Dealing with a busy manager
Discussion
Hi All,
I work full-time in IT. All is well but one thing I lack is a relationship with my manager that has open communication. For example, my objectives are set for me to do things, while not very technical (But a good learning curve) are the first time I've done them but with no direction from said manager.
My manager also is leaving my 2nd review pending "after client meetings", which did not happen today (so annoying!!) leaving me with little direction.
Emails I send get no reply, like maybe 1/10 (if that!). This is not the only manager in the company who is like this, and managers in my previous company were the same. It is highly annoying and makes me not bother to contribute ideas to the company and sucks some morale out of the role I am in.
What can you do to open up a constant channel of communication when your manager is always in meetings (not even in the office but on client sites)? It's pretty naive of my manager to set objectives but no catch-ups between reviews!
Thanks
I work full-time in IT. All is well but one thing I lack is a relationship with my manager that has open communication. For example, my objectives are set for me to do things, while not very technical (But a good learning curve) are the first time I've done them but with no direction from said manager.
My manager also is leaving my 2nd review pending "after client meetings", which did not happen today (so annoying!!) leaving me with little direction.
Emails I send get no reply, like maybe 1/10 (if that!). This is not the only manager in the company who is like this, and managers in my previous company were the same. It is highly annoying and makes me not bother to contribute ideas to the company and sucks some morale out of the role I am in.
What can you do to open up a constant channel of communication when your manager is always in meetings (not even in the office but on client sites)? It's pretty naive of my manager to set objectives but no catch-ups between reviews!
Thanks
A lot will depend on, how many people he manages.
If you want feedback, direction, compliments, b
kings etc, then a regular review, weekly monthly can be setup with you being the aggressor by arranging the meetings, do it officially and with clear objectives.
If you want to sit back and blend into the furniture then so be it.. (Doesn't sound like you do)
As a manager, I welcome the opportunity to let my guys know what is going on, good and bad. But, I am always too busy to speak with them.
If you want feedback, direction, compliments, b
kings etc, then a regular review, weekly monthly can be setup with you being the aggressor by arranging the meetings, do it officially and with clear objectives.If you want to sit back and blend into the furniture then so be it.. (Doesn't sound like you do)
As a manager, I welcome the opportunity to let my guys know what is going on, good and bad. But, I am always too busy to speak with them.
bridgdav said:
A lot will depend on, how many people he manages.
If you want feedback, direction, compliments, bkings etc, then a regular review, weekly monthly can be setup with you being the aggressor by arranging the meetings, do it officially and with clear objectives.
If you want to sit back and blend into the furniture then so be it.. (Doesn't sound like you do)
As a manager, I welcome the opportunity to let my guys know what is going on, good and bad. But, I am always too busy to speak with them.
I agree with all of this. I will often feel guilty not to have more time with junior staff, but there are always competing priorities. I would respect you if you asked me if it was ok to set up an outlook appointment for 10 minutes a week to talk about progress.If you want feedback, direction, compliments, b
kings etc, then a regular review, weekly monthly can be setup with you being the aggressor by arranging the meetings, do it officially and with clear objectives.If you want to sit back and blend into the furniture then so be it.. (Doesn't sound like you do)
As a manager, I welcome the opportunity to let my guys know what is going on, good and bad. But, I am always too busy to speak with them.
If you do get this set up though, make sure you are at the door at the appointed time every week, otherwise he might assume you have nothing to talk about and move onto other priorities.
Hi all,
This is all great advice. I am fairly young in my career (Worked for 3 yrs) but to ask a question like this in an infant career shows some enthusiasm.
However, I think there is a line between managing my manager (something I take an interest in and read about) and reminding him of his responsibilities towards his team. Late last year our company hired a dedicated HR professional to develop HR processes and procedures for reviews etc.
My manager's job is to do my review (done) and then formalise it by writing it up and sending me back my review form (Where I list my objectives etc). None of this has been done. I'm not hear to moan and b**ch about it, I WILL follow this up.
