Garage problems - please help!
Discussion
Sorry for the cross post. I originally put this on the Beemer section, but it's actually a more general garage problem and I need all the advice I can get.
My E61 535D touring began experiencing problems starting in December, which steadily got worse. Starting from cold, the ending would turn over a bit and the motor would stop before the engine would kick in. Once warm, it would start fine. Other than that, the car is in good shape. My usual BMW specialist was left baffled after a couple of days and suggested that it was best to give it to an auto electrical specialist as they would have the required diagnostic kit to get to the bottom of the problem.
I took it to fairly major local auto electrical specialist. Long story short, the specialist has had my car for six weeks and has finally resolved the problem. Immediately, they put the diagnostic kit on and it showed a fuel feed problem which they diagnosed as injectors. They sent them to another branch and reconditioned them at £95 per injector plus labour, so nearly £1000 all said and done. It took a week until they them back in, after which it still would not start, but they claim the fault codes were different. There was then about two weeks of diagnostic work, after which they looked at the ECU and found green stuff on a connector and recognised water ingress. They sent the ECU to third party who confirmed it was fine and just required a replacement connector. The local guys then replaced the pins on my car's connector to avoid replacing the loom, which was great. Today, they finished the work and said it was fixed.
The whole bill is just shy of £2000 inc VAT
I did a bit of googling today and it seems that the ECU water ingress problem is relatively common, yet they were surprised that the unit's casing was compromised. It seems like they just took the sensor readings at face value and immediately decided on the injector refit. Even after the injectors came back, it seems like they didn't consider continuity of the wiring (I even asked them on the phone and they said they had). I raised the query today about the injectors and mis-diagnosis. They suggested that they still considered that the injectors were part of the original problem, but they did reduce the labour cost by £60. They also say they have already reduced my hourly rate and the amount of hours they are charging for. this is quite decent of them in some ways, but it feels like this could have been resolved much quicker and it seems to me like their diagnostic process wasn't great.
I'm not sure how to approach this now. I'd be willing to pay a significantly reduced rate for the injectors, as swapping them back is clearly a big job, but I feel a bit sick paying £1000 for work that was not the root cause. They told me that the injectors were pretty shot, but another garage told me today that 90% of injectors on running cars would fail an injector test, but will still run for a long time.
I am selling the car after this as I now have two children and one person working and cannot afford to run it any more, so I won't get any benefit from the replaced injectors!
What should I do? Am I being unreasonable to question this?
My E61 535D touring began experiencing problems starting in December, which steadily got worse. Starting from cold, the ending would turn over a bit and the motor would stop before the engine would kick in. Once warm, it would start fine. Other than that, the car is in good shape. My usual BMW specialist was left baffled after a couple of days and suggested that it was best to give it to an auto electrical specialist as they would have the required diagnostic kit to get to the bottom of the problem.
I took it to fairly major local auto electrical specialist. Long story short, the specialist has had my car for six weeks and has finally resolved the problem. Immediately, they put the diagnostic kit on and it showed a fuel feed problem which they diagnosed as injectors. They sent them to another branch and reconditioned them at £95 per injector plus labour, so nearly £1000 all said and done. It took a week until they them back in, after which it still would not start, but they claim the fault codes were different. There was then about two weeks of diagnostic work, after which they looked at the ECU and found green stuff on a connector and recognised water ingress. They sent the ECU to third party who confirmed it was fine and just required a replacement connector. The local guys then replaced the pins on my car's connector to avoid replacing the loom, which was great. Today, they finished the work and said it was fixed.
The whole bill is just shy of £2000 inc VAT
I did a bit of googling today and it seems that the ECU water ingress problem is relatively common, yet they were surprised that the unit's casing was compromised. It seems like they just took the sensor readings at face value and immediately decided on the injector refit. Even after the injectors came back, it seems like they didn't consider continuity of the wiring (I even asked them on the phone and they said they had). I raised the query today about the injectors and mis-diagnosis. They suggested that they still considered that the injectors were part of the original problem, but they did reduce the labour cost by £60. They also say they have already reduced my hourly rate and the amount of hours they are charging for. this is quite decent of them in some ways, but it feels like this could have been resolved much quicker and it seems to me like their diagnostic process wasn't great.
