Harris could not have carried on without direction and support. The fella with the moustache in Germany unlocked that particular method when he started rolling up parts of Europe.
Hmm I don't think Hitler was unique with the idea, remember Baldwin's "The bomber will always get through" speech in the early 30s. The intention of smashing cities with bombs came about pretty much as soon as they had capable aircraft I think. Prewar government design specs requested big bomb load capacities. Even the B17/B24 couldn't hold a candle to a Lancaster.Edited by Crafty_ on Sunday 10th February 20:25
Crafty_ said:
jmorgan said:
Utmost respect for the crews. Accounts I have read had the populace as seeing it getting back at the enemy. Harris could not have carried on without direction and support. The fella with the moustache in Germany unlocked that particular method when he started rolling up parts of Europe.
Hmm I don't think Hitler was unique with the idea, remember Baldwin's "The bomber will always get through" speech in the early 30s. The intention of smashing cities with bombs came about pretty much as soon as they had capable aircraft I think. Prewar government design specs requested big bomb load capacities. Even the B17/B24 couldn't hold a candle to a Lancaster.Edited by Crafty_ on Sunday 10th February 20:25
Will also be interested in watching this interview. Whoever was 'originally' responsible for the area bombing tactics must have felt it was the only option left to end the war. Its also very easy to criticize all these years later, hinesight is a wonderful thing.
Im travelling with my dad to see the Bomber Command memorial this Saturday as its exactly 70 years when my uncle was killed in action. He was a pilot on Lancs with 100 squadron. He died February 15th 1943.
I'm looking forward to it.
Im travelling with my dad to see the Bomber Command memorial this Saturday as its exactly 70 years when my uncle was killed in action. He was a pilot on Lancs with 100 squadron. He died February 15th 1943.
I'm looking forward to it.
Edited by Waynester on Sunday 10th February 23:38
Will also be interested in watching this interview. Whoever was 'originally' responsible for the area bombing tactics must have felt it was the only option left to end the war. Its also very easy to criticize all these years later, hinesight is a wonderful thing.
Im travelling with my dad to see the Bomber Command memorial this Saturday as its exactly 70 years when my uncle was killed in action. He was a pilot on Lancs with 100 squadron. He died February 15th 1943.
I'm looking forward to it.
Im travelling with my dad to see the Bomber Command memorial this Saturday as its exactly 70 years when my uncle was killed in action. He was a pilot on Lancs with 100 squadron. He died February 15th 1943.
I'm looking forward to it.
Edited by Waynester on Sunday 10th February 23:39
Good link, ta.
I think it's a bloody disgrace that there was even a hint of demonising and condemning what Harris and bomber command did during the war.
It's war - and against some pretty nasty, inhuman enemies that had no regard for convention or respect for life at the time.
The crews selflessly gave their dedication and in most cases lives to defend and save decency, respect and the freedom of our island against massive odds.
For every allied bomb dropped that was easily and comfortably scrutinised after the war as being 'inhuman' and 'questionable', I might direct you to a single life cruelly mis-treated and murdered in a concentration camp. No?
I think it's a bloody disgrace that there was even a hint of demonising and condemning what Harris and bomber command did during the war.
It's war - and against some pretty nasty, inhuman enemies that had no regard for convention or respect for life at the time.
The crews selflessly gave their dedication and in most cases lives to defend and save decency, respect and the freedom of our island against massive odds.
For every allied bomb dropped that was easily and comfortably scrutinised after the war as being 'inhuman' and 'questionable', I might direct you to a single life cruelly mis-treated and murdered in a concentration camp. No?
Tango13 said:
Simpo Two said:
Starting with Guernica of course...
Might I make so bold as to suggest you read some factual history? Guernica was great art but very poor history.The main drivers behind the policy of area bombing German cities were Winston Churchill and his chief adviser, Lord Cherwell.
Following the results of the Butt Report of August 1941 it became clear that Bomber Command was incapable of night time precision attacks on specific military and strategic targets. The only solution was to aim for something really big - like city centres.
When Bomber Command resumed its efforts in 1942 following the hiatus after the Butt Report it adopted this new "area bombing" principle. Arthur Harris took over as Commander in Chief of Bomber Command just after this change in policy had been decided.
Following the results of the Butt Report of August 1941 it became clear that Bomber Command was incapable of night time precision attacks on specific military and strategic targets. The only solution was to aim for something really big - like city centres.
When Bomber Command resumed its efforts in 1942 following the hiatus after the Butt Report it adopted this new "area bombing" principle. Arthur Harris took over as Commander in Chief of Bomber Command just after this change in policy had been decided.