What really annoys me is that my manager has responsibilities to fulfill towards me but he would rather browse youtube and BBC News, even if for two minutes. Not much I can do about it.
I can and will send an email to ask about booking something in the calendar, but if this is an email, do I not fall into the same trap re no email responses?
This is all great advice. I am fairly young in my career (Worked for 3 yrs) but to ask a question like this in an infant career shows some enthusiasm.
However, I think there is a line between managing my manager (something I take an interest in and read about) and reminding him of his responsibilities towards his team. Late last year our company hired a dedicated HR professional to develop HR processes and procedures for reviews etc.
My manager's job is to do my review (done) and then formalise it by writing it up and sending me back my review form (Where I list my objectives etc). None of this has been done. I'm not hear to moan and b**ch about it, I WILL follow this up.
What really annoys me is that my manager has responsibilities to fulfill towards me but he would rather browse youtube and BBC News, even if for two minutes. Not much I can do about it.
I can and will send an email to ask about booking something in the calendar, but if this is an email, do I not fall into the same trap re no email responses?
Might it be that staff should be the priority above all other tasks? Without a fully engaged and motivated workforce, the other tasks are superfluous and the organisation will not be as effective as it could be. A highly engaged, well managed and led workforce may indeed create the time and space through higher productivity that will allow a manager to delegate more effectively and thus will be able to spend more time with staff.
One of the problems is that bad management practice prospers as a result of a lack of effective training and development:
http://www.managers.org.uk/news/poor-management-ho...
One of the problems is that bad management practice prospers as a result of a lack of effective training and development:
http://www.managers.org.uk/news/poor-management-ho...
bridgdav said:
As a manager, I welcome the opportunity to let my guys know what is going on, good and bad. But, I am always too busy to speak with them.
When a manager is 'too busy' to talk to his team, it means that he considers the other things he does are more important than knowing what his team is up to.In these circumstances the individual team members can decide to (a) dick about and do f
k all - which will ultimately get them and their manager into trouble, or (b) crack on with the job, do what needs to be done, and tell their manager what they've done after they've done it. This will usually be good for both team and manager.It's generally not good for an individual to be seen as 'high maintenance' (ie needing excessive management attention) by the management. Being prepared to work on their own initiative, OTOH, is generally seen as being a good thing.
I've always look at management as controlling the flow of st and filtering what comes from above while making sure the team have every resource to do their job to the best of their abilities - that includes welfare etc...
In my book his responsibility should be to you and your colleagues first - get you guys sorted and happy then he's free to deal with the other stuff knowing you are now producing the goods, happy and working for the good of the team.
Be assertive with him - pin down a date in the diary and hopefully he'll stick to it. If this fails a number of times take it up the line - politely informing him that he leaves you little option. You've made the effort.
t and filtering what comes from above while making sure the team have every resource to do their job to the best of their abilities - that includes welfare etc...In my book his responsibility should be to you and your colleagues first - get you guys sorted and happy then he's free to deal with the other stuff knowing you are now producing the goods, happy and working for the good of the team.
Be assertive with him - pin down a date in the diary and hopefully he'll stick to it. If this fails a number of times take it up the line - politely informing him that he leaves you little option. You've made the effort.
Lets not forget your manager has his/her own review too.
Like what others said you need to be more proactive. Document communications in a structured manner. Make sure you hit all your targets and if not ensure you have approached your manager formally. I'm not sure what your role is exactly but it is good to have a monthly feedback/review meeting with your line manager.
Managers are the easiest to replace and bad managers will not last long.
Like what others said you need to be more proactive. Document communications in a structured manner. Make sure you hit all your targets and if not ensure you have approached your manager formally. I'm not sure what your role is exactly but it is good to have a monthly feedback/review meeting with your line manager.
