German cars...less reliable but more long lasting?
Discussion
Theres been a fair bit of press recently about unreliable german cars and reliable japanese cars, but I cant help noticing that a fair proportion of older (15 years or more) cars on the road that are still going strong and look tidy are german. Yip, all those E36 and E39 beemers, early Audi A4s, Merc W124s and so on. By comparison, where are all the old, Toyota corollas and Carina Es? Toyota sold loads of these ultra reliable cars in the 90s but you never see one now. Mazda is another make praised for building reliable cars, but you rarely see an old one on Uk roads...on the other hand older Hondas are still quite plentiful
I have a theory that many failures on german cars are due to the sort of smaller components that the Japs get to work reliably, but once these bits are repaired, the likes of BMW, Audi, Merc, VW, do seem to have an inherent sturdiness and robustness that sees them into old age..
.what do you think is there something to this, or is it just that the german cars have a bigger following or enthusiasts that keep them going, whereas no ones bothered about a boring old Toyota hatch?!!
I have a theory that many failures on german cars are due to the sort of smaller components that the Japs get to work reliably, but once these bits are repaired, the likes of BMW, Audi, Merc, VW, do seem to have an inherent sturdiness and robustness that sees them into old age..
.what do you think is there something to this, or is it just that the german cars have a bigger following or enthusiasts that keep them going, whereas no ones bothered about a boring old Toyota hatch?!!
Bezza1969 said:
Theres been a fair bit of press recently about unreliable german cars and reliable japanese cars, but I cant help noticing that a fair proportion of older (15 years or more) cars on the road that are still going strong and look tidy are german. Yip, all those E36 and E39 beemers, early Audi A4s, Merc W124s and so on. By comparison, where are all the old, Toyota corollas and Carina Es? Toyota sold loads of these ultra reliable cars in the 90s but you never see one now. Mazda is another make praised for building reliable cars, but you rarely see an old one on Uk roads...on the other hand older Hondas are still quite plentiful
I have a theory that many failures on german cars are due to the sort of smaller components that the Japs get to work reliably, but once these bits are repaired, the likes of BMW, Audi, Merc, VW, do seem to have an inherent sturdiness and robustness that sees them into old age..
.what do you think is there something to this, or is it just that the german cars have a bigger following or enthusiasts that keep them going, whereas no ones bothered about a boring old Toyota hatch?!!
it's the type of people that buy them, not how they are built IMO.I have a theory that many failures on german cars are due to the sort of smaller components that the Japs get to work reliably, but once these bits are repaired, the likes of BMW, Audi, Merc, VW, do seem to have an inherent sturdiness and robustness that sees them into old age..
.what do you think is there something to this, or is it just that the german cars have a bigger following or enthusiasts that keep them going, whereas no ones bothered about a boring old Toyota hatch?!!
company cars all have free servicing to the user. given how many company cars have traditionally been bmws, mercs and audis, even vws it accounts for quite a bit.
next up is the perception. people think vws etc are reliable, so they take a punt on them, and at 10yo they resell really well. because they cost more at 10yo, people take more care of them.
Larger German motors cost more and IMO are more desirable, so tend to get looked after and cherished a bit more. Jap stuff on the other hand is far less desirable and often cheaper, so it gets binned earlier.
I have a mate with an S plate 1.4i Civic - he's done as little as possible (other than minimal oil services) for many (6,7?) years and tens of thousands of miles, and has never missed a beat. Hardly something to fall in love with, though..
I have a mate with an S plate 1.4i Civic - he's done as little as possible (other than minimal oil services) for many (6,7?) years and tens of thousands of miles, and has never missed a beat. Hardly something to fall in love with, though..
Its nothing to do with vehicle longevity, just to do with the fact someone is more likely to spend money to repair an old Merc than an old Carina E that is worth pennies.
The more desireable Jap cars will still be kept going as they are worth saving.
To be fair its more about the owners than the cars. My local mechanic had to source and fit an engine in a Vauxhall Carlton (which was worth basically nothing) for a customer that had it from new and just refused to let it die, lots of money spent and certainly not worth it. This demographic is more commonly a German car owner.
The more desireable Jap cars will still be kept going as they are worth saving.