I'm not sure how to approach this now. I'd be willing to pay a significantly reduced rate for the injectors, as swapping them back is clearly a big job, but I feel a bit sick paying £1000 for work that was not the root cause. They told me that the injectors were pretty shot, but another garage told me today that 90% of injectors on running cars would fail an injector test, but will still run for a long time.
I am selling the car after this as I now have two children and one person working and cannot afford to run it any more, so I won't get any benefit from the replaced injectors!
What should I do? Am I being unreasonable to question this?
Not being funny but if they plug it in and it says the injectors are f
ked then why would they think it is lying? The whole purpose of these modern computer systems is to make fault diagnosis easier if you start questioning what it has told you then you might aswell not bother plugging it in to start with and resort to old fashioned fault diagnosis procedures.
It may not have been the root cause but they only got to the root cause by doing that first which then through up the new error codes.
I think you're being a bit tight but that's just my opinion, the garage doesn't sound like its been unreasonable at all to be honest, I feel your pain to an extent as I had a major failure on a car I was planning to get rid of just before Christmas and had to shell out to get it fixed before selling it.
ked then why would they think it is lying? The whole purpose of these modern computer systems is to make fault diagnosis easier if you start questioning what it has told you then you might aswell not bother plugging it in to start with and resort to old fashioned fault diagnosis procedures.It may not have been the root cause but they only got to the root cause by doing that first which then through up the new error codes.
I think you're being a bit tight but that's just my opinion, the garage doesn't sound like its been unreasonable at all to be honest, I feel your pain to an extent as I had a major failure on a car I was planning to get rid of just before Christmas and had to shell out to get it fixed before selling it.
That's fair enough. I'm not a mechanic, so I don't know if it is standard procedure to just replace everything the diagnostic computer suggests and then charge the customer even if it wasn't the root cause. I'm not trying to weasel out of paying, but I do want to make sure I am not paying for poor diagnosis.
It would seem to me that checking connections to sensors would be a good thing to do before embarking on £1000 of work, but I am not a mechanic - hence my cry for help!
It would seem to me that checking connections to sensors would be a good thing to do before embarking on £1000 of work, but I am not a mechanic - hence my cry for help!
misterduncan said:
That's fair enough. I'm not a mechanic, so I don't know if it is standard procedure to just replace everything the diagnostic computer suggests and then charge the customer even if it wasn't the root cause. I'm not trying to weasel out of paying, but I do want to make sure I am not paying for poor diagnosis!
I think that's what they do, sadly No mechanic should just go on what the computer tells him/her. The diagnostic equipment will help in tracing what area the problem is located say misfire cylinder 1 but it's up to the mechanic then to test components that could cause this problem.
Just one example i encounted a saxo running rough the only code it came up with was lambda bank1 senser 1 efficency below threshold if someone puerly used that and nothing else would changed the lambda senser when in fact it was misfiring caused by the coil pack resulting in the senser reading a wrong fuel/air mixture after each combustion stroke.
Diagnsotic kits are good but they are a tool of many to find problems with cars not that only thing that should be used. As for the op situation im not the best to advice but i wouldn't be happy with that situation.
Just one example i encounted a saxo running rough the only code it came up with was lambda bank1 senser 1 efficency below threshold if someone puerly used that and nothing else would changed the lambda senser when in fact it was misfiring caused by the coil pack resulting in the senser reading a wrong fuel/air mixture after each combustion stroke.
Diagnsotic kits are good but they are a tool of many to find problems with cars not that only thing that should be used. As for the op situation im not the best to advice but i wouldn't be happy with that situation.
^^^^^^
This
Too many so called 'mechanics' are relying on a piece of 'bosches finest' to try and solve things for them, without understanding the underlying problems and causes..