Managers are the easiest to replace and bad managers will not last long.
crazy about cars said:
Managers are the easiest to replace and bad managers will not last long.
Really? There are several managers that I work with that would be far from easy to replace. If (for example) I had a team of 10 developers and a manager/team lead who understood how the team worked, had built resilience into the team to reduce the risk of losing a 'hero', how to deal with their personalities to get the best out of them, then I'm sure it'd be easier to replace a developer than their manager.
yajeed said:
Really? There are several managers that I work with that would be far from easy to replace.
If (for example) I had a team of 10 developers and a manager/team lead who understood how the team worked, had built resilience into the team to reduce the risk of losing a 'hero', how to deal with their personalities to get the best out of them, then I'm sure it'd be easier to replace a developer than their manager.
There's always the good ones and the really bad ones. If the said developer had plenty of proven experience in the field he/she would be a valuable asset.If (for example) I had a team of 10 developers and a manager/team lead who understood how the team worked, had built resilience into the team to reduce the risk of losing a 'hero', how to deal with their personalities to get the best out of them, then I'm sure it'd be easier to replace a developer than their manager.
Senior management aside, managers are there to manage his team to ensure maximum productivity. The job requires good communication with the team. I have been in circumstances where I know more about the department compared to the manager as he was too busy trying to impress his boss (regional chief).
Z064life said:
Hi all,
This is all great advice. I am fairly young in my career (Worked for 3 yrs) but to ask a question like this in an infant career shows some enthusiasm.
However, I think there is a line between managing my manager (something I take an interest in and read about) and reminding him of his responsibilities towards his team. Late last year our company hired a dedicated HR professional to develop HR processes and procedures for reviews etc.
My manager's job is to do my review (done) and then formalise it by writing it up and sending me back my review form (Where I list my objectives etc). None of this has been done. I'm not hear to moan and b**ch about it, I WILL follow this up.
What really annoys me is that my manager has responsibilities to fulfill towards me but he would rather browse youtube and BBC News, even if for two minutes. Not much I can do about it.
I can and will send an email to ask about booking something in the calendar, but if this is an email, do I not fall into the same trap re no email responses?
There is a danger here that you are being a little self centred. Try to see it from his point of view. He may be massively busy, so those 2 minutes on BBC sport might be the tiny respite he needs to refresh and then concentrate on the tasks in hand. Also, whilst you may want a close relationship his job role might not include any obligation to do this. Many mananagers are not natural man managers and find the role foisted on them as they get promoted with little or no training.This is all great advice. I am fairly young in my career (Worked for 3 yrs) but to ask a question like this in an infant career shows some enthusiasm.
However, I think there is a line between managing my manager (something I take an interest in and read about) and reminding him of his responsibilities towards his team. Late last year our company hired a dedicated HR professional to develop HR processes and procedures for reviews etc.
My manager's job is to do my review (done) and then formalise it by writing it up and sending me back my review form (Where I list my objectives etc). None of this has been done. I'm not hear to moan and b**ch about it, I WILL follow this up.
What really annoys me is that my manager has responsibilities to fulfill towards me but he would rather browse youtube and BBC News, even if for two minutes. Not much I can do about it.
I can and will send an email to ask about booking something in the calendar, but if this is an email, do I not fall into the same trap re no email responses?
I agree its hugely frustrating as I am in a similar situation. I would suggest you write your own review notes up and sendthe, to him for review and amendment as a gentle remider. I suggest you also learn how to aet your own objectives and beat them without having to be monitored.then at the next appraisal you can impress him with thr independent work you have done.
If you whinge at work about his management skills be prepared for a backlash when he finds out or his boss finds out.
Hi All,
Ok I didn't think my experience etc would be mentioned. Well I've had several reviews and passed probation, everyone is happy with me and my skills and performance. That's not an issue at all.