To be fair its more about the owners than the cars. My local mechanic had to source and fit an engine in a Vauxhall Carlton (which was worth basically nothing) for a customer that had it from new and just refused to let it die, lots of money spent and certainly not worth it. This demographic is more commonly a German car owner.
German cars seem to be built with genuine enthusiasm...and they are nicer to look at.
Japanese cars on the other hand, are seriously flawed in more than one department; be it exterior, interior, engine, or how they drive. They can be efficient and reliable all they want but they have zero character and are never marketed in that way. If you market your car as the ultimate driving machine you can bet your a*s that a lot of owners will push the car harder.
It might explain why Lexus and Japanese cars last longer-they aren't driven as hard as their German rivals and are seen as just reliable steeds.
Japanese cars on the other hand, are seriously flawed in more than one department; be it exterior, interior, engine, or how they drive. They can be efficient and reliable all they want but they have zero character and are never marketed in that way. If you market your car as the ultimate driving machine you can bet your a*s that a lot of owners will push the car harder.
It might explain why Lexus and Japanese cars last longer-they aren't driven as hard as their German rivals and are seen as just reliable steeds.
davepoth said:
Not just the new price, but residuals as well - German cars hold their price well for one reason or another, and that makes people want to spend a bit of money on them.
This is the reason. Residuals are higher on the german cars so people are more willing to pay the money to get them through another MoT or put in a clutch etc. My Mazda is currently suffering from this - its a great car, very reliable, drives very well but needs a clutch and a cambelt which would almost equal its value, so it'll get run until it breaks or fails an MoT then get scrapped or broken for parts. If it was a german marque with the same issues but its residual was worth 3 times the parts I wouldn't hesitate to keep it running.
daveco said:
German cars seem to be built with genuine enthusiasm...and they are nicer to look at.
Japanese cars on the other hand, are seriously flawed in more than one department; be it exterior, interior, engine, or how they drive. They can be efficient and reliable all they want but they have zero character and are never marketed in that way. If you market your car as the ultimate driving machine you can bet your a*s that a lot of owners will push the car harder.
It might explain why Lexus and Japanese cars last longer-they aren't driven as hard as their German rivals and are seen as just reliable steeds.
A few generalisations there. I can think of plenty of Jap cars with loads more character than German cars and vice versa. I can also think of plenty of German cars that are seriously flawed in many departments.Japanese cars on the other hand, are seriously flawed in more than one department; be it exterior, interior, engine, or how they drive. They can be efficient and reliable all they want but they have zero character and are never marketed in that way. If you market your car as the ultimate driving machine you can bet your a*s that a lot of owners will push the car harder.
It might explain why Lexus and Japanese cars last longer-they aren't driven as hard as their German rivals and are seen as just reliable steeds.
In fact most German cars really are the epitomy of dull, but then dull cars are what sell en mass.
If you think the average bog standard Golf is driven harder than the average bog standard Civic then I think you are just mad.
I don`t think BMW`s are marketed as "The Ultimate Driving Machine" anymore, they knew they couldn`t continue with that silliness. Marketed as "Efficient Dynamics" now. Very exciting.
I imagine the marketing has little impact on how the cars are driven anyway, they are often driven around at full speed everywhere with no use of indicators just like every diesel Vectra usually is. Look I can make silly generalisations too.
Corrosion is also an issue, jap cars are poor in this respect a lot of them still come with metal fuel tanks for example.
If you ever get to see a fresh import up on a ramp the reason becomes clear. A 10-15 year old car looks as though it's just driven out the showroom, it's to do with the jap climate, thus cars are built accordingly.
In my experience German cars are better in this respect though still not great, I generally find the french cars to be the best in this department.
I would agree that the value plays a large factor aswell.
If you ever get to see a fresh import up on a ramp the reason becomes clear. A 10-15 year old car looks as though it's just driven out the showroom, it's to do with the jap climate, thus cars are built accordingly.
In my experience German cars are better in this respect though still not great, I generally find the french cars to be the best in this department.
I would agree that the value plays a large factor aswell.
rb5er said:
daveco said:
German cars seem to be built with genuine enthusiasm...and they are nicer to look at.