I had similar symptoms to you, and home diagnosed as a pin prick in a fuel line...
Beware of tech !.....If I were you, I would keep the car now fixed !
What's the point in buying an unknown quantity and repeating the process ??
This
Too many so called 'mechanics' are relying on a piece of 'bosches finest' to try and solve things for them, without understanding the underlying problems and causes..
I had similar symptoms to you, and home diagnosed as a pin prick in a fuel line...
Beware of tech !.....If I were you, I would keep the car now fixed !
What's the point in buying an unknown quantity and repeating the process ??
I simply cannot afford another problem and the E61 BMW seems to have more than it's fair share. I love the car and if I had a bit more money to spare, I'd hang on to it. Also, I do fewer miles these days and quite a lot of short journeys, so a big diesel engine isn't the best fit for me now.
I posted a similar question on a BMW technical forum and had some really useful replies. Apparently on BMW diesels if the diagnostic tool gives an injector fault, it's almost always that the fault is not the injectors, rather the wiring or ECU. If the garage had known this, they would have had the job done in a week at more than half the price. They have been around for over forty years and claim to know these systems very well.
I'm going to push for a large reduction of my bill based on this. I'm not happy to pay out over a grand because they didn't diagnose correctly. I guess my obvious recourse is to ask them if my car would be working now with the old injectors back in. Worryingly, it sounds like they don't have the old parts - I thought this was a legal requirement.
I posted a similar question on a BMW technical forum and had some really useful replies. Apparently on BMW diesels if the diagnostic tool gives an injector fault, it's almost always that the fault is not the injectors, rather the wiring or ECU. If the garage had known this, they would have had the job done in a week at more than half the price. They have been around for over forty years and claim to know these systems very well.
I'm going to push for a large reduction of my bill based on this. I'm not happy to pay out over a grand because they didn't diagnose correctly. I guess my obvious recourse is to ask them if my car would be working now with the old injectors back in. Worryingly, it sounds like they don't have the old parts - I thought this was a legal requirement.
You've got the old parts? They are in the engine reconditioned?
I think you need to stop being so tight, it's a fact of life when you take a car to a garage they don't always hit on the right cause of a complex electrics issue first time.
If money was that tight that now your squirming you should either have done the research first to try to minimise the costs by helping the mechanic, taken it to the main dealer who would have knowledge of the specific car model and thus have back knowledge to find the issue straight away, done the job yourself or sold the car with issues.
I can also imagine the thread you would have posted if they had just done the ecu and the car still occasionally misfired suggesting the idiot garage should have done the injectors at the same time and why should you pay for the work.
I think you need to stop being so tight, it's a fact of life when you take a car to a garage they don't always hit on the right cause of a complex electrics issue first time.
If money was that tight that now your squirming you should either have done the research first to try to minimise the costs by helping the mechanic, taken it to the main dealer who would have knowledge of the specific car model and thus have back knowledge to find the issue straight away, done the job yourself or sold the car with issues.
I can also imagine the thread you would have posted if they had just done the ecu and the car still occasionally misfired suggesting the idiot garage should have done the injectors at the same time and why should you pay for the work.
Only the injector bodies are the old ones - everything else was replaced by them.
If they had done some exploration following the diagnostic and had found the ECU connector was damaged by water ingress, that would clearly be an issue. If there were further problems after that, I would happily pay.
My big worry is that they did the diagnostic and acted on that. Having spoken to a couple of other garages, the overwhelming verdict is, you can't trust the diagnostic readout on these engines, especially when it says injectors. I took the car to them as they are specialists in this area and they would get it done quickly and efficiently. My local garage who referred me to them was shocked that it took six weeks and that they didn't check the connections first.
As far as the squirming goes, at about £900 and 3.5 weeks, I was told that they would only charge me for what had caused the original problem and that any other diagnostic work would be waived. I told them then that I was pretty much at my limit of what I could afford. Then after a connector replacement and replacing some pins, it doubled. It is possible that the injectors were a contributory factor, I'm not saying 100% that they weren't, but the evidence suggests that it was not and my bill could have been significantly cheaper if they had taken a better diagnostic route.