Ok so it seems like I need to manage my career and my boss even more. Our process is to write our review form pre-appraisal and our objectives etc. Afterwards, manager fills in agreed objectives. This hasn't happened yet and one discussed objective is way too vague. I won't start it, and do something not quite what is required and waste my and my manager's time.
I agree, the thing I said about BBC News etc is quite self-centered of me but as I have learnt, it's all perceptions, which are formed very quickly. I know that the time invested in watching a youtube vid and doing a review are very different, but if you see your subordinate playing around you will think he has free time. This has nothing to do with someone's position, so the same thought process goes up the chain of command as well as down.
So I guess what I need are suggestions about how to get as much feedback from my manager to ensure I am doing 100% in my job. I do enough on my own with SWOT analyses, using kanban to manage my workload, etc.
I will set my own objectives which I can then monitor myself and provide indications that I have beaten them. I can think of a few examples of this, so it's a good idea.
crazy about cars - you mention document communications. What are you thinking? I've got an email folder to store discussions about objectives, praise, etc.
Asterix - my employment handbook is similar. Unfortunately that does not happen.
What would be a good idea, and is the case in other teams, is one manager, is that someone below the manager (and there are two candidates in the team for this) conducts appraisals and ensures that staff is happy while my manager does what the business really needs from him and goes out to clients to win new business etc.
BTW my appraisals are every 6 months.
Ok I didn't think my experience etc would be mentioned. Well I've had several reviews and passed probation, everyone is happy with me and my skills and performance. That's not an issue at all.
Ok so it seems like I need to manage my career and my boss even more. Our process is to write our review form pre-appraisal and our objectives etc. Afterwards, manager fills in agreed objectives. This hasn't happened yet and one discussed objective is way too vague. I won't start it, and do something not quite what is required and waste my and my manager's time.
I agree, the thing I said about BBC News etc is quite self-centered of me but as I have learnt, it's all perceptions, which are formed very quickly. I know that the time invested in watching a youtube vid and doing a review are very different, but if you see your subordinate playing around you will think he has free time. This has nothing to do with someone's position, so the same thought process goes up the chain of command as well as down.
So I guess what I need are suggestions about how to get as much feedback from my manager to ensure I am doing 100% in my job. I do enough on my own with SWOT analyses, using kanban to manage my workload, etc.
I will set my own objectives which I can then monitor myself and provide indications that I have beaten them. I can think of a few examples of this, so it's a good idea.
crazy about cars - you mention document communications. What are you thinking? I've got an email folder to store discussions about objectives, praise, etc.
Asterix - my employment handbook is similar. Unfortunately that does not happen.
What would be a good idea, and is the case in other teams, is one manager, is that someone below the manager (and there are two candidates in the team for this) conducts appraisals and ensures that staff is happy while my manager does what the business really needs from him and goes out to clients to win new business etc.
BTW my appraisals are every 6 months.
Hey.
One suggestion I have is to stop e-mailing your manager unless really necessary. It's tempting to sit behind your screen and fire the corner office mails, isn't it? But I think the position you've got yourself into is where you've totally by accident, become a bit of a distraction. Perhaps even annoying from his POV.
Instead of e-mailing maybe don't do anything at all. Try to build some rapport rather than raising issues. Or at least take it a bit easier. Ask him if he has 5 mins for a coffee.
Presumably, he'd come to you if something was up - management is normally bi-directional
For people on probation under me, its actually a bit of a worry if in the first few months they become annoying, or an admin nightmare, or just a bit needy
No offense - trying to paint a picture from the other side of the fence. Although I accept your manager could be a complete dwad!
HTH
One suggestion I have is to stop e-mailing your manager unless really necessary. It's tempting to sit behind your screen and fire the corner office mails, isn't it? But I think the position you've got yourself into is where you've totally by accident, become a bit of a distraction. Perhaps even annoying from his POV.
Instead of e-mailing maybe don't do anything at all. Try to build some rapport rather than raising issues. Or at least take it a bit easier. Ask him if he has 5 mins for a coffee.