Japanese cars on the other hand, are seriously flawed in more than one department; be it exterior, interior, engine, or how they drive. They can be efficient and reliable all they want but they have zero character and are never marketed in that way. If you market your car as the ultimate driving machine you can bet your a*s that a lot of owners will push the car harder.
It might explain why Lexus and Japanese cars last longer-they aren't driven as hard as their German rivals and are seen as just reliable steeds.
A few generalisations there. I can think of plenty of Jap cars with loads more character than German cars and vice versa. I can also think of plenty of German cars that are seriously flawed in many departments.Japanese cars on the other hand, are seriously flawed in more than one department; be it exterior, interior, engine, or how they drive. They can be efficient and reliable all they want but they have zero character and are never marketed in that way. If you market your car as the ultimate driving machine you can bet your a*s that a lot of owners will push the car harder.
It might explain why Lexus and Japanese cars last longer-they aren't driven as hard as their German rivals and are seen as just reliable steeds.
In fact most German cars really are the epitomy of dull, but then dull cars are what sell en mass.
If you think the average bog standard Golf is driven harder than the average bog standard Civic then I think you are just mad.
I don`t think BMW`s are marketed as "The Ultimate Driving Machine" anymore, they knew they couldn`t continue with that silliness. Marketed as "Efficient Dynamics" now. Very exciting.
I imagine the marketing has little impact on how the cars are driven anyway, they are often driven around at full speed everywhere with no use of indicators just like every diesel Vectra usually is. Look I can make silly generalisations too.
sorry daveco, but "built with genuine enthusiasm"
enthusiastic bmw machine below:
unenthusiastic toyota machines here:
daveco said:
German cars seem to be built with genuine enthusiasm...and they are nicer to look at.
Japanese cars on the other hand, are seriously flawed in more than one department; be it exterior, interior, engine, or how they drive. They can be efficient and reliable all they want but they have zero character and are never marketed in that way. If you market your car as the ultimate driving machine you can bet your a*s that a lot of owners will push the car harder.
It might explain why Lexus and Japanese cars last longer-they aren't driven as hard as their German rivals and are seen as just reliable steeds.
Having seen BMW, Toyota, Mazda, and maybe Skoda? cars being made. I would say it appeared to me that the Japanese were more enthusiastic, heck even Hyundai were more enthusiastic, or so it appeared.Japanese cars on the other hand, are seriously flawed in more than one department; be it exterior, interior, engine, or how they drive. They can be efficient and reliable all they want but they have zero character and are never marketed in that way. If you market your car as the ultimate driving machine you can bet your a*s that a lot of owners will push the car harder.
It might explain why Lexus and Japanese cars last longer-they aren't driven as hard as their German rivals and are seen as just reliable steeds.
In fact, this guy wishes he never took on his job.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nGiZKQmODA
Edited by jamoor on Thursday 14th February 22:31
daveco said:
German cars seem to be built with genuine enthusiasm...and they are nicer to look at.
Japanese cars on the other hand, are seriously flawed in more than one department; be it exterior, interior, engine, or how they drive. They can be efficient and reliable all they want but they have zero character and are never marketed in that way. If you market your car as the ultimate driving machine you can bet your a*s that a lot of owners will push the car harder.
It might explain why Lexus and Japanese cars last longer-they aren't driven as hard as their German rivals and are seen as just reliable steeds.
What a bunch of nonsense.Japanese cars on the other hand, are seriously flawed in more than one department; be it exterior, interior, engine, or how they drive. They can be efficient and reliable all they want but they have zero character and are never marketed in that way. If you market your car as the ultimate driving machine you can bet your a*s that a lot of owners will push the car harder.
It might explain why Lexus and Japanese cars last longer-they aren't driven as hard as their German rivals and are seen as just reliable steeds.
davepoth said:
Not just the new price, but residuals as well - German cars hold their price well for one reason or another, and that makes people want to spend a bit of money on them.
And that's a uniquely UK thing - 10yr old mass-market cars here are practically worthless, so they're not worth fixing.In other countries used cars are much more expensive than the UK. Even in mainland Europe, they're far more expensive than they are here so they're kept going for much longer.
Edited by Deva Link on Friday 15th February 09:15
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