If they had done some exploration following the diagnostic and had found the ECU connector was damaged by water ingress, that would clearly be an issue. If there were further problems after that, I would happily pay.
My big worry is that they did the diagnostic and acted on that. Having spoken to a couple of other garages, the overwhelming verdict is, you can't trust the diagnostic readout on these engines, especially when it says injectors. I took the car to them as they are specialists in this area and they would get it done quickly and efficiently. My local garage who referred me to them was shocked that it took six weeks and that they didn't check the connections first.
As far as the squirming goes, at about £900 and 3.5 weeks, I was told that they would only charge me for what had caused the original problem and that any other diagnostic work would be waived. I told them then that I was pretty much at my limit of what I could afford. Then after a connector replacement and replacing some pins, it doubled. It is possible that the injectors were a contributory factor, I'm not saying 100% that they weren't, but the evidence suggests that it was not and my bill could have been significantly cheaper if they had taken a better diagnostic route.
I'm hard to please, and I would just pay up and move on. it's your fault for not doing your research. I would see it that way if I was missing a large one in the circs. Modern cars and water getting onto electronics is very common now, my son in law is using a Rover Streetwise diesel as a runabout that I got for buttons for exactly that reason. a new BCU and polythene bag fitted and I expect it to last for yesrs.
Edited by SMGB on Thursday 21st February 09:05
I do feel for you and it isn't nice when you are short on money or can't justify spending it.
But a couple of things I can see reading the thread:
- you seem willing to research the problem and phone other garages - AFTER the work has been done. Why on Earth did you not put half the effort into doing this before sending the car to them, or at least before agreeing on the injector replacement?
- remember it is their livelihood too. Money, time and effort has been spent fixing your car. By waiving the costs to save you money, someone else has to lose out. And it might be someone who has less money than you do.
I think all you can do is put it down to experience and the only angle I think you have is the amount of time it's taken. Although if they informed you upfront about time scales even that would be a mute point.
But a couple of things I can see reading the thread:
- you seem willing to research the problem and phone other garages - AFTER the work has been done. Why on Earth did you not put half the effort into doing this before sending the car to them, or at least before agreeing on the injector replacement?
- remember it is their livelihood too. Money, time and effort has been spent fixing your car. By waiving the costs to save you money, someone else has to lose out. And it might be someone who has less money than you do.
I think all you can do is put it down to experience and the only angle I think you have is the amount of time it's taken. Although if they informed you upfront about time scales even that would be a mute point.
I did research as much as I could (considering my lack of auto electrical knowledge).
Before the injectors went off to be done, I phoned them back and asked them if they were sure as it didn't look like an injector problem to me and that it seemed electrical. They assured me that they were right (they are the experts). After the injectors came back and they were struggling to find out what was causing the problem I asked if they checked continuity on the wiring to the sensors and they said they had. Presumably if they had, they would have seen the connector damage.
I'm not sure as a layman how I could have done more research. I told them when it went in that everything I could find about the problem indicated an electrical fault and I gave them as much info as possible.
Before the injectors went off to be done, I phoned them back and asked them if they were sure as it didn't look like an injector problem to me and that it seemed electrical. They assured me that they were right (they are the experts). After the injectors came back and they were struggling to find out what was causing the problem I asked if they checked continuity on the wiring to the sensors and they said they had. Presumably if they had, they would have seen the connector damage.
I'm not sure as a layman how I could have done more research. I told them when it went in that everything I could find about the problem indicated an electrical fault and I gave them as much info as possible.
According to my local garage, 90% of injectors in a running car would fail that test.
Maybe I do need to put it down to experience. This is why I'm looking for some technical insight to help me decide. The technical insight I am getting says they should have found this much quicker and the injectors were a fairly obvious red herring. The non technical insight is saying stop whinging and pay the bill!