Presumably, he'd come to you if something was up - management is normally bi-directional
For people on probation under me, its actually a bit of a worry if in the first few months they become annoying, or an admin nightmare, or just a bit needy
No offense - trying to paint a picture from the other side of the fence. Although I accept your manager could be a complete dwad!
HTH
guess there are two issues here;
1) you do have to manage your own career, perhaps if you look at 'quid pro quo' style development rather than the current approach, which seems to be rather rule book driven. so offer to take on other tasks he/she may have to do in return for a little help.
2) it never ceases to amaze me how employees forget managers are people too - I had a bloke work for me who would sit next to me, helpless and sulky, until I sat with him and talked him through what he needed to do, and this was a routine task he did in cycle. it didn't matter that I was put behind by his demands, and I had to work late into the evening. in the past I have had people grumble because I have visited the gents shortly after saying I was too busy to help them.
sometimes, you have to help yourself...
1) you do have to manage your own career, perhaps if you look at 'quid pro quo' style development rather than the current approach, which seems to be rather rule book driven. so offer to take on other tasks he/she may have to do in return for a little help.
2) it never ceases to amaze me how employees forget managers are people too - I had a bloke work for me who would sit next to me, helpless and sulky, until I sat with him and talked him through what he needed to do, and this was a routine task he did in cycle. it didn't matter that I was put behind by his demands, and I had to work late into the evening. in the past I have had people grumble because I have visited the gents shortly after saying I was too busy to help them.
sometimes, you have to help yourself...
beeej said:
For people on probation under me, its actually a bit of a worry if in the first few months they become annoying, or an admin nightmare, or just a bit needy
I took on three juniors in September last year. The female of the bunch is beginning to follow the path you mention!The thing is, she just pisses me off with the neediness and constant asking of quite obvious questions...I am not even her manager.
Juniors sometimes just don't understand that frankly, they aren't often really that important. Developing the next generation is wonderful and important and all that stuff but the here and now will always take priority.
On the whole I think most under 25s need their hand holding quite a bit.
We have annual reviews in our company, but I've always maintained that monthly meetings to catch up and share feedback 2 way is important.
I will book in the meetings with my (8) staff over the year in advance and if a meeting needs to be rescheduled I will ensure it is within a week (unless 2 week hol).
These meetings can be 10 mins to an hour max (any more and it's not productive for either party) depending on how they are. It's simply a good way to discuss career progression, morale, team members, workload etc in a structured way.
I'll record the meeting, points raised and actions, send them a copy and review at the next meeting.
As someone said, staff are the priority, if a manager is too busy to meet, they aren't delegating enough! I would try and book some time into your managers calendar yourself.
I will book in the meetings with my (8) staff over the year in advance and if a meeting needs to be rescheduled I will ensure it is within a week (unless 2 week hol).
These meetings can be 10 mins to an hour max (any more and it's not productive for either party) depending on how they are. It's simply a good way to discuss career progression, morale, team members, workload etc in a structured way.
I'll record the meeting, points raised and actions, send them a copy and review at the next meeting.
As someone said, staff are the priority, if a manager is too busy to meet, they aren't delegating enough! I would try and book some time into your managers calendar yourself.
Edited by bint on Monday 18th February 08:06
Good to hear that you workplace has a structured system when it comes to performance reviews.
I can understand that your manager is busy but as a good manager, he/she will always make time for the team if approached. By document sting communications I mean keep an organised history (emails or any other forms of communication) between you and your manager where it would be easily accessible. When you do have your review bring them in and politely tell him about your concerns and also show him the evidence of your attempts in raising this issue with him. A good manager will take note of this and will hopefully never repeat the same thing in the future.
Working in IT it is always very important to keep everything documented, organised and easily accessible.