Thats my understanding as well. I don't remember which one, but in one of my books it says they did a study and found that a huge number (I'll say 40% but thats working on my dodgy memory) of bombs landed more than 12 miles from the intended target.
This was mainly because the way they ran the operations was to say "ok chaps, target is as so and so co-ordinates, off you go". No GPS remember so it was all dead reckoning and it wasn't always accurate, either due to human mistake or cloud cover etc. Later waves of bombers would drop early due to creep back.
By the end of the war we had highly trained and experienced path finders who could accurately mark a target, the creep back problems weren't totally solved but it was much less of a problem. At times they even had some planes circling the target area at high altitude directing and managing the incoming waves of allied aircraft to better manage the situation. So at the end of the war we could of been doing precision bombing - at least far more effectively than we were at the start but it wasn't policy (at least for the most part).
I find the whole bomber command story one of the more interesting of the war.
This was mainly because the way they ran the operations was to say "ok chaps, target is as so and so co-ordinates, off you go". No GPS remember so it was all dead reckoning and it wasn't always accurate, either due to human mistake or cloud cover etc. Later waves of bombers would drop early due to creep back.
By the end of the war we had highly trained and experienced path finders who could accurately mark a target, the creep back problems weren't totally solved but it was much less of a problem. At times they even had some planes circling the target area at high altitude directing and managing the incoming waves of allied aircraft to better manage the situation. So at the end of the war we could of been doing precision bombing - at least far more effectively than we were at the start but it wasn't policy (at least for the most part).
I find the whole bomber command story one of the more interesting of the war.
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Good link, ta.
I think it's a bloody disgrace that there was even a hint of demonising and condemning what Harris and bomber command did during the war.
It's war - and against some pretty nasty, inhuman enemies that had no regard for convention or respect for life at the time.
The crews selflessly gave their dedication and in most cases lives to defend and save decency, respect and the freedom of our island against massive odds.
For every allied bomb dropped that was easily and comfortably scrutinised after the war as being 'inhuman' and 'questionable', I might direct you to a single life cruelly mis-treated and murdered in a concentration camp. No?
My grandfather was an engineer (ground crew) on Halifaxes among many other things and I also find the hindsight view of the bombing campaign to be rather distasteful in that it fails to recognise the bravery of the crews and their families and it fails to understand the groundswell of support for the bombing throughout the country.I think it's a bloody disgrace that there was even a hint of demonising and condemning what Harris and bomber command did during the war.
It's war - and against some pretty nasty, inhuman enemies that had no regard for convention or respect for life at the time.
The crews selflessly gave their dedication and in most cases lives to defend and save decency, respect and the freedom of our island against massive odds.
For every allied bomb dropped that was easily and comfortably scrutinised after the war as being 'inhuman' and 'questionable', I might direct you to a single life cruelly mis-treated and murdered in a concentration camp. No?
Aside from any tactical benefit brought by the allied bombing campaign, for all those living among the rubble of blitz- stricken cities such as Coventry, Plymouth and London, the concept that all the chaos and horror wrought by the Luftwaffe would not go unanswered was incredibly important. That sense of striking back at the bully and fighting fire with fire is a little unfashionable to many modern eyes but had a great deal of 'traction' (as they say) in the Britain of 1943.
Arthur Harris was employed to lead Bomber Command and any analysis of the bombing campaign should focus on whether he was an effective leader, whether his was an effective strategy for fighting the tyranny of Nazi Germany and - importantly - whether it shortened the war, rather than whether it stands up to the scrutiny of 21st century morals. I find contemporary moral judgements about the actions of Oliver Cromwell (and many other historical figures) equally difficult to fathom.
One of the worst things people do is apply contemporary morality to historical figures and events. I suppose its part of the way history is taught these days. "Write 1,000 words as life as a medieval peasant" when you could have no effing idea what it was like.
As for the bomber campaign; I suppose it's one of those areas that the military isn't exactly proud of, but they know it was necessary to win. Snipers, submarines & the SAS being other notable examples.
Seeing some of that interview with Harris, he may have looked like a genial Arther Lowe character, but you could tell he was not someone to be messed with. Even retired like he was, he still had all the steel. I'm glad people like him were on our side.
As for the bomber campaign; I suppose it's one of those areas that the military isn't exactly proud of, but they know it was necessary to win. Snipers, submarines & the SAS being other notable examples.
Seeing some of that interview with Harris, he may have looked like a genial Arther Lowe character, but you could tell he was not someone to be messed with. Even retired like he was, he still had all the steel. I'm glad people like him were on our side.
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