Maybe I do need to put it down to experience. This is why I'm looking for some technical insight to help me decide. The technical insight I am getting says they should have found this much quicker and the injectors were a fairly obvious red herring. The non technical insight is saying stop whinging and pay the bill!
misterduncan said:
I did research as much as I could (considering my lack of auto electrical knowledge).
Before the injectors went off to be done, I phoned them back and asked them if they were sure as it didn't look like an injector problem to me and that it seemed electrical. They assured me that they were right (they are the experts). After the injectors came back and they were struggling to find out what was causing the problem I asked if they checked continuity on the wiring to the sensors and they said they had. Presumably if they had, they would have seen the connector damage.
I'm not sure as a layman how I could have done more research. I told them when it went in that everything I could find about the problem indicated an electrical fault and I gave them as much info as possible.
Well this puts a slightly different angle on it. Did they continue with the injector refurb despite you stating it wasn't your preferred route?Before the injectors went off to be done, I phoned them back and asked them if they were sure as it didn't look like an injector problem to me and that it seemed electrical. They assured me that they were right (they are the experts). After the injectors came back and they were struggling to find out what was causing the problem I asked if they checked continuity on the wiring to the sensors and they said they had. Presumably if they had, they would have seen the connector damage.
I'm not sure as a layman how I could have done more research. I told them when it went in that everything I could find about the problem indicated an electrical fault and I gave them as much info as possible.
You could argue that you requested they checked something (which turned out to be the fault) and they didn't until after they had generated additional work.
However I suspect any argument you want to have with them will be an unpleasant experience.
You could tell them a price you are willing to pay and explain the reason why and say if they disagree then you'll wait to see them in court over it. Most likely they won't pursue it and if the reason you aren't wanting to pay the full price is they didn't do something you requested, then you'd probably have a strong case.
However if you had the chance to not have the work done, then you might be on more shaky ground.
I raised my concerns with them in a separate phone call, but then agreed to go with their technical experience (after all that's why I took it to them and didn't do it myself). In hindsight, I wish I'd pushed for them to check the electrics, but they were very assertive that the injectors were the problem. It is shaky ground, which is why I'm sat on the fence trying to decide if I should take the painful legal route or the painful paying route.
misterduncan said:
According to my local garage, 90% of injectors in a running car would fail that test.
That's bks. If the injectors are correctly tested then the result should be very clear, pass or fail. I sympathise with your situation but it's a fact that you may have had a couple of underlying issues with your car that have been picked up by the diagnostics. I suspect the ECU connector was the main issue here but faulty injectors can also cause the symptoms you had, if they failed the testing then what else was the garage supposed to do? If they had refitted them knowing they were faulty and next week it died again you'd not be impressed either?misterduncan said:
I raised my concerns with them in a separate phone call, but then agreed to go with their technical experience (after all that's why I took it to them and didn't do it myself). In hindsight, I wish I'd pushed for them to check the electrics, but they were very assertive that the injectors were the problem. It is shaky ground, which is why I'm sat on the fence trying to decide if I should take the painful legal route or the painful paying route.
Well try settling on a deal first, e.g. pay what you feel is fair and see what they say. Should it escalate you can always pay up and get out of it. The only thing you have to lose is time and the likelihood they won't want you as a future customer.misterduncan said:
According to my local garage, 90% of injectors in a running car would fail that test.
Maybe I do need to put it down to experience. This is why I'm looking for some technical insight to help me decide. The technical insight I am getting says they should have found this much quicker and the injectors were a fairly obvious red herring. The non technical insight is saying stop whinging and pay the bill!
Actually a fair few posters on here giving you the advice to suck it up are very technical. Sorry our opinion doesn't match yours but that's always a risk when you ask.Maybe I do need to put it down to experience. This is why I'm looking for some technical insight to help me decide. The technical insight I am getting says they should have found this much quicker and the injectors were a fairly obvious red herring. The non technical insight is saying stop whinging and pay the bill!
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