I can understand that your manager is busy but as a good manager, he/she will always make time for the team if approached. By document sting communications I mean keep an organised history (emails or any other forms of communication) between you and your manager where it would be easily accessible. When you do have your review bring them in and politely tell him about your concerns and also show him the evidence of your attempts in raising this issue with him. A good manager will take note of this and will hopefully never repeat the same thing in the future.
Working in IT it is always very important to keep everything documented, organised and easily accessible.
Hi guys,
There is some great advice in this thread. RE the last poster, yep working in IT it is def paramount to document things (server configurations, passwords, etc).
However, back to my issue...
I do more than enough to manage my own career (see previous examples, although this is really more being proactive). Another such example is taking the lead to ask my manager about my performance in my first week. I guess that's what the managers here want from junior staff.
However, I don't see how my manager not being able to set an objective with enough information and some direction, and not being available to have a catch-up discussion on it (which is better than leave me to it for 6 months and then realise I do it wrong and everyone's time is wasted) is anything to do with my being needy.
Don't get me wrong, as I am young I make mistakes (not of the technical kind) and may ask my manager (in any of my previous jobs) needy questions, but I am much more alert of this now and don't do it. In this example, asking for direction on my objectives is not me being needy, but in fact taking initiative. I can't make up that info myself and only my manager can provide it. And yes, he does not delegate enough as most of the power is with him, so he is the bottleneck I guess.
There is some great advice in this thread. RE the last poster, yep working in IT it is def paramount to document things (server configurations, passwords, etc).
However, back to my issue...
I do more than enough to manage my own career (see previous examples, although this is really more being proactive). Another such example is taking the lead to ask my manager about my performance in my first week. I guess that's what the managers here want from junior staff.
However, I don't see how my manager not being able to set an objective with enough information and some direction, and not being available to have a catch-up discussion on it (which is better than leave me to it for 6 months and then realise I do it wrong and everyone's time is wasted) is anything to do with my being needy.
Don't get me wrong, as I am young I make mistakes (not of the technical kind) and may ask my manager (in any of my previous jobs) needy questions, but I am much more alert of this now and don't do it. In this example, asking for direction on my objectives is not me being needy, but in fact taking initiative. I can't make up that info myself and only my manager can provide it. And yes, he does not delegate enough as most of the power is with him, so he is the bottleneck I guess.
Z064life said:
Hi guys,
Don't get me wrong, as I am young I make mistakes (not of the technical kind) and may ask my manager (in any of my previous jobs) needy questions, but I am much more alert of this now and don't do it. In this example, asking for direction on my objectives is not me being needy, but in fact taking initiative. I can't make up that info myself and only my manager can provide it. And yes, he does not delegate enough as most of the power is with him, so he is the bottleneck I guess.
It might be better to have a think about what your department is doing, what your role demands, and what your personal development goals are. Then figure out a set of SMART (ie Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, and Timed) objectives for yourself. Be careful to make them ambitious but not overly so, you have to be confident that you can deliver on them (or be fired), but if they are trivial, or things you could do in your spare time, eg "Learn how to program in language X" you may find yourself not being taken seriously.Don't get me wrong, as I am young I make mistakes (not of the technical kind) and may ask my manager (in any of my previous jobs) needy questions, but I am much more alert of this now and don't do it. In this example, asking for direction on my objectives is not me being needy, but in fact taking initiative. I can't make up that info myself and only my manager can provide it. And yes, he does not delegate enough as most of the power is with him, so he is the bottleneck I guess.
Make sure you can confidently explain the value proposition to the organisation, especially for objectives like "Attend at least one major international programmer's symposium in the Bahamas by Q3 2013". You need to be able to present a short credible chain of reasoning "IfI do X then Y will happen and the company will achieve objective Z"
Then present these to your manager as a proposal. This is very likely to be seen as genuinely proactive and be appreciated, even if he doesn't agree with all of them. Worst case scenario is that he will replace your proposal with his own, most likely is he will tell you to get on with it.
It's your career. No-one else is going to manage it for you